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I will tell you, Misguidance, that you are Misguided. I've never even seen a GW store, and I didn't even know they existed until joining DakkaDakka. There's what, maybe Five GW stores in the Continental US? Mostly, from what I recall, concentrated in the major cities of the East Coast. That's the majority of a country that's never seen, and never will see, an official Games Workshop store. Maybe it's an issue of European misconceptions of the size of the US, since we're a lot, lot bigger than Europe. It'd take me six to ten hours to get to the nearest GW store, and that's in my own State.

The stores, from what I've heard, are huge money sinks. They don't sell much product, and are primarily used as gaming table repositories. Remove the stores, and you'd probably see a 0% loss of people playing GW games. Replace all those store empolyees with some sort of GW certification to run tournaments and provide demonstrations at FLGs, you're most likely going to gain a lot, since there's probably at least one FLG within half-hour driving distance of most of the towns and cities in the US, and if GW reduced the overhead cost of carrying their products (with the money saved on owning their own stores and all the infrastructure that entails) that would allow FLGs to advertise on their own, if not passing the savings along to their customers.

And on the issue of Websites, from what I can tell, and who I know, the majority of sales of GW products is online, either through eBay or their own website. I go in my FLG week after week, and the boxes of GW product are getting a pretty thick layer of dust, even as people continue to expand their armies or buy new ones.

So yeah. There's my 2 cents as well.

Anvildude wrote:I will tell you, Misguidance, that you are Misguided. I've never even seen a GW store, and I didn't even know they existed until joining DakkaDakka. There's what, maybe Five GW stores in the Continental US? Mostly, from what I recall, concentrated in the major cities of the East Coast. That's the majority of a country that's never seen, and never will see, an official Games Workshop store. Maybe it's an issue of European misconceptions of the size of the US, since we're a lot, lot bigger than Europe. It'd take me six to ten hours to get to the nearest GW store, and that's in my own State.

I'll be honest- I had no idea there were so few GW stores in the US. Here in the UK they exist in most towns and cities, and are much move visible than most other gaming stores.

Misguidance wrote:

Anvildude wrote:I will tell you, Misguidance, that you are Misguided. I've never even seen a GW store, and I didn't even know they existed until joining DakkaDakka. There's what, maybe Five GW stores in the Continental US? Mostly, from what I recall, concentrated in the major cities of the East Coast. That's the majority of a country that's never seen, and never will see, an official Games Workshop store. Maybe it's an issue of European misconceptions of the size of the US, since we're a lot, lot bigger than Europe. It'd take me six to ten hours to get to the nearest GW store, and that's in my own State.

I'll be honest- I had no idea there were so few GW stores in the US. Here in the UK they exist in most towns and cities, and are much move visible than most other gaming stores.

UK is a bad example even for europe... We dont have any GW store and never had one so by your conclusions the hobby would be inexistant in my little European country Portugal..

Anvildude wrote:There's what, maybe Five GW stores in the Continental US?

?!

There's between 5 and 10 ALONE in the Los Angeles area.

Actual games workshop stores in LA, or places that sell GW figs?

Actual Games Workshop stores.

Weird. It looks like the LA locations are the nearest ones to where I live, a coupel states away (by the store finder on the GW site). And then there's this massive concentration of them.

Yeah, its LA...

It's a shame, the models are getting more and more impressive, yet the gameplay is suffering and the best rules writers are leaving or becoming Black Library writers instead. GW truly is at an impasse, do they continue their current path of maximum profits to absolve themselves of debts (which they achieved this last year) or do they decide that the stone has been wrung for enough blood and start lowering prices?

Airsoft will run you over $300 (US) for a decent gun, battery, and charger. Then you have to get BBs, goggles or a face mask, and possibly tactical gear. It's really easy to drop $500+ on that. Same deal with paintball.

World of Warcraft costs something like $140 just to get all the expansions, plus a $15 monthly fee. A year of WoW will cost you around $200.]

Video games run $40-60. How many offer hundreds of hours of enjoyment? Very few, so you'll probably buy several over the course of a year, oh, and you need a computer or console to play them on...

HOBBIES ARE EXPENSIVE

Try collecting militaria. Numbers matching, 1938 dated Luger? $2800. Or how about a WWII era US Navy Cross? $700-$850. WWII German Iron Cross Second Class (something that was awarded over 2 million times)? $150. Granted, this hobby has great scarcity in it, but it also has massive amounts of supply and demand. I have similar items to these, and I can't "play" with them, they sit in a sealed safe as to not deteriorate.

Collecting sports cards? How about a 1/1 Tom Brady autographed card for $999 on eBay? How about 2010 Topps Five Star? For 5 football cards costs $515

I would consider wargaming a monopolistic competition more than outright monopoly. If they had a true monopoly (which really isn't possible since they're a niche market and a luxury item), their price increases wouldn't allow for anyone to go to any competition.

Amaya wrote:Airsoft will run you over $300 (US) for a decent gun, battery, and charger. Then you have to get BBs, goggles or a face mask, and possibly tactical gear. It's really easy to drop $500+ on that. Same deal with paintball.

World of Warcraft costs something like $140 just to get all the expansions, plus a $15 monthly fee. A year of WoW will cost you around $200.]

Video games run $40-60. How many offer hundreds of hours of enjoyment? Very few, so you'll probably buy several over the course of a year, oh, and you need a computer or console to play them on...

HOBBIES ARE EXPENSIVE

The most expensive one you mention is *still* cheaper than a 1500 point (unpainted!) army. And you can get an airsoft gun for half that (My ex roommate bought a full basic setup for 200$), nobody is going to exclude you from the game because you bought a POS Chinese electric.

Stormrider wrote:Try collecting militaria. Numbers matching, 1938 dated Luger? $2800. Or how about a WWII era US Navy Cross? $700-$850. WWII German Iron Cross Second Class (something that was awarded over 2 million times)? $150. Granted, this hobby has great scarcity in it, but it also has massive amounts of supply and demand. I have similar items to these, and I can't "play" with them, they sit in a sealed safe as to not deteriorate.

Collecting sports cards? How about a 1/1 Tom Brady autographed card for $999 on eBay? How about 2010 Topps Five Star? For 5 football cards costs $515

I would consider wargaming a monopolistic competition more than outright monopoly. If they had a true monopoly (which really isn't possible since they're a niche market and a luxury item), their price increases wouldn't allow for anyone to go to any competition.

You're specifically mentioning some of the most expensive items in that hobby, I can get collectable military rifles for *less* than a hundred dollars (though, without the C&R the shipping would put the price back up there). I can get a pack of football cards for 3$ (ok, the price on those has probably gone up, but I used too). These aren't as nice as the ultra expensive things you mention, but the minimum cost to participate is way way lower than the cost to buy the most expensive stuff.

You can get a 1500 point army for under $300.

The cheapest GW sells figs for is ~25 cents per point, that comes to 525$ There are used options, but airsoft and video games have used options too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, don't forget the books, that's about another 80, pushing the price to field an unpainted army up over 600$.

Requia wrote:The cheapest GW sells figs for is ~25 cents per point, that comes to 525$ There are used options, but airsoft and video games have used options too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, don't forget the books, that's about another 80, pushing the price to field an unpainted army up over 600$.

2 boxes of Khorne Berserkers, 3 Chaos Land Raiders, Chaos Space Marines Codex = $281.

Convert one Berserker to Kharn and you have a decent 1500 point army.

Try again.

Hmm, interesting.

OK, for CSM you can field an army for less than 300$

I'll come back to that argument in 6 months or so when you start getting 5 berserkers for 33$ instead of 12.

Oh and here's another.

2 Warbosses, Ork Army Book, 6 boxes of Nobz, 3 Battlewagons = $405.
Makes a 1925 point army.

All with 4+/5+ saves, WS5, and at least 2 wounds.

Might want to double check on that one, a bunch of the Ork boxes just had the number of models slashed.

I just totaled the cost up on their website.

Requia wrote:

Amaya wrote:Airsoft will run you over $300 (US) for a decent gun, battery, and charger. Then you have to get BBs, goggles or a face mask, and possibly tactical gear. It's really easy to drop $500+ on that. Same deal with paintball.

World of Warcraft costs something like $140 just to get all the expansions, plus a $15 monthly fee. A year of WoW will cost you around $200.]

Video games run $40-60. How many offer hundreds of hours of enjoyment? Very few, so you'll probably buy several over the course of a year, oh, and you need a computer or console to play them on...

HOBBIES ARE EXPENSIVE

The most expensive one you mention is *still* cheaper than a 1500 point (unpainted!) army. And you can get an airsoft gun for half that (My ex roommate bought a full basic setup for 200$), nobody is going to exclude you from the game because you bought a POS Chinese electric.

Stormrider wrote:Try collecting militaria. Numbers matching, 1938 dated Luger? $2800. Or how about a WWII era US Navy Cross? $700-$850. WWII German Iron Cross Second Class (something that was awarded over 2 million times)? $150. Granted, this hobby has great scarcity in it, but it also has massive amounts of supply and demand. I have similar items to these, and I can't "play" with them, they sit in a sealed safe as to not deteriorate.

Collecting sports cards? How about a 1/1 Tom Brady autographed card for $999 on eBay? How about 2010 Topps Five Star? For 5 football cards costs $515

I would consider wargaming a monopolistic competition more than outright monopoly. If they had a true monopoly (which really isn't possible since they're a niche market and a luxury item), their price increases wouldn't allow for anyone to go to any competition.

You're specifically mentioning some of the most expensive items in that hobby, I can get collectable military rifles for *less* than a hundred dollars (though, without the C&R the shipping would put the price back up there). I can get a pack of football cards for 3$ (ok, the price on those has probably gone up, but I used too). These aren't as nice as the ultra expensive things you mention, but the minimum cost to participate is way way lower than the cost to buy the most expensive stuff.

Certainly, do we consider Games Workshop product a top-of-the-line product or not? I do in some respects, (PP has some excellent models and some very interesting rules, but I personally have no interest in collecting or playing Warmachine/Hordes) but in others they are lacking (balance, corporate maneuvers in the last 2 years, other parts of the hobby).

I presume you speak of a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 for less than $100? I've seen far too many of those damn things, gun dealers around here can't give them away.

I can tell you why the tools paint glue ect cost so much,
you pay a PREMIUM FOR THE CITADEL LABEL!
You can get more for less at other model shops and different
companys!

Hi all.
Well if you compare prices like for like.
EG just stay in the minature wargames market.

Mantic RESIN Undead cavalry £2.50.(Full regiment of 10 for £25.)

Games workshop metal riders and '1992' plastic undead horse, £7.70 or £8.70 for command models.(Full regiment of 10 for £80.)

Mantic plastic undead warriors , elite warriors , zombies, ghouls can all be purchased NEW for 50p each or less!(60 minatures for £30!)

Games workshop Skeletons, (£31.00 for 20) Grave guard (£41.00 for 20) zombies (£18.50 for 20) ghouls (£31.00 for 20.)

Mantics Alternative Undead Warhost, £30 for 20 skeletons , 20 elite skeletons and 20 ghouls, would cost £103 from GW!
And Mantics rules and army lists are free to down load....

Games Workshop PLC charge so much money for thier products because they have an out of date buisness strategy that fails to work, but they continue to pick the path of easiest options ,(raise the retail prices.)As they have let the option to correct the errors pass them by , and correcting them now would hurt short term sales.

GW plc have locked themselves into long slow decline, due to the incompetance of the corperate managers who do not understand thier products, thier buisness, or thier potential customer base.

TTFN

Why do they charge so much?

Because in a capitalist style economy, they charge what their target market will pay, and they can get it, too.

People complain, but they keep buying stuff at those prices, so the prices stay up.

(*NOT everyone knows how (or is able) to buy from overseas retailers to save money.)

Uh, people are *not* continuing to pay GW prices, GW sales revenue is falling despite the price hikes.

Games workshop raises the prices cus they know that the people playing it now won't just leave. Will people stop driving cars if the price of gas goes higher? most people go with it, and few will leave. thats just the way it is. And the more the people leave, the higher the price goes up to make up for the people who have left.

But if fuel prices hiked as much, as quickly as GW product did, yes, people would stop driving. It's been suggested that as soon as fuel prices in the US hit $4.50 a Gallon or so, we'll start seeing significant drops in the number of cars on the road. There is a point where a person will say 'Screw it, I'm walking' instead of paying for the gas, and there's a point where gamers will say 'Screw it, I'm buying from someone else' instead of buying overpriced models for an undersupported game. I've already hit that point, and if I wasn't so eager to scratchbuild, I'd probably never have gotten into the game.

Eh.

If you like the system but dislike the price just play smaller scale engagements.

I have had a helluva time recently playing Necromunda with some friends around the shop.

Requia wrote:Weird. It looks like the LA locations are the nearest ones to where I live, a coupel states away (by the store finder on the GW site). And then there's this massive concentration of them.

That is because they are concentrated where the population is concentrated, in major urban areas.

Requia wrote:Uh, people are *not* continuing to pay GW prices, GW sales revenue is falling despite the price hikes.

Yes, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The corporate edifice that is GW is slowly disappearing up its own sphincter.

chromedog wrote:

Requia wrote:Uh, people are *not* continuing to pay GW prices, GW sales revenue is falling despite the price hikes.

Yes, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The corporate edifice that is GW is slowly disappearing up its own sphincter.

I think they could in theory make more profit by reducing prices and increasing the volume of sales. But I would guess the threshold for that is not a small amount of money away, they would have to reduce prices substantially. They have been on the road of increasing prices to combat falling sales for too long now, people would not swarm to them for the sake of a few quid. As the biggest wargames manufacturer out there they could in theory lead the miniature market in mass production rather than continually make themselves the most premium of wargames manufacturers but it requires a total rethink of everything. They should be able to turn economy to scale to their advantage IMO.

I would imagine something of this magnitude would only happen if GW were sold off and there was the investment for an overhaul. The current management can only run with what they have been doing for years because while they make money and keep the company afloat one year to the next, they can't break out of the cycle of using price increases to combat falling sales. Their profits are fairly marginal which doesn't give flexibility to change strategy, and the continual price increases above inflation are ultimately unsustainable which will lead to a gradual decline.