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Until this thread was made, I didn't realize premades did so poorly in the gaming community.

NAVARRO wrote: Look were it got them.

Mismanagement and a subsequent buying by a company that didn't know what the company really was(they thought it was a toy company, not a game company according to the old staff) is what did them in ultimately.

But blaming something else without knowing the real facts is good, too.

it would have to be of good quality not crappy paint jobs like heroclix SWM and the like for me to even consider it. most likey not tho it would get boing seeing all models from a certain range all painted the same as every1 elses

Platuan4th wrote:

NAVARRO wrote: Look were it got them.

Mismanagement and a subsequent buying by a company that didn't know what the company really was(they thought it was a toy company, not a game company according to the old staff) is what did them in ultimately.

But blaming something else without knowing the real facts is good, too.

Lets not get into another Rackham debate shall we not?

Real fact was that shifting to PPP was the MAIN trigger to Rackham's mass abandon from everyone... but yeah the shifting fom metals to PP may be called "Mismanagement" if you want to call it that... Funny how even now people try to defend the indefensable.

NAVARRO wrote:Funny how even now people try to defend the indefensable.

And yet, AT-43 sold better than Confrontation did as metals.

You're right, this isn't the place to get into arguments, but the fact still is that you're basing your argument on your own opinion while I got information from the people actually involved(and burned by the new owners). Yes, they'll admit that switching Confrontation from metal to plastic hurt sales, but overall, AT-43 helped them more than any loss from Confrontation hurt(especially thanks to Americans). The company wasn't in the best place before the switch happened, they just didn't tell everyone.

The company would have closed years ago if PPP AT-43 hadn't existed. As well, their last attempt for non-PPP(Legends) went horribly, with only 2 models(the giant Goat demon and the Therian Overseer) selling in any real quantity.

Platuan4th wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Funny how even now people try to defend the indefensable.

And yet, AT-43 sold better than Confrontation did as metals.

You're right, this isn't the place to get into arguments, but the fact still is that you're basing your argument on your own opinion while I got information from the people actually involved(and burned by the new owners). Yes, they'll admit that switching Confrontation from metal to plastic hurt sales, but overall, AT-43 helped them more than any loss from Confrontation hurt(especially thanks to Americans). The company wasn't in the best place before the switch happened, they just didn't tell everyone.

The company would have closed years ago if PPP AT-43 hadn't existed. As well, their last attempt for non-PPP(Legends) went horribly, with only 2 models(the giant Goat demon and the Therian Overseer) selling in any real quantity.

lol Yes that, no point in getting on the same debate for the 12982345928572985th time... yes you have inside info and Im a bumble bee that just landed here crapping personal opinions based on nothing.... Be happy your totally right like you have always been towards rackham all these years... funny how your optimism didnt saved them from the inevitable.

"What if GW released pre assembled and painted models..."

if they released pre assembled and painted models it wouldnt be a hobby. yeah it would save people time and frustrastion but thats part of the hobby. surely it would be like takeing games and giving you game completed saves with the disc, or people selling books that just have the end and nothing else.

Flashman wrote:A no from me. As time consuming as it is, modelling and painting are a big part of the hobby. Preassembled, prepainted miniatures would take away its soul. You may as well play with Star Wars figures.

Just as an observation, the operating words here are, "...part of the hobby". Try to keep in mind that GW has created two things in one: A hobby, and a game.

Modeling and painting are a big part of the hobby. I think it'll be very hard to find somebody to disagree with that. I certainly agree.

However, pre-painted minis would allow people to play the game just for the game's sake. This would appeal to a large chunk of the GW gamer market. How many unpainted/unassembled/unbased armies do people field or face in FLGS and basements around the world?

For the hobbiest, pre-paints = bad. For the gamer, pre-paints (may) = good.



King Ghidorah

I love painting my models but if GW released their metal models already assembled I would happily snap those up. I HATE HATE working with metal models. I don't see a reason why for example the blister packs don't just come with the models already as one piece. But painted? No. If I didn't get toi paint my models 90% of the fun of this hobby goes out the window for me.

I would be fine if they still sold disassembled and unpainted models. Modeling is half the fun for me. Half the models i own i bought just because i thought they would be fun to paint.

Prepaints don't really do so well, honestly.

Personally, I think it is because of the factors of personalization, and your time and efforts put into YOUR army, not just plopping down a couple of bucks for the same guys that tom dick and harry buy, but YOUR army.

The examples that we've been subjected to as far as prepaints do we've had from pretty good, to absolutly craptastic, and the games either fall by the wayside and after about three or four months disappear, or they evolve into something like a train wreck.

As far as an idea goes, Prepaints is one of the worst.

Only for horde infantry, it's too uneconomical to do it for entire armies. Plus it's disallows quite a bit of variety.

Grot 6 wrote:... and the games either fall by the wayside and after about three or four months disappear, or they evolve into something like a train wreck.

Mageknight lasted more than 10 years.
Star Wars Minis lasted 6, and was canned for colateral reasons rather than because it was doing badly.
D&D minis lasted around 10 years, and it's unclear whether it was canned due to poor performance or simply due to a re-focussing of the D&D range.
Mechwarrior... off the top of my head, I think is still going, after at least 6 years.
Heroclix is still going after 10.

Auxellion wrote:Terrible idea


I played a game called "Mageknight" for a few years when I was a kid. Lots of "My Big dragon figure fighting... the same exact one."

I think of the "GW Hobby" more then the "I play 40k... the game... not the hobby". A bet a majority of the people posting here that want pre-assembled/painted figures don't have fully painted armies and can appretiate the end result.

This. I remember this game, I collected them back in the early 2000's I also collected some of those halo prepainted minis. Both games were awful, the quality of the minis was subpar, the paintjob sucked. Most prepainted minis games cater toward younger kids who dont have the patience or skill to model and paint, the minis are always poor quality and everybody ends up having the same generic crap.

Personally I agree that, as an addition to the regular range, this is a good idea, and this could be useful in horde armies like Skaven, Goblins, Imperial Guard or Orks.

I know there are some things as well I'd much rather not have the displeasure of assembling and/or painting. I do enjoy painting and assembling stuff most of the time, but with evil creations such as Terradons or god forbid, the Goblin Warboss on a Gigantic Spider, I'd pay almost double not to have to deal with that again

insaniak wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:... and the games either fall by the wayside and after about three or four months disappear, or they evolve into something like a train wreck.

Mageknight lasted more than 10 years.
Star Wars Minis lasted 6, and was canned for colateral reasons rather than because it was doing badly.
D&D minis lasted around 10 years, and it's unclear whether it was canned due to poor performance or simply due to a re-focussing of the D&D range.
Mechwarrior... off the top of my head, I think is still going, after at least 6 years.
Heroclix is still going after 10.

Stop inserting facts into the pre-painting bash!

Flashman wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Flashman wrote:A no from me. As time consuming as it is, modelling and painting are a big part of the hobby. Preassembled, prepainted miniatures would take away its soul. You may as well play with Star Wars figures.

While I wouldn't buy prepainted figures because I enjoy personalization, to many people playing the game is a much bigger part of the hobby. Why the modeling/painting community gets up in arms over this in thread after thread is beyond me.

I was quite relaxed when I made that observation, hardly up in arms at all actually

Sorry Flashman, I didn't mean to say you were up in arms in particular, but that there have been several threads discussing playing with painted vs. unpainted miniatures and it seems the must-paint crowd gets pretty heated toward the hobbyist who prefers the game over the modeling/painting experience.

If GW released prepainted mini's I wouldn't mind assuming the kits are still widely available. If they went exclusively to prepainted I'd never purchase a single GW set again. The painting and assembling is the part I like, take it away and I'll go somewhere else.

The Night Stalker wrote:Most prepainted minis games cater toward younger kids who dont have the patience or skill to model and paint,

Most prepainted games are really not aimed specifically at kids at all. From my experience, they tend to sell more to adults with no time or inclination for modelling, or who like the subject matter of the game. Star Wars and D&D minis were most definitely not aimed at younger kids, nor were AT43, Confrontation, or Monsterpocalypse. Mechwarrior drew away a certain amount of the adult 40K crowd, who just wanted something quick and easy to play when the 40K rules were wallowing in the mess that was late 3rd/early 4th edition. And how many younger kids are going to be the slightest bit interested in Axis and Allies? No idea on the land-based variety, but the Naval expansions are far too complex for young kids to be picking them up on the fly, even if they were remotely interested in WWII naval battles when there are so many more kid-friendly settings out there.

And that's not even mentioning Ex Illis, the game where you need a laptop and an engineering degree to play. Or whatever that mass Fantasy battles game was that's probably gone away by now. Armies of something or other.

the minis are always poor quality

The minis released for AT43 and Confrontation were arguably not that hugely inferior to the metals they replaced. It was more the paintjobs that let them down rather than the sculpts. While there are certainly some dogs, there are quite a lot of very good sculpts in the Star Wars and D&D ranges. Even some of the Mageknight sculpts (mostly larger minis) were actually pretty good.

and everybody ends up having the same generic crap.

That's entirely down to the players. There was quite a strong modelling community on the Star Wars miniatures message boards, with people repainting, reposing and building or converting custom figures.

The fact that minis come pre-assembled and painted doesn't mean that they have to stay that way.

insaniak wrote:The fact that minis come pre-assembled and painted doesn't mean that they have to stay that way.

Hear, hear!

Bottom line for me is, I would rather play an army of GW pre-paints than an army of grey, headless models. I was in an FLGS awhile back and there was a dude playing Marines with dixie cups for drop pods! Is this somehow preferable to playing against pre-paints made by GW?



As far as pre-paints themselves, bear in mind that we're talking about GW-made pre-paints. Say all you want about GW, they do make a high quality product. They always deliver models that rival any (most) other company. I firmly believe that pre-painted models created by GW would be crappy, Chinese sweat-shop calibre models. The flagship company for our hobby, the face of wargaming, if you will... No way they would put out poopy minis.

As long as nothing changes with their current line, why would anyone give a f*** if they added a pre-painted product? If you don't like them, don't buy them. End of story. If you're against the idea wholesale, then know... it is YOUR fault I have to play grey, one armed-headless Plague Warriors or bases with D. Eldar warrior legs.



King Ghidorah

I still believe without a doubt that a prepainted/preassembled range would never catch on with GW. It is simply could not be profitable, if this were to happen what would dictate the quality of the miniatures, you could either end up with two different scenarios, the first being cheap, rubbery, and poorly painted imports or factory made products. But on the other hand high quality prepaits could exist but the price of an individual mini would nearly triple, a box of tactical marines could go from 22$ to nearly 60$ since the labor cost for the artist would no doubtly be high.

That problem aside who or what would decide what armies/color schemes get box sets? For space marines there could be a UM, BT, DA, BA, IF box sets. and thats just a few of the well known color schemes what about more obscure ones. What would determine what the minis would look like? would they have different poses? weapons? armor? or will it just be 5 or 10 of the same soldier? The costs would be finominal every race would need box sets, and every box would need its own individual cover art, packaging, and printing.

How would vehicle kits work? how would weapon options, upgrades both vehicle and infantry work?

Finally I feel that introducing premade models would do the game a horrible injustice. So much of this game is about customization, making you army truly YOURS, mainlining everything into premade pieces would make everything feel more like a board game. And here is a thought for all of you who complain about gray models and unbuilt things, it is YOUR choice and yours alone to paint your minis, i have seen my share of horrid things on the table top but I have no authority to correct that player, its their army and instead of being so concerned with other peoples gak, I pour all my effort and creativity into making my things look good. And believe me its a great feeling when you are at a store and someone comes up to you and complimets your stuff, I have put alot of work and effort into my armies and prepainted minatures would kill the tad bit of originallity that this game has left.

/rant

insaniak wrote:
And that's not even mentioning Ex Illis, the game where you need a laptop and an engineering degree to play. Or whatever that mass Fantasy battles game was that's probably gone away by now. Armies of something or other.

I think you're referring to Arcane Legions with that last bit, in which case, only the Boosters(Characters and "rare" or "uncommon" units) and Legendary units(Dragons, Sphinx, Ballistae) are prepainted(though you can buy pre-hand painted versions of the Infantry and Cavalry sets at a premium on their site). The Booster units are painted much to the quality of Mage Knight figures were, but the Legends(at least the Dragons, which is what I have) are painted to Monsterpocalypse(or better) standards, which mean they look really good and don't need a touch up or repaint(unless you want them in different colors, of course).

Don't forget that Heroscape(even though I hate the game) ran succesfully for a good 6 years before being shut down by Hasbro last year. Hell, that on was even played regularly at one of the FLGS around here.

People, adults certainly, do buy painted models. I see it at wargames shows, if you haven't the time or ability, or really like the paint job then people will buy them.

I found out the other day that Warlord Games have recently offered painted Romans.

http://shop.warlordgames.co.uk/battle-ready-roman-legionaries-24-4673-p.asp

These are 24 for £100, or £4 a pop near enough. A regular box of 30 costs £17 or 56p each.

They seem a good tabletop standard but the markup for painting is 8 fold. I think hopes of GW doing boxes of Marines on even a 3 fold increase is somewhat optimistic.

If I was really going to wimp out and just buy a painted army. I'd buy everything I want and send them out to commission painters like Les or Blacksun.

Hi all.
I do think that a range of pre assembled-painted minatures alongside minature kits would be fine.

I do find it odd that people who convert and paint , but dont play the game .
Are seen in a 'better light' than those that just want to play the game.

I suppose it appeals to GW plc to have a customer that buys all its products (rule ,codex and army books for fluff and inspiration.)
And expects mimimum support from the company.

Where as gamers want constant updates and equal support for all races and a reasonable amount of ballance and game play.
They are so demanding in comparision....

When the asthetic plays such a large part of the game as it deoas in 40k, the more painted armies , the better...(even bog standard prepaints are beter than the grey hoard.)#

TTFN.

Ghidorah wrote:... it is YOUR fault I have to play grey, one armed-headless Plague Warriors or bases with D. Eldar warrior legs.



King Ghidorah

You don't have to play against any army that offends your seemingly tender sensibilities. Just decline the game. Or only enter tourneys with paint requirements. QQing over other people's armies just makes you look like an elitist.

I would buy the pre-paints. I don't see why GW couldn't do two lines that can be played together.

And I see that Mage Knight is being brought back by the new Whiz Kids.

Ouze wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mark1130 wrote:What if GW released pre assembled and painted models...

If they did that then they couldn't sell you overpriced paints, glue and hobby tools.

Is it a fact that the paint is overpriced? It's generally comparable in size, quality, and cost to Vallejo, Reaper, and PP's line of paints.

I find all of those overpriced. I buy $.67 acrylic paint from Hobby Lobby, and over the last few years I've only had maybe 3 crappy bottles. Unless it's a specific color that I can't match, or I need something like a wash I've stopped buying GW or Vallejo paint.

Mark1130 wrote:How would you feel? Would having the option of buying the miniture you want already assembled and painted (like hero clix ect. ect.) intise you to do more with 40k then you do now?

What do ya think? Would ya like to see this someday?

My opinion:

Yes. I would love this to happen. I could finally buy myself my dream Tyranid army, and not have to assemble and paint a buttload of minitures.

No. It would reduce my already low gaming time even further.

Honestly, I want GW to bring back the "3 colors and based" rule as a "3 colors, based and not look like poo" rule. Too many WAAC players and dumb kids with primed (at best) models dirtying up the place now that they don't have to paint.

And most of the models that are painted are so ruined that they're not even worth the effort of buying second hand for $5 and cleaning up when the kid gets the Warhammer kicked out of him after 3 weeks.

I can see why some people find it attractive, but its definitely not for me.
I'd prefer the system to stay how it is; those who do not wish to assemble/oaint their minis have the option of many, many services offering different levels of quality and price to suit every pocket.