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The lore is the only thing that makes 40k worth paying attention to.
You will never convince me otherwise-- I am a roleplayer at heart, and have always been. In fact, Dark Heresy is probably the main reason that I'm still interested in 40k right now.
Without the lore, 40k is nothing but a half-assed ruleset with half-assed unbalanced armies and half-assed overpriced and frequently unattractive miniatures. With the lore, it is an extremely memorable setting with powerful themes, epic battles, and infinite potential for interesting stories. You can toss the lore aside all you want, it is your loss-- but without it, 40k is less than snake gak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/03 11:02:17
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Slarg232 wrote:
You know what I hope? Short of him being fired, Matt Ward writing the Chaos Space Marine Codex. His job is to make the army sound badass enough so they can sell lots of them..... What is he going to do for Chaos now that Mortarion has had a named carved into his CHEST!
I'd be happy with Matt Ward writing the CSM codex and turning our dreadnoughts into invincible killing machines with lascannon shooting blissgivers protruding from all 8 sides of the Bagua, berzerkers into powerweaponed, powerarmoured genestealers with I7, fleet and reroll fails to hit, plague marines into 23 point dreadnoughts, thousand sons into lords of change with 4 AP1 doombolts a turn, each, and no psychic tests, defilers with 14AP all around and twin linked battlecannons, 'SupaReapa' Chaos Autocannons (St9 Heavy 4 AP 2, of course), bloodthirsters with fleet, furious charge, FNP, flying, and a 2++, Demonic flying land raiders with BS 5, dual twin linked multimelta non scattering obliterators, chaos chimeras and razorbacks made of the stuff of pure chaos and has 4++ save to all penetrating hits, fluff where abaddon comes to terra on a flying carpet, bats the custodes with the broken, limp, corpse of Rouboute Guilliman while Kharn and Fabius Bile play outfield, proceeds to the Golden Throne, drops trou, and lays a Cleveland Steamer on the Emperor's lap before tap dancing back to the warp whilst singing 'Hello! Ma Baby' with an a capella accompaniment of five bloodletters beatboxing a drum and bass groove while a choir of demonettes sing a catchy hook.
Yeah, I could live with Matt Ward writing one more codex.
The lore is the only thing that makes 40k worth paying attention to.
You will never convince me otherwise-- I am a roleplayer at heart, and have always been. In fact, Dark Heresy is probably the main reason that I'm still interested in 40k right now.
Without the lore, 40k is nothing but a half-assed ruleset with half-assed unbalanced armies and half-assed overpriced and frequently unattractive miniatures. With the lore, it is an extremely memorable setting with powerful themes, epic battles, and infinite potential for interesting stories. You can toss the lore aside all you want, it is your loss-- but without it, 40k is less than snake gak.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the fluff and will discuss fluff all day with those people I play with(and people on the internet) that also love the fluff. I too am a role-player at heart and most of my armies(not my BA, they got built purely because I love the Dreadnought model) are built around the fluff I write for the army.
However, for most people the game itself works just fine without any story. The fluff is just that: fluff that makes the game about more than just rules.
And it appears this discussion is being held in 2 threads, as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/04/03 15:18:08
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Didn't you guys hear? Matt ward used the tardis to travel back in time through the warp to invent the tardis and the warp and generally mess with stuff... AM I DOIN ET RITE MATT!!!11!!1
Slarg232 wrote:
You know what I hope? Short of him being fired, Matt Ward writing the Chaos Space Marine Codex. His job is to make the army sound badass enough so they can sell lots of them..... What is he going to do for Chaos now that Mortarion has had a named carved into his CHEST!
I'd be happy with Matt Ward writing the CSM codex and turning our dreadnoughts into invincible killing machines with lascannon shooting blissgivers protruding from all 8 sides of the Bagua, berzerkers into powerweaponed, powerarmoured genestealers with I7, fleet and reroll fails to hit, plague marines into 23 point dreadnoughts, thousand sons into lords of change with 4 AP1 doombolts a turn, each, and no psychic tests, defilers with 14AP all around and twin linked battlecannons, 'SupaReapa' Chaos Autocannons (St9 Heavy 4 AP 2, of course), bloodthirsters with fleet, furious charge, FNP, flying, and a 2++, Demonic flying land raiders with BS 5, dual twin linked multimelta non scattering obliterators, chaos chimeras and razorbacks made of the stuff of pure chaos and has 4++ save to all penetrating hits, fluff where abaddon comes to terra on a flying carpet, bats the custodes with the broken, limp, corpse of Rouboute Guilliman while Kharn and Fabius Bile play outfield, proceeds to the Golden Throne, drops trou, and lays a Cleveland Steamer on the Emperor's lap before tap dancing back to the warp whilst singing 'Hello! Ma Baby' with an a capella accompaniment of five bloodletters beatboxing a drum and bass groove while a choir of demonettes sing a catchy hook.
Yeah, I could live with Matt Ward writing one more codex.
Some of those things don't sound horribly outrageous
It wouldn't be that crazy to think that we might see a couple things similar to what he's done with GK. Some sort of HQ that unlocks Traitors as Troops choices (that doesn't use up FOC), and some sort of guy who allows you to summon daemons from him (like a WWP) would be cool additions to an otherwise 'spiky' marine codex :3
The lore is the only thing that makes 40k worth paying attention to.
You will never convince me otherwise-- I am a roleplayer at heart, and have always been. In fact, Dark Heresy is probably the main reason that I'm still interested in 40k right now.
Without the lore, 40k is nothing but a half-assed ruleset with half-assed unbalanced armies and half-assed overpriced and frequently unattractive miniatures. With the lore, it is an extremely memorable setting with powerful themes, epic battles, and infinite potential for interesting stories. You can toss the lore aside all you want, it is your loss-- but without it, 40k is less than snake gak.
Pretty much have to agree with Melissia here...with out the fluff 40k basicly devolves into nothing more than an assembly line of optimized,waac,plastic pieces.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
Although the fluff is not strictly necessary I feel that without it
this game would suck. The fluff is what got me into this game and the fluff is why I love it.
"Wherever you tread, tread lightly. We are closer than you think and our blades are sharp"
I quit 40K for about 8 months because the game ceased to hold my attention. This wasn't helped by the fact I play Necrons, and in my 2 years of gaming have only won 2 games, but I just found the system boring.
I came back for the fluff. The games are a means to an end for me now, I'm mainly interested in the story. I don't like my Necrons teaming up with Tyranids in a 2v2 because it defies fluff, I don't like watching IG fight SM. The fluff for 40K used to be epic, and I loved it. Matt Ward is single-handedly sucking away the only reason I play this game.
Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts
Humbaba wrote:Although the fluff is not strictly necessary I feel that without it
this game would suck. The fluff is what got me into this game and the fluff is why I love it.
Agreed. The fluff is the main reason I play 40k and not war machine.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Melissia wrote:Without the lore, 40k is nothing but a half-assed ruleset with half-assed unbalanced armies and half-assed overpriced and frequently unattractive miniatures. With the lore, it is an extremely memorable setting with powerful themes, epic battles, and infinite potential for interesting stories. You can toss the lore aside all you want, it is your loss-- but without it, 40k is less than snake gak.
This doesn't happen often, but yeah, Melissia's bang on the money here.
40K as a game is considerably sub-par, where selling more models has become more important than making as good a game as they can make. Without its lore it would be worthless.
Bull. The rules don't require ANY back story to be playable, and as I pointed out, there ARE people who ignore it entirely and could care less about it existing that DO play.
Like you then?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/04 13:00:18
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Brother SRM wrote:The GK/Mat Ward stuff has gotten to be a bit much in my opinion.
Yeah, I know exactly how you felt. Just another typical nerdrage train with everyone piling on, I thought when I first saw the Mattrage popping up like worms after a rain.
Then I actually read some of the GK fluff. That guy is terrible. I don't understand how this is getting approved by whatever committee or editor they have.
Brother SRM wrote:Doesn't mean you have to play that army, and if you want to you can skip over the wackier stuff. Whatevs.
The damage he has done to some of the more recent codexes is hardly going to be limited to the people who have to play them. Sure, you can ignore the fluff, but you can't ignore the fact you're now going to be playing against deep striking land raiders and other sundry nonsense.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Are people saying there is something in the fluff that does not make sense?
That's inconceivable!
Sorry, had to.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Yeah I'm with Melissia on this as well, been playing 40K for nigh on 23yrs. Seriously, without the background and the rich story to keep me interested I'd be long gone.
It's why I thought MageKnight was utter rubbish, but totally adored Marvel based Heroclix. Both play very similar, same style of game, but one has the deep rich backstory of you playing with the characters of the Marvel universe. The other is a random world with little to no actually unique or interesting ideas.
If GW turned around tomorrow and said, background means nothing, its 99% about the game now, I'd be gone.
Hell I've done it before. With the WoD, I thought Werewolf the Apocalypse, Vampire the Masquerade etc had some of the most interesting Horror Vamp/Were ideas in recent times.
Then they shift to nwod, focus more on a stronger ruleset, drop the metaplot to a bare minimum, and I was out of a setting I'd collected for nearly 11yrs spending thousands on, in less than a year.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/04 15:59:14
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
This stuff about the GK fluff shocked me enough that today I went out and read the Codex. Here are the major holes I found (Don't unspoiler if you don't want to be crying yourself to sleep tonight):
Spoiler:
1. Malcador transported an entire moon into the Warp and anchored it there, bcos hes majik. 2. Grey Knights use alien allies regularly, and alien technology. They don't get blueprints and recreate it, they just ask nicely. 3. The Grey Knights yanked a moon of Mars out of its orbit and put it in orbit around Titan. Just 'cos. 4. Grey Knights are such a secret that they are prepared to kill more people to preserve their secrecy than the Daemons that they slew could have possibly done themselves. If Guardsmen ask the Imperium for help against Daemons, and Grey Knights arrive, the Grey Knights will execute each and every Guardsmen from that planet. This could extend to an Exterminatus. 5. In a battle for Armageddon, they mindwiped hundreds of Space Wolves, if not every Space Wolf, killed everyone on 3 entire planets and blew 12 IG troopships out of the sky to ensure that they're still a secret. And killed 20 Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperial Navy listening stations on the offchance they got wind that something was up. 6. In an attempt to kill Tzeentch's Changeling, they evacuated the planet and banished all the Daemons. However, they realised that the Changeling must have gotten away on a refugee ship, so they destroyed all the refugees, thus making their saving of the planet utterly futile. 7. It is mentioned that Sisters of Battle turned to Chaos, even though it has been stated on more than one occassion in the past that in the entire history of the Sisters only one ever turned to Chaos, and that was only after a long time anyway. This is probably the easiest to swallow as it is simple retcon, but still. 8. Some SoB tried to fight off Daemon forces and couldn't manage it. Some turned to Chaos, most remained loyal. The Grey Knights arrived and the first thing they did was slaughter every single remaining Sister and smeared their blood on their armour in an attempt to keep Daemons away. 9. Draigo carved the name of his predecessor on a Daemon Primarch's heart. 10. Commander Dante agreed to let the Grey Knights mindwipe the entire Blood Angels after they had to ally against Chaos. 11. The Grey Knights couldn't win a 3-way battle between themselves, Tyranids and Daemons, so they ordered the temple they were fighting in to be bombarded from orbit, but survived the barrage bombs because their armour is so good.
Not happy right now. To avoid intellectual property claims, please, all credit to the outstanding writing that I paraphrased in this post goes to Matt Ward. I wouldn't wish to deny him any of the glory of his magnificent codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/04 16:24:12
Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts
Brother SRM wrote:Doesn't mean you have to play that army, and if you want to you can skip over the wackier stuff. Whatevs.
The damage he has done to some of the more recent codexes is hardly going to be limited to the people who have to play them. Sure, you can ignore the fluff, but you can't ignore the fact you're now going to be playing against deep striking land raiders and other sundry nonsense.
This is the problem, it's not like you can just ignore it. You can avoid reading the codex that you don't want to but eventually you are going to have to play someone who is using new avoided shiny codex of death and you're going to be like .. is that even in there, how can that be allowed ?!?!?!
The fluff that Ward has written doesn't just effect the respective armies that he has written the codex for ... I mean Necron Lords high fiving Blood Angels for an excellent double teaming on the Tyranids, First founding Chapters leg Humping Guilliman other than the Ultramarines because he's the absolute bestest. None of this is good, some of what made the races that race is being taken away from them and changing them into something that they should never ever be.
I know things have to change, but a little consistency and adherence to some of the already well established fluff would be appreciated.
But yeah I went into GW on the 1st April and saw the Grey Knights codex and was like read it and was like then remembering the date. I asked my buddy at the store if someone had swapped the inside with some fanfic and he was all and then I
Not a true story but in the Warp Matt Ward laughed
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/04/04 16:35:18
Scarey Nerd wrote:This stuff about the GK fluff shocked me enough that today I went out and read the Codex. Here are the major holes I found (Don't unspoiler if you don't want to be crying yourself to sleep tonight):
Spoiler:
1. Malcador transported an entire moon into the Warp and anchored it there, bcos hes majik.
2. Grey Knights use alien allies regularly, and alien technology. They don't get blueprints and recreate it, they just ask nicely.
3. The Grey Knights yanked a moon of Mars out of its orbit and put it in orbit around Titan. Just 'cos.
4. Grey Knights are such a secret that they are prepared to kill more people to preserve their secrecy than the Daemons that they slew could have possibly done themselves. If Guardsmen ask the Imperium for help against Daemons, and Grey Knights arrive, the Grey Knights will execute each and every Guardsmen from that planet. This could extend to an Exterminatus.
5. In a battle for Armageddon, they mindwiped hundreds of Space Wolves, if not every Space Wolf, killed everyone on 3 entire planets and blew 12 IG troopships out of the sky to ensure that they're still a secret. And killed 20 Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperial Navy listening stations on the offchance they got wind that something was up.
6. In an attempt to kill Tzeentch's Changeling, they evacuated the planet and banished all the Daemons. However, they realised that the Changeling must have gotten away on a refugee ship, so they destroyed all the refugees, thus making their saving of the planet utterly futile.
7. It is mentioned that Sisters of Battle turned to Chaos, even though it has been stated on more than one occassion in the past that in the entire history of the Sisters only one ever turned to Chaos, and that was only after a long time anyway. This is probably the easiest to swallow as it is simple retcon, but still.
8. Some SoB tried to fight off Daemon forces and couldn't manage it. Some turned to Chaos, most remained loyal. The Grey Knights arrived and the first thing they did was slaughter every single remaining Sister and smeared their blood on their armour in an attempt to keep Daemons away.
9. Draigo carved the name of his predecessor on a Daemon Primarch's heart.
10. Commander Dante agreed to let the Grey Knights mindwipe the entire Blood Angels after they had to ally against Chaos.
11. The Grey Knights couldn't win a 3-way battle between themselves, Tyranids and Daemons, so they ordered the temple they were fighting in to be bombarded from orbit, but survived the barrage bombs because their armour is so good.
Not happy right now. To avoid intellectual property claims, please, all credit to the outstanding writing that I paraphrased in this post goes to Matt Ward. I wouldn't wish to deny him any of the glory of his magnificent codex.
In a wonderful twist of irony i'm personally denying even the existence of GK's and this codex....
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Grimtuff wrote:In a wonderful twist of irony i'm personally denying even the existence of GK's and this codex....
Then you might be spared the wrath of Draigo. Or he'll exterminatus Terra because he's realised the Emperor knows about the Grey Knights. 'Bout 50/50 really.
Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts
I am honestly not going to believe what has been written here until I see this codex for myself because this sounds Way to outrageous. I knew about the heart carving on Mortarion..., but some of this other stuff? No
Kilkrazy wrote:There's nothing like a good splutter of rage first thing in the morning to get you all revved up for the day.
Scarey Nerd wrote:This stuff about the GK fluff shocked me enough that today I went out and read the Codex. Here are the major holes I found (Don't unspoiler if you don't want to be crying yourself to sleep tonight):
Spoiler:
1. Malcador transported an entire moon into the Warp and anchored it there, bcos hes majik.
2. Grey Knights use alien allies regularly, and alien technology. They don't get blueprints and recreate it, they just ask nicely.
3. The Grey Knights yanked a moon of Mars out of its orbit and put it in orbit around Titan. Just 'cos.
4. Grey Knights are such a secret that they are prepared to kill more people to preserve their secrecy than the Daemons that they slew could have possibly done themselves. If Guardsmen ask the Imperium for help against Daemons, and Grey Knights arrive, the Grey Knights will execute each and every Guardsmen from that planet. This could extend to an Exterminatus.
5. In a battle for Armageddon, they mindwiped hundreds of Space Wolves, if not every Space Wolf, killed everyone on 3 entire planets and blew 12 IG troopships out of the sky to ensure that they're still a secret. And killed 20 Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperial Navy listening stations on the offchance they got wind that something was up.
6. In an attempt to kill Tzeentch's Changeling, they evacuated the planet and banished all the Daemons. However, they realised that the Changeling must have gotten away on a refugee ship, so they destroyed all the refugees, thus making their saving of the planet utterly futile.
7. It is mentioned that Sisters of Battle turned to Chaos, even though it has been stated on more than one occassion in the past that in the entire history of the Sisters only one ever turned to Chaos, and that was only after a long time anyway. This is probably the easiest to swallow as it is simple retcon, but still.
8. Some SoB tried to fight off Daemon forces and couldn't manage it. Some turned to Chaos, most remained loyal. The Grey Knights arrived and the first thing they did was slaughter every single remaining Sister and smeared their blood on their armour in an attempt to keep Daemons away.
9. Draigo carved the name of his predecessor on a Daemon Primarch's heart.
10. Commander Dante agreed to let the Grey Knights mindwipe the entire Blood Angels after they had to ally against Chaos.
11. The Grey Knights couldn't win a 3-way battle between themselves, Tyranids and Daemons, so they ordered the temple they were fighting in to be bombarded from orbit, but survived the barrage bombs because their armour is so good.
Not happy right now. To avoid intellectual property claims, please, all credit to the outstanding writing that I paraphrased in this post goes to Matt Ward. I wouldn't wish to deny him any of the glory of his magnificent codex.
Wow! These guys sound pure Baaad Aaaaassss Grimdark(tm).
Wiping out several star systems to ensure you remain totally unnoticed by everyone is Hot Diggetty!
It's amazing they could do all this with only 1,000 staff members. They must practically breathe methedrine.
Azure wrote:I am honestly not going to believe what has been written here until I see this codex for myself because this sounds Way to outrageous. I knew about the heart carving on Mortarion..., but some of this other stuff? No
Absolutely no exaggeration, no lies, no misleading out-of-context quotes. This is what has been written by M. Night Ward.
Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts
Scary Nerd... it is with horror in my heart, and tears in my eyes, that I confirm what you say. In fact, I think you may have left out some of the more ridiculous stuff in that codex. When first he mentioned the Necrons I was terrified, but they've been left well enough alone, for now. As for those who liked the GK's of the past, you have my sympathies.
Kilkrazy wrote:There's nothing like a good splutter of rage first thing in the morning to get you all revved up for the day.
"Wherever you tread, tread lightly. We are closer than you think and our blades are sharp" 
Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 
Unlike most of the whiners on DakkaDakka, I like 
read it and was like 
then 
and then I 