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How bout incubi? a full squad could just tear things up. A klaviex with demiklavies just makes them even more deadly.

Oh! dont forget the onslaught and murderous assualt.

29 ard' boyz with nob with power klaw. Dead Killy! The few times vie used blood claws they arnet that bad, just get them into combat ang let a wolf guard lead em

Brother SRM wrote:Assault Terminators are nasty. Black Templar assault Terminators with lightning claws and furious charge are nastier.

AACNMTC baby !

The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Charge a 12 man squad into 5 TH/SS Terminators (arguably the most resilient unit in the game).

48 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 32 hits, 16 wounds, 5.33 unsaved wounds, Terminators are dead. And that unit of DCA is 20 points cheaper than 5 Terminators...

Those Wraiths amuse me, they can't handle DCA

3 Wraiths = 120 points
8 DCA = 120 points

Both are I6, so they go simo

DCA have 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.67 unsaved wounds, and do not get WBB because the DCA have power weapons.

Wraiths have 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds

DCA on average will win combat by a small margin and will wipe the Wraith squad frequently.

This is of course ignoring any outside support from ICs.

DCA are pretty nasty. I had a group of them, 10ish get a charge off on 5 of my TH/SS Terms and EC. 1 survived and killed 2. It probably would have went better if my LrC didn't get immobilized and I had to get out and go look for targets.

DCA can never be outside a transport, potentially if I was able to catch them with a LrC firing a full load they could be crippled in 1 shooting phase.

Ork boys, with the mandatory nob upgrades. Yes, they'll get shot up a bit while closing. Yes, they'll get smacked around a bit before they can hit back. But there will still be enough bodies left to bog down nearly anything that they can't kill, outright, which is more than worth the meager price per boy.

Genestealers with a Broodlord can be nasty. Have the Broodlord throw Hypnotic Gaze on that PFist sergeant/klawnob, and they won't be doing much of anything to support their own squad. The Broodlord also puts most ICs to shame in terms of raw attack power, but is merely a leader upgrade for the unit.

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Charge a 12 man squad into 5 TH/SS Terminators (arguably the most resilient unit in the game).

48 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 32 hits, 16 wounds, 5.33 unsaved wounds, Terminators are dead. And that unit of DCA is 20 points cheaper than 5 Terminators...

Those Wraiths amuse me, they can't handle DCA

3 Wraiths = 120 points
8 DCA = 120 points

Both are I6, so they go simo

DCA have 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.67 unsaved wounds, and do not get WBB because the DCA have power weapons.

Wraiths have 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds

DCA on average will win combat by a small margin and will wipe the Wraith squad frequently.

This is of course ignoring any outside support from ICs.

Put the mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder bubbles with the wraiths, and the tables turn dramatically

mulkers wrote:Put the mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder bubbles with the wraiths, and the tables turn dramatically

Except the point of this thread is the units are not supported by other units.

mulkers wrote:

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Charge a 12 man squad into 5 TH/SS Terminators (arguably the most resilient unit in the game).

48 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 32 hits, 16 wounds, 5.33 unsaved wounds, Terminators are dead. And that unit of DCA is 20 points cheaper than 5 Terminators...

Those Wraiths amuse me, they can't handle DCA

3 Wraiths = 120 points
8 DCA = 120 points

Both are I6, so they go simo

DCA have 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.67 unsaved wounds, and do not get WBB because the DCA have power weapons.

Wraiths have 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds

DCA on average will win combat by a small margin and will wipe the Wraith squad frequently.

This is of course ignoring any outside support from ICs.

Put the mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder bubbles with the wraiths, and the tables turn dramatically

Insert a few Jokaero and the Monolith is dead. Insert a Libby /w Hammerhand and Quicksilver and the DCAs strike first and wound on 3s.

really? no bloodletters?

bloodletters>khorne berserkerz in CC

A nice big unit of Hormagaunts is up there for me. Don't have the codex to hand (curse you work!), but I'm pretty sure you can give them extra str and init?.
If so that is a whole lot of gribbly nastiness coming at ya!


Edit: oooooo 100 posts!! Go me!

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Meh, Ork boyz are still better IMO.

trewbarton wrote:Tau broadside

wtf ?

Definitely a squad of 20 bloodletters getting 60 str5 initiative5 power weapon attacks on the charge are pretty nasty in cc. What else, they worship Khorne. Lolz

I'm surprised I haven't seen my pick: Salamander Assault Termis w/ thunder hammers and Storm Shields.
2+/3++ saves with rerollable Thunderhammer swings? YES!

NagothDaCleaver wrote:I'm surprised I haven't seen my pick: Salamander Assault Termis w/ thunder hammers and Storm Shields.
2+/3++ saves with rerollable Thunderhammer swings? YES!

No re-rolls, unless you add a near-200 pt. Special Character to the equation. Point for point then, Assault Termies without Vulkan are probably better (e.g., for 400 points you would get 10 Assault Termies on one side, and Vulkan + 5 Assault Termies on other... mathhammer go!).

Many Tyranid units can be really nasty in close combat. Upgraded Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Raveners...

Until you charge through cover that is. Then it's basically suiciding the brood. Thanks for giving one of the most assault centric armies in the game NO ASSAULT GRENADES. Really...thanks for that.

Gotta love seeing a brood of Genestealers charge into some Grey Knight Terminators, have a Libarian close by case Sanctuary and seeing my 'stealers drop from I 6 to I 1 and get butchered like nothing.

Thanks again Cruddace.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Meh, Ork boyz are still better IMO.

Actually, 150 pts DCA vs 150 pts Ork Boyz incl. Nob w/PK, DCA should win definitively if they get the charge. WS5, Str 4, 5++ and 4 attacks simply overwhelms Boyz' numbers, and the Orks either lose horribly to fearless wounds or fail Ld and get swept.

If you swap Arcoflags for DCA, though, Boyz simply lose. Doesn't matter if they charge or get charged, arcoflags are basically tailor-made to crush 6+ armor saves in CC.

What about BA Death Company w/ power weapons and Death Company Dread?

DE beastmaster pack... they are brutal...

the kymeras are damn hard to kill and the razorwing flock do crazy dmg

they made my ork boys look like grots, it made me sad

sourclams wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Meh, Ork boyz are still better IMO.

Actually, 150 pts DCA vs 150 pts Ork Boyz incl. Nob w/PK, DCA should win definitively if they get the charge. WS5, Str 4, 5++ and 4 attacks simply overwhelms Boyz' numbers, and the Orks either lose horribly to fearless wounds or fail Ld and get swept.

And if the Ork Boyz charge the DCA, which is more likely as they've got Waaagh!, they kill the assassins. Math time!


DCA vs. Boyz!

150 points is 10 assassins. 150 points is 20 boyz, a power klaw and a Boss Pole IIRC.

Assassins charging:

Assassins go first with 40 attacks, 26,666 hits, rounded to 27. Of these 27, half or 14,5 wound. Rounded up, that's 15. The Nob takes one of the wounds, meaning that 14 boyz die. 5 boyz retaliate with 3 attacks each, that's 7,5 hits, rounded up to 8. Of these 8, only 2,666, rounded to 3, wound. The assassins then block 1 of these, leading to two dead assassins. The Nob then swings with 3 Klaw attacks. 1,5 hit, rounded to two. With rounding, one of these hit and kill, leading to 3 dead assassins versus a massive 14 dead Orks and one wound on the Nob. If they're not swept, the Boyz die next turn. Overwhelming assassin victory.

Boyz charging:
Assassins go first with 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds. Nob takes one wound, so 9 Boyz die. 10 boyz retaliate with 4 attacks each. 40 attacks, 20 hit, 10 wound. Of these 10, 3,333 are saved, rounded down to 3. The Klaw then attacks, scoring 2 hits. Of these 2 hits, after rounding 1 wounds pass invuln saves. This gives us 8 dead assassins versus 9 dead Orks. Orks are fearless and as such probably lose one boy to No Retreat!

Turn 2: 4 assassins attack with 3 each, causing 8 hits, 4 wounds which means 4 boyz die. 5 boyz retaliate with 3 attacks each, causing 7,5 rounded to 8 hits and 4 wounds. Of these wounds after rounding, one is saved, leaving one assassin left. The Nob then swings, scoring 2 hits after rounding which causes more than one unsaved wound. Da Orkz win!

Add to this that the boyz don't require you to use a useful HQ slot to unlock and the fact that they're scoring by default, as well as their ability to tarpit stuff and actually survive being shot at for more than a turn and I'd say the Boyz are better. I could mathhammer a dreadnought versus DCA and the same versus Boyz to make my point even clearer...

And if the Ork Boyz charge the DCA, which is more likely as they've got Waaagh!, they kill the assassins. Math time!


DCA vs. Boyz!

150 points is 10 assassins. 150 points is 20 boyz, a power klaw and a Boss Pole IIRC.

Assassins charging:

Assassins go first with 40 attacks, 26,666 hits, rounded to 27. Of these 27, half or 14,5 wound. Rounded up, that's 15. The Nob takes one of the wounds, meaning that 14 boyz die. 5 boyz retaliate with 3 attacks each, that's 7,5 hits, rounded up to 8. Of these 8, only 2,666, rounded to 3, wound. The assassins then block 1 of these, leading to two dead assassins. The Nob then swings with 3 Klaw attacks. 1,5 hit, rounded to two. With rounding, one of these hit and kill, leading to 3 dead assassins versus a massive 14 dead Orks and one wound on the Nob. If they're not swept, the Boyz die next turn. Overwhelming assassin victory.

Boyz charging:
Assassins go first with 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds. Nob takes one wound, so 9 Boyz die. 10 boyz retaliate with 4 attacks each. 40 attacks, 20 hit, 10 wound. Of these 10, 3,333 are saved, rounded down to 3. The Klaw then attacks, scoring 2 hits. Of these 2 hits, after rounding 1 wounds pass invuln saves. This gives us 8 dead assassins versus 9 dead Orks. Orks are fearless and as such probably lose one boy to No Retreat!

Turn 2: 4 assassins attack with 3 each, causing 8 hits, 4 wounds which means 4 boyz die. 5 boyz retaliate with 3 attacks each, causing 7,5 rounded to 8 hits and 4 wounds. Of these wounds after rounding, one is saved, leaving one assassin left. The Nob then swings, scoring 2 hits after rounding which causes more than one unsaved wound. Da Orkz win!

Add to this that the boyz don't require you to use a useful HQ slot to unlock and the fact that they're scoring by default, as well as their ability to tarpit stuff and actually survive being shot at for more than a turn and I'd say the Boyz are better. I could mathhammer a dreadnought versus DCA and the same versus Boyz to make my point even clearer...

The problem you guys have with those huge squads like Ork Boyz is it's impossible to get them all into combat on the charge. At best you'd end up with around a third making it into base to base contact, so counting the charge bonus for all of them isn't really reflecting the squads charge damage capability.

30 man Death Company with Lemartes, all carrying jump packs, a couple with thunder hammers and most of the unit with power weapons charging. Go ahead, try to survive it
(I don't want to hear the "but rage ruins the unit" argument-I know how to deal with rage)

and if we mean a legit unit you can use in game I'll change it to 5 DCs+Lemartes, jump packs and power swords. Kills a decked out nob squad without even blinking

As has been stated many times already, Tyranids have some amazing choices. I've found the lowly Termagants and Hormagaunts to be really mean when upgraded. The termagants especially, because folks just aren't expecting how good they are with the upgrades (adrenal gland, poison) and they get those upgrades so cheaply. It is anecdotal evidence to my argument, but I have knocked out terminator units on a 20 strong upgraded 'gant charge. No power weapon, just sheer wait of attacks and rerolls.

The Nightbringer......

I am deffinatly going to have to go with a squad of thunder wolf cavalry everyone with storm shields and one thunder hammer everyone else has pistols

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Seriously? HOW can you even guess what the rolls would be?! ITS A GAME OF CHANCE !!! Yes you can swing things in your favour, but really.....do me a favour all you mathhammerer's out there....take 6 Die, and tell me what the die come up as BEFORE you throw them....

Done it? Good.....Now, how did you do? Really? No I dont know.....BECAUSE I DID NOT SEE YOU ROLL THEM AND BECAUSE THEY ARE CUBES OF RANDOMNESS YOU CANNOT SECOND GUESS THEM!!!!

If you want a game of probability, buy a math puzzle book.

You CANNOT second guess these things.......please dont waste your time trying.....

He isn't second guessing, he's giving the averages. Obviously there will be greatly varying results both ways in each seperate game.. but it allows us to see if there's a relative margin of power difference between the two equal-points-worth of models.

I'm going to have to go with the swarmlord with tyrant gaurds all armed with bone swords. Cause that's been banned at FLGS nothing is more hilarious then watching your opponents commander get ws and bs 1 and striking last then bone sabre time with preferred enemy.