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sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

Seriously? HOW can you even guess what the rolls would be?! ITS A GAME OF CHANCE !!! Yes you can swing things in your favour, but really.....do me a favour all you mathhammerer's out there....take 6 Die, and tell me what the die come up as BEFORE you throw them....

Done it? Good.....Now, how did you do? Really? No I dont know.....BECAUSE I DID NOT SEE YOU ROLL THEM AND BECAUSE THEY ARE CUBES OF RANDOMNESS YOU CANNOT SECOND GUESS THEM!!!!

If you want a game of probability, buy a math puzzle book.

You CANNOT second guess these things.......please dont waste your time trying.....

Players who know the average outcome of a fight has a much better chance of making a good move than players who do not. Besides, it's a thread about "best" something, how in the name of the Emperor's left foot are we supposed to back up our claims if we AREN'T using maths?

-Loki- wrote:The problem you guys have with those huge squads like Ork Boyz is it's impossible to get them all into combat on the charge. At best you'd end up with around a third making it into base to base contact, so counting the charge bonus for all of them isn't really reflecting the squads charge damage capability.

Then there's the fact that no matter what kind of Ork boy it is, they've got some kind of gun, whereas DCA don't. Another huge advantage of the boyz.

timetowaste85 wrote:30 man Death Company with Lemartes, all carrying jump packs, a couple with thunder hammers and most of the unit with power weapons charging. Go ahead, try to survive it
(I don't want to hear the "but rage ruins the unit" argument-I know how to deal with rage)

If we go down that road: Green Tide. Infinity+1 Boyz. Have fun!

Yes, but it is not about hammering the odds. You just have to know the relative stat lines and armaments of the opposing squad.

If your boys are generally better then they should win. But stranger things have happened.

I just dont see the point in trying to second guess what is basically a cubed random generator....

Have you ever read 'The DiceMan'....Thats what happens when you take your love of cubed random a little too far my friend...

Dont let it happen to you!

-Loki- wrote:

mulkers wrote:Put the mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder bubbles with the wraiths, and the tables turn dramatically

Except the point of this thread is the units are not supported by other units.

Also, the "mandatory monolith, res orb and tomb spyder" is hundreds of points of support. With that much support devoted to the DCA, the don't just win, they win by an obscene degree.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sourclams wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Amaya wrote:The new Death Cult Assassins are by far the best offensive CC unit in the game on a point for point basis.

Meh, Ork boyz are still better IMO.

Actually, 150 pts DCA vs 150 pts Ork Boyz incl. Nob w/PK, DCA should win definitively if they get the charge. WS5, Str 4, 5++ and 4 attacks simply overwhelms Boyz' numbers, and the Orks either lose horribly to fearless wounds or fail Ld and get swept.

And if the Ork Boyz charge the DCA, which is more likely as they've got Waaagh!, they kill the assassins. Math time!


DCA vs. Boyz!

150 points is 10 assassins. 150 points is 20 boyz, a power klaw and a Boss Pole IIRC.... <snip>

I'm not quite sure what you were proving here (also, your math is off in the math-hammer and the Orks are slightly more expensive then the DCA); Sourclams said that DCA definitely win if they get the charge, and... they do.

The problem with the way you are looking at the question ("who is best in CC, point for point?") is you're only taking into account how well a unit does on the charge, not what kind of attrition it does even if it gets swept. After all, for any unit to even be in the running for "best CC unit", it has to be something that smashes face on the charge (which certainly both boys and DCA do).

But also notice that even if a unit of boys gets the charge on the DCA, the boys come out of it below half strength (thus unable to regroup if it ever fails a morale test). That is, even if they win, they have suffered a dramatic loss to their combat potential. I mean, what's more threatening, 6 DCA, or 7 boys and a PK-nob (with 1 wound)? Also, let's remember that we're talking best "units"; the boys-with-PK-nob is a full unit, including optional upgrades. DCA are just one type of Inquisitorial Henchman available in an Inquisitorial Henchman Warband. The value of IHWs is the insane degree they can be tailored: made more stompy with Arco-flagellents, more durable with Crusaders, more anti-horde with flamers, and so on.

A better question is, what is in the top tier of CC, point for point? Ork Boys are certainly up there, with caveats, and Warbands are up there, with different caveats. There are others in that group: Khorn Bezerkers, Generstealers, yadda yadda.

To me, the thing that puts Warbands in general over the top is the insane degree to which they can both be tailored, and can be buffed by the rest of the madness in the codex. (And by "madness", I mean things like the I-roll-1-d6-now-your-unit-dies Psychotroke grenades, as well as simply awesome buffs like Rad Grenades and Hammerhand. All of which you can get in multiple units in an army. Ugh... the more I think about it, the more annoyed I am at Matt Ward...)

As an aside;

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Add to this that the boyz don't require you to use a useful HQ slot to unlock and the fact that they're scoring by default, as well as their ability to tarpit stuff and actually survive being shot at for more than a turn and I'd say the Boyz are better. I could mathhammer a dreadnought versus DCA and the same versus Boyz to make my point even clearer...

Are you seriously saying people would complain about being "forced" to take Coteaz? Are we talking about the same insanely under-costed Coteaz here? The guy on page 86, the guy who has over 100 points worth of wargear and upgrades, plus 3 psychic powers, plus 4 special rules, plus he opens up the best unit in the codex, but only costs 100 points? That Coteaz?

After the game that I had last weekend, I have to throw Grotesques in here. A 10 man Grotesque squad is 350 pts, which is quite expensive, but their nastiness is just wrong. 4 attacks on the charge, at a minimum of strength 5, with WS4, makes them really really nasty. Yes, they have crap for a save, and no power weapons unless you wanna buy a SGT upgrade and the weapon, but for what they can do, I love em and hope to get a bunch of their models to build up my Coven ally for my Kabal when GW releases them!!!

I don't think Grotesques fit the bill. In my experience their lack of power weapons really hurts them when fighting an equivalent (points wise/ CC focused) power armored unit. They'll kill cheap low save hordes like its their job though.

Death company? Loads of attacks, and feel no pain.

Genestealers all the way!

You can get a big unit of 20, deploy behind a wall 12" away, move over the wall, run, and charge instantly. With toxin sacs they get 3 WS6 S4 poisoned attacks with rending (with re-rolls of 1 to hit if you give them sythcing talons too) the broodlord also has more attacks and a higher WS, plus he can take the option to ID stuff on a 6 to wound and has psychic abilities which can stop an enemy attacking all together.

Rippers.

@Devastator, I've taken down a bloodthirster with rippers!

Stealers are the best imo.

Blood Thirster of Khorne. GD power activate!

or Fire Warriors, they are a force of destruction in melee

Another vote for the deathcult assassins. 4 strength 4 power weapon attacks at i6 and ws5 each is going to spoil most unit's day. That you can put them in a land raider or give them an inquisitor with rad grenades is a big bonus.

Nob mob on bikes for the win.

For isolated unit v unit either DCA or Genestealers.

General purpose probably Black Templar Terminators.

Unit of 20 Plaguebearers will be pretty good, if only because they'll be able to outlast just about anything. Always getting a 5+ and then most of the time another 4+ on top of that is very good, plus that T5 is a boon

Angry Marines Terminators with powerfeet and dual chainfists, supported by the banner of feth you.

Gun drones, I know they shouldn't be there but they seem to just turn ninja somehow against the worst odds you throw them at.

As my first post on this forum i shall lay my bid down as the BEST hand to hand unit in the entire game of 40k. Statisticly speaking.

first place
With the advent of the newest and shall i say cheeziest edition to space marine codex's the Grey Knights. i declare
Purifiers as the absolute best hand to hand unit in the game. with wide variety of options great armor, decent point cost for what you get. plus a cheader filled psi power that anihilates enemies before the combat starts. period.

second place
my pick for second place was a serious toss up. but i pick sanguinary guard, for 200 pts you get 5 guys that deepstrike acurately all carry power weapons, if enraged get furious charge, given the appropriate hq can be used as troop choices. sufficient options to lay waste to both troops and armor.

third place
this one i cannot believe no one even mentioned. they were for the longest time the absolute epidimy of evil encarnite in hand to hand. back in 3rd ed i saw a unit of these reduce my entire army to a soultry 3 marines in a single turn.
how could anyone forget howling banshies.

I still lean on Genestealers, considering they're a smallish unit, get rending by default, can take upgrades that give them rerolls on 1's to hit, furious charge, and poison giving them rerolls against MEQs to wound, meaning more rending hits, and get infiltrate.

Then they get a 'sergeant' upgrade in the form of the Broodlord, which makes most ICs weep in terms of damage output, gives the squad outflank and carries some nasty pyschic powers that can completely negate hidden power fists.

im2randomghgh wrote:Angry Marines Terminators with powerfeet and dual chainfists, supported by the banner of feth you.

Toss in a libby with the 'Fight harder, you f***!" power or a commander with an adimentium sack full of power doorknobs and that unit will tear through anything.

20 daemonettes will take you any day

20 Bloodletters on the charge 60 strength 5 power weapons attacks.

30 gaunts with devourers will drop those demons before they even get to assault.

CushionRide wrote:30 gaunts with devourers will drop those demons before they even get to assault.

This isn't the point of the thread. Most assault units can be destroyed through shooting before they reach assault.

i understand the point of the thread do you? the point is what is the best overall assault unit, based on points, survivablilty, damage, attacks, quantity. your demons yes have great attack potential, but low survivablilty. i used them before. my bloodletters and deamonettes were shot to death by necron fire before they could even use their awesome hand to hand ability. so in that instance, i dont think they are that great.

this is why i voted on purifiers. you have options, do you your demons have options, no, purifiers can combat up and benifit from a unit of 10 there by using 4 psicannons in one group, and hand to hand in the other, both groups can then utilize their psi powers to beef their str or dish out auto wounds for the assault. or ... keep them together for a rip roaring full close combat squad. for their points purifiers in my opinion are the BEST hand to hand available.

if we left point cost out of it, then paladins are by far the best. purly because they have 2 wounds and you can equip them differently so you can exploit wound allocation. and i think even they would wipe the floor with your demons.

Brother SRM wrote:Assault Terminators are nasty. Black Templar assault Terminators with lightning claws and furious charge are nastier.

Beat me to it for the BT's!

Well, seeing how you have to have a Vow, you take perferred enemy, which gives your BT lightning claw terminators with Furious Charge Re-roll to hit and Re-roll to wound at Initiative 5 and with a basic squad of 5 thats 20 power weapon attacks that are mostly going to wound... pretty wicked

deceiver... mainly because he wins durability in a 1 on 1 fight (if ur better than me... i run, if you can't hurt me i stay!)

Otherwise +1 BT!

UNITS, not IC's MC's or other GW cheadar

CushionRide wrote:i understand the point of the thread do you? the point is what is the best overall assault unit, based on points, survivablilty, damage, attacks, quantity. your demons yes have great attack potential, but low survivablilty. i used them before. my bloodletters and deamonettes were shot to death by necron fire before they could even use their awesome hand to hand ability. so in that instance, i dont think they are that great.

this is why i voted on purifiers. you have options, do you your demons have options, no, purifiers can combat up and benifit from a unit of 10 there by using 4 psicannons in one group, and hand to hand in the other, both groups can then utilize their psi powers to beef their str or dish out auto wounds for the assault. or ... keep them together for a rip roaring full close combat squad. for their points purifiers in my opinion are the BEST hand to hand available.

if we left point cost out of it, then paladins are by far the best. purly because they have 2 wounds and you can equip them differently so you can exploit wound allocation. and i think even they would wipe the floor with your demons.

You deep struck too far away then.....Even if 3 bloodletters reached that necron unit they would sweep them........

doubled wrote:Gun drones, I know they shouldn't be there but they seem to just turn ninja somehow against the worst odds you throw them at.

QFT, poor stats, but they smash face in melee...

Space Wolf Blood Claws with Lukas the Trickster.