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2011/04/18 15:47:50
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
I don't know what is planned, but I continue to be doubtful of this resin rumor. A switch to resin casting would be very costly and I just don't see GW spending that kind of money to essentually rebuild their manufacturing infrastructure. The price of metal may be going up but any savings from resin would be negligible given the costs involved. Repackaging sounds more likely but that is just me speculating. Guess we wait and see.
2011/04/18 15:49:00
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
agnosto wrote:Considering the amount of problems FW has with warped models and so forth, I'm a bit surprised at this move. It's much easier to bend a bent metal arm than to use hot water and so on to bent a warped piece of resin. Not exactly friendly to those new to wargaming, you know, the target demographic of GW.
...How is it "easier to bend a bent metal arm"(which requires everything to constantly be straightened and tested for integrity as you go along or the piece will just fall off at the slightest provocation) than it is to get some hot water and bend the warped piece of resin into shape, then dip it back into cold water to ensure it sets?
Not to mention that any modding that you want to do will require you to wear protective masks etc. They'll have to put a disclaimer on the kits just like back in the days of lead.
Not really. "Any modding that requires you to wear protective masks" with Forge World stuff is because you're doing HUGE amounts of sanding/sawing of resin to remove the pour blocks.
On single infantry, you don't have that issue. At best, if they mold the bases into the model, you have to snip the pour block off, which produces no dust.
I should have taken photos of my Titan Tech-Priest before I started working on him to illustrate this point though.
Now, if GW was moving towards resin conversion kits for vehicles...yeah, there'd likely be an issue.
Goodbye pewter, all hail resin!
2011/04/18 15:50:19
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
It's not actually unlikely that GW have a technical solution that would overcome the resin issue -- like they might use a similar material instead. Also, I recall in the 70s and 80s, almost everything seemed to have bent weapons, palstic or metal and as someone new to wargaming then, it bothered me a little but not too much. And in fairness, It was GW as Citadel who pushed standards up in that era.
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2011/04/18 15:51:42
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
I don't think this is nearly the big deal that others do.
GW has made some resin stuff lately - possibly as a way of evaluating whether this is possible for other things. The barricades and 'orky' barricades are resin pieces. I bought both, and the quality was very good - no significant mold lines or flash, certainly nothing that couldn't be trimmed with a hobby knife. No warping either.
FW prices aren't high because resin is expensive, FW prices are high because the move less product. It takes more time to sculpt a really big model than it does to sculpt a smaller one, and if you're going to sell hundreds of them instead of tens-of-thousands of them, you need larger margins to cover that cost.
Shifting metal models to resin isn't going to cover much of the fixed costs that go into their pricing. It's only going to partially address variable costs - it won't change packaging, or shipping costs for example.
My expectation, if they shift to resin, is that the quality will remain high (this is something GW prides itself on, and I can only recall one product (those moonscape wrecks) in recent memory that didn't meet a sufficiently high quality standard), and that the price on blisters might come down a little, but not much. I doubt they'll discontinue anything, because with a catalog as large as they've got, they have to have a contingency plan that will allow them to make the change without a significant retooling cost.
Breotan wrote:I don't know what is planned, but I continue to be doubtful of this resin rumor. A switch to resin casting would be very costly and I just don't see GW spending that kind of money to essentially rebuild their manufacturing infrastructure. The price of metal may be going up but any savings from resin would be negligible given the costs involved. Repackaging sounds more likely but that is just me speculating. Guess we wait and see.
This is a good point. I don't think the switch to resin would happen overnight though. From what Mikhaila's saying, it does sound like they're in the "process" of retooling the manufacturing infrastructure to resin and in the meantime they'll just sell off what pewter models they have stockpiled.
2011/04/18 15:56:07
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
I don't know about the rest of you, but if they're moving to resin... I'll over time be re-purchasing all of my metal models.
Even the prospect of getting certain models in resin makes them more appealing. I have put off buying a multitude of models because they were metal, no longer I hope.
Should this all be true (which I desperately hope that it is) I think it will be the greatest thing GW has done since 5th edition 40K.
2011/04/18 15:57:41
Subject: Re:UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
Breotan wrote:I don't know what is planned, but I continue to be doubtful of this resin rumor. A switch to resin casting would be very costly and I just don't see GW spending that kind of money to essentially rebuild their manufacturing infrastructure. The price of metal may be going up but any savings from resin would be negligible given the costs involved. Repackaging sounds more likely but that is just me speculating. Guess we wait and see.
This is a good point. I don't think the switch to resin would happen overnight though. From what Mikhaila's saying, it does sound like they're in the "process" of retooling the manufacturing infrastructure to resin and in the meantime they'll just sell off what pewter models they have stockpiled.
They don't have to do much at all to switch to resin. All of the same machines and molds can be used.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/18 15:58:56
2011/04/18 16:02:04
Subject: Re:UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
Metal sets now discontinued per this list? The time of Manos: Hands Of Fate has arrived! All hail The Master and his man-servant Torgo of the big-thighs and leering gaze! It's a GW cataclysm! Just remember, "there is no way out of here".
But, seriously folks. The "this is the end of GW" posts in this thread are a little over the top. Whatever GW is doing with the metal sets I doubt it will spark a "revolution", "revolt" or the "end of GW". Hilarious.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/04/18 16:07:01
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2011/04/18 16:05:36
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
Has it actually been confirmed that this materials changeover, if it indeed does happen, will be to Resin? Or was it just a suggestion which people gave taken and run with? Chinese whispers anyone?
Despite what many people would have you believe, and indeed want you to believe, GW are not stupid. They did not become the biggest producer of tabletop war-games and miniatures by being an irresponsible company that don't care what it's customers think.
There are still many possibilities which could explain what the announcement concerning blisters/metal models will be about. If it is a materials change, there is every chance it could be a move to all plastic or even a plastic/resin hybrid which other companies use. It makes me laugh that even if GW made the decision to move to resin only, people automatically assume that it would be the same resin that is used by Forge World. We all know the inherent problems which can present themselves when working with Forge World resin, which is why it has always been marketed as being for non mass produced specialist models which are aimed more towards the more experienced modeller/gamer.
That being said, how can anyone seriously think that GW would decide to change it's production to said resin without making substantial changes in order to alleviate some if not all of these problems? I do realise that if I'm wrong I'm going to look stupid, but I honestly can't see how a company which has been in business since the late 70's, growing year on year and which is the biggest in their field would make the monumentally stupid decision which the vast majority of people on this forum are already resigned to.
Seriously guys, just think about it for a minute. Have faith!
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2011/04/18 16:05:41
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
Kanluwen wrote:
On single infantry, you don't have that issue. At best, if they mold the bases into the model, you have to snip the pour block off, which produces no dust.
I should have taken photos of my Titan Tech-Priest before I started working on him to illustrate this point though.
Now, if GW was moving towards resin conversion kits for vehicles...yeah, there'd likely be an issue.
Goodbye pewter, all hail resin!
I don't have a great deal of experience with resin so I just know what those who do tell me. I'm a little concerned because I play Ogres in fantasy and some of the models are about the size of a land speeder. Make that completely out of resin and I know I'll find a way to feth it up.
As to bending metal; I have a scraplauncher and several pieces frequently get bent in transport as they stick out all over the place:
So, if they switch to resin on this monster (as it's currently all metal) the little bits will just break off instead of bending would be my assumption.
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2011/04/18 16:07:48
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
Kanluwen wrote:
On single infantry, you don't have that issue. At best, if they mold the bases into the model, you have to snip the pour block off, which produces no dust.
I should have taken photos of my Titan Tech-Priest before I started working on him to illustrate this point though.
Now, if GW was moving towards resin conversion kits for vehicles...yeah, there'd likely be an issue.
Goodbye pewter, all hail resin!
I don't have a great deal of experience with resin so I just know what those who do tell me. I'm a little concerned because I play Ogres in fantasy and some of the models are about the size of a land speeder. Make that completely out of resin and I know I'll find a way to feth it up.
Which models in particular are we talking about? Aside from the Scraplauncher, that is.
Pieces like Greasus and the other Ogre characters would be way better off in resin, imo. The thing to remember is that resin when cast as a 'solid' piece(like you'd see in single characters) with no hollow pockets is actually pretty damn strong.
It's no pewter, but it sure isn't as fragile as people like to make it out to be.
As to bending metal; I have a scraplauncher and several pieces frequently get bent in transport as they stick out all over the place:
So, if they switch to resin on this monster (as it's currently all metal) the little bits will just break off instead of bending would be my assumption.
I don't think they'll 'switch to resin' on that sized piece. I mean, we've heard some rumblings that Ogres are in the works and the Scraplauncher is a big candidate(in my opinion at least) for the plastic treatment.
2011/04/18 16:36:24
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
oni wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but if they're moving to resin... I'll over time be re-purchasing all of my metal models.
Even the prospect of getting certain models in resin makes them more appealing. I have put off buying a multitude of models because they were metal, no longer I hope.
I'm of the opposite mind- they make models from metal to resnin and I wont be buying models,I'll have to just make due with what I have.
Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...
2011/04/18 16:41:17
Subject: Re:UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
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2011/04/18 16:42:47
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
I still don't understand how moving to resin from metal could possibly be cheaper. You spin cast resin and then you have to wait for the resin to set up in the molds (best case several minutes). You spin cast metal you just have to wait for the metal to cool off enough to solidify (worst case several seconds). Their throughput is going to drop through the floor. (unless they completely buy a whole new line for production with many times the tooling and an easy way to switch them out). Everyone is acting as if resin should be cheaper... I just don't get it.
2011/04/18 16:47:06
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
injection molded plastics are cheap and easy and you can just toss scrap, bad casts and recycled plastic back in the pot and recast. so my guess is plastic
2011/04/18 16:51:37
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
The models will have to be redesigned for injection molded plastic though. And you will also lose detail. Given the time frame they do everything else in it doesn't seem realistic to change all these models over at once.
2011/04/18 16:54:04
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
This is kind of a mixed bag for me. I dislike the spindly metal arms and weapons on some of the models (looking at you old Phoenix Guard) but i haven't had much luck with resin. I picked up the Keeper of Secrets from Forge World a few years back and all the thin hair bits and claws constantly worried me. When that stuff breaks it's not repairable for someone who can't sculpt a round ball out of play dough like me. I hope whatever resin they end up using doesn't shatter like dry dirt when it breaks.
2011/04/18 16:57:09
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
Brotherjanus wrote:When that stuff breaks it's not repairable for someone who can't sculpt a round ball out of play dough like me. I hope whatever resin they end up using doesn't shatter like dry dirt when it breaks.
?
Resin tends to break clean(unlike Plastic and Metal), meaning that what broke off will line up exactly with where it broke from with only a small crack being left to tell it broke at all.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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2011/04/18 17:04:52
Subject: Re:UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
its not about better models. its about saving money. metal is expensive. resin is toxic and hard to mix and handle. plastic is the way to go. just heat, inject, pop it out. They can be mass produced very fast, which reduces labour costs. lighter to reduce shipping cost. less waste to reduce material cost. less toxic materials to reduce storage and handling costs. all round its cheaper. will we see a drop in price, no, this is an oportunity for them to get bigger profits, which is in the end, what is driving this switch, viva capitalism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/18 17:05:35
2011/04/18 17:09:44
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
OK noob modeller question coming up: What exactly is so bad about resin? I never worked with the stuff before, so I'm curious as to why this shift will be a big deal.
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2011/04/18 17:11:39
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
The only problem is that plastic can't hold detail as well as resin or metal, and while metal is a female dog to work with, I must admit some of my favourite models are metal just because of the higher level of detail.
Also Platuanth has it right on the money. My Warhound has a hip joint that practically broke in half during assembly. A thick layer of resin cement to hold it together, and the models been fine ever since.
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Resin = hard to work with for new gamers so thats no bueno
If looking at what GW has done in the past the trend has been almost unanimously to plastic. Remember the old LRC model? now its plastic. What about the Fire Prism? plastic. Daemon Prince = Plastic. I could go on but you get the idea. For those nay-sayers that say plastic will ruin the detail I point everyone to the new death company box that I have been making, these models are highly detailed and I don't see how anyone could notice a difference. (has any metal to plastic conversion not been better than it was before?)
Plastic serves two purposes:
1) Its cheap, GW could make more money selling plastic at the same prices (if only because they are buying plastic and not metal)
2) Its EASY. plastic is so much easier to work with than metal. Its easier for new gamers to assemble, its easier for veterans to model.
There would need to be new molds for each metal box BUT they have all the materials and infrastructure to do this. I think resin would be a ball from left field. If its resin I will manage however, but if it is plastic I would love to exchange some of my pesky metal models when they are released. I really dislike pinning and would rather it fall by the wayside as something we did back in the day.
2011/04/18 17:24:35
Subject: Re:UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
What exactly is different about working with resin? I can't imagine much of a deviation from files and some sort of glue.
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"They are not your worst nightmare; they are your every nightmare."
"Let the galaxy burn!"
2011/04/18 17:35:42
Subject: Re:UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
If you wind up making a big mess of resin, eg. you wind up sanding a whole lot or whathaveyou then the dust is toxic to breathe. Obviously not a huge concern for most gamers out there BUT there is gonna be that stupid 12 year old kid who winds up getting sick. Then it goes on the news and its a PR nightmare. GW is smart enough to realize that there are enough stupid people out there that to avoid litigation (and the mess that follows) they need to be careful with the material they pick.
2011/04/18 17:36:35
Subject: UPDATED list of discontinued GW models...
asimo77 wrote:What exactly is different about working with resin? I can't imagine much of a deviation from files and some sort of glue.
Basically: resin is more fragile, but holds detail better than metal/plastic.
You have to be very, very careful when doing the 'basics' and removing mold-lines, cast points, etc.
In many cases, you'll use the exact same kind of glue as you would for metal models, the exact same knives to clean moldlines, yadda yadda yadda.
The only real difference is that if you do a large amount of filing/sanding/sawing(which you will do on FW's larger kits): the dust kicked up is a carcinogen.
Wetting your file/sandpaper/hacksaw and working outside will offset that, but it doesn't hurt to wear a dust mask and glasses just so the stuff doesn't get in your eyes or nose/mouth.
Now, working indoors with a ventilated setting? Yeah. You'll want a dust mask and glasses. Especially if you're using a Dremel to sand the stuff down.
But then again, you're supposed to wear a mask when airbrushing if you read the warning labels on Vallejo's thinners.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Knight Luke wrote:If you wind up making a big mess of resin, eg. you wind up sanding a whole lot or whathaveyou then the dust is toxic to breathe. Obviously not a huge concern for most gamers out there BUT there is gonna be that stupid 12 year old kid who winds up getting sick. Then it goes on the news and its a PR nightmare. GW is smart enough to realize that there are enough stupid people out there that to avoid litigation (and the mess that follows) they need to be careful with the material they pick.
And they've already got warnings on everything.
The baggies that FW stuff come in have warning labels on them, the FW site has a warning in their "Working with Resin" FAQ, and more besides.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/18 17:37:49