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Leprousy wrote:I understand gw wanting to protect their IP, but i am getting sick of all the stupid lawsuits. This pretty well puts the nail in the coffin for me. I was contemplating starting a second 40k army, or switching to warmachine. This makes my choice for me. Privateer press, whoich allows online army creators to operate, here's my money!

They have to file lawsuits or risk losing their IP. If they don't file the suits, then another company can use that against them in court and GW could then be judged as having forfeited said rights. Considering GW is built on its IP, far more than its game design, that would be the kiss of death to GW if it were to happen. They know that. That's why they do file the lawsuits. They aren't being malicious about it, even the Battlescribe guy said they were very amiable about the whole thing, but they have to do it or risk losing their IP, and thus, their core product, leaving the company dead in the water.

That's only true for trademarks.

Copyright cannot be "lost".

The worst that can happen commercially is that the free army building software could drive the GW version out of the market.

oni wrote:
I refuse to purchase Army Builder until the price is cut significantly and the GUI isn't a circa Win98 and an archaic pile of gak.

Funny thing. I got the GW ones first and got used to that clunky interface so when I tried out AB I thought it was hopelessly cluttered. Now AB strikes me as pretty streamlined. I gin up a list much faster than I ever could with the GW one.

Kanluwen wrote:
I have to say, that project was doomed from the start.

From people being able to make spreadsheets to Army Builder(which supported more army systems than simply 40k)--it wasn't going to ever really take off unless they did something 'extra'.

I don't think it was doomed. I think there's a sizeable chunk of the player base who would automatically see a GW list builder as inherently superior because of the logo, assume that their data was more accurate/error free, and look sideways at AB lists as a result. I think GW blew it because they couldn't resist splitting their program into two parts and then didn't update the programs to keep up with the changes in the game. I guess it's understandable since they don't even like updating the rules for their core games. They basically ceded the market to Lone Wolf.

This is the developer for Army Creator Mobile. Some of you may have seen my postings elsewhere regarding this Android app that was released last month. I too have been contacted by GW with a "Notice of Infringement" and I'm assuming that at least 2 other apps that were on Android/iOS have been contacted as they have been pulled. My app is built like Battlescribe and AB where there are data files to create for them and GW took issue with the sharing of data files. Same as Battlescribe, I removed the data files from my site where you previously could download from within the app and have kept the app in the marketplace.

I cannot stop others from creating data files and posting them if they choose to. My app does not have any GW IP information so it by itself does not infringe and GW has told me as much. They did specifically use the language of "sharing data files" in my communications with them, they are saying they could technically go after anyone who posts data files for any app and shares them.

As others have mentioned here, somehow Wolflair and AB40K.org have a gentlemen's agreement with GW that GW does not go after them. I'm not a lawyer and do not claim full knowledge here, but without any public affiliation between Wolflair and GW or any knowledge of licensing GW's information to Wolflair or AB40k.org, this to me is sounding like it is close to creating an unfair monopoly - at least by US standards. This allows Wolflair to continue to operate charging the prices they are charging without the worry of any competition. This hurts the consumers because there are obviously developers out there that will charge cheaper prices for a similar product. This last statement is what a monopoly does and is against the law. This is a different situation than the typical monopoly case as it involves someone's IP. What is unknown is whether there are agreements between Wolflair and GW that license or provide exclusive rights to AB, which would make this legal without any argument from anyone. But I would think this is not case because if it were, you would see that as the response and probably have Wolflair also look to enforce their exclusive rights. GW is well within their rights to protect their IP, but giving a pass to certain parties and not others just seems wrong.

I want to make it clear that I'm not claiming any of the parties mentioned above are breaking the law. I'm only pointing out that it seems very fishy and could warrant further investigation by someone. Of course, I would bet that if pushed GW would close down AB rather than open up to everyone else.

Someone should use clean room reverse engineering technique to write a specification for you to write an Army Creator that would be compatible with the data files for Army Builder.

Found this on the wolflair forums. Explains the history of AB and GW, at least through 2008. I don't think anything has changed since then, but it is clear there is no license that they have with GW.

http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=8008

Does anyone even know how to open the .ab files outside of AB into a readable format?

I must admit I'm not surprised but very disappointed, I have use this program for as long as I can remember and it forms a vital tool of my hobby for me and my friends.

So what's the best way forward to make sure that this program of genius does not die.


And by reading the above link it's more important now than ever for the community to get involved.

Basically, all this means is someone has to be willing to step up and make a simple website that only hosts files.

Or the website could not even contain any actual files and just be a community hub, with the files distributed via other means... this would be a much safer approach.

Battelscribe comes in .zip format, so it would be very easy to create a pre-packed 40k/fantasy build of Battlescribe that the end-user can simply unzip and start using right away. Such a project could then simply be uploaded to sourceforge as a modified build of someone else's open-source code, which the original owner cannot be held to account for, as some "other random internet person" has taken their code and modified it. We can't expect Battlescribe's creator to do all of the legwork for us anymore, he's got GW legal breathing down his neck.

It's quite simple, and will only take about an afternoon's worth of effort by someone who already has the files... whether anyone is willing to put the effort in is another matter entirely. In my experience, I've seen plenty of examples where the public love to make use of stuff like this, but when it comes to contributing tumbleweeds roll past...

For my part, I'm looking into making Kings of War army lists for Battlescribe, I'm not really that interested in GW stuff at the moment.. Mantic have all their rules and army lists as free online downloads so there isn't a legal issue there.

castellan wrote:I think I got all the files while the getting was good.

There is such a thing as google cache... The "getting" will be good for quite awhile.

And don't worry. The files are both out there, and will be moved if we can to a community based site if all possible. There are a bunch of options available, and interim solutions. Quite a few of us have put in some hard work on the files, so we will see them go on. We just want to make sure Battlescribe isn't associated with it and or liable for it. If anything, it's really easy to create your own files, and is great for your own use. I was an instant convert when I was able to sit down in a few hours and hack out a basic file for myself to use. Something I could never do in AB. AB was a ton of work. From what I gather, there is no issue with Battlescribe itself, and he will continue his great work on the project. So nothing lost out here.

Toreador wrote:If anything, it's really easy to create your own files, and is great for your own use. I was an instant convert when I was able to sit down in a few hours and hack out a basic file for myself to use. Something I could never do in AB. AB was a ton of work.

+1 to this. It is really easy for someone without any programming knowledge to go ahead and make their own files in Battlescribe. It's just as easy as making a roster.

As an example, the Kings of War project I started yesterday?

Already completed the gamesystem file and the catalogue files for 3 of the armies... only spent about 6 hours working on it so far.

I agree with every thing said here in well...all the posts. What I want to do is host the files...and I have been in talk with other people what what to do the same thing. The problem seems to be that is we do that we know that GW will come after us...and it may cause problems for Battlescribe as well. Now the problem I have is this...AB has been doing this for years and making money off of it as well. Battlescribe is doing this for free and now GW is having a problem with it? That just does not seem right to me...

Now here is what I have to say about the data files...

Warmonger Gameday will be host the files. I just have to figure out how I'm going to do it. Yes I know GW will come after me but IMO someone has to stand up in a way to this. Either they let us do this as well or stop AB from doing it. You can not play fav here IMO.

Now when I do this I need a team to help with the data files...any one willing to help?

I just wish that GW would focus more on helping people enjoy the hobby, instead they have jumped in league with a force far more evil then Horus or even the Chaos gods themselves... that evil force I speak of is lawyers. Of course this is my personal opinion and I am stating such so the bloodthirsty Attorney legions from the 7th layer of hell have no power to attack me with there evil powers.

FOR THE EMPEROR! ((Used in reference to some other Emperor, as I clearly do not mean anyone in the 40k Universe or their copyrights))

baranowito wrote:As others have mentioned here, somehow Wolflair and AB40K.org have a gentlemen's agreement with GW that GW does not go after them. I'm not a lawyer and do not claim full knowledge here, but without any public affiliation between Wolflair and GW or any knowledge of licensing GW's information to Wolflair or AB40k.org, this to me is sounding like it is close to creating an unfair monopoly - at least by US standards. This allows Wolflair to continue to operate charging the prices they are charging without the worry of any competition. This hurts the consumers because there are obviously developers out there that will charge cheaper prices for a similar product. This last statement is what a monopoly does and is against the law. This is a different situation than the typical monopoly case as it involves someone's IP. What is unknown is whether there are agreements between Wolflair and GW that license or provide exclusive rights to AB, which would make this legal without any argument from anyone. But I would think this is not case because if it were, you would see that as the response and probably have Wolflair also look to enforce their exclusive rights. GW is well within their rights to protect their IP, but giving a pass to certain parties and not others just seems wrong.

I want to make it clear that I'm not claiming any of the parties mentioned above are breaking the law. I'm only pointing out that it seems very fishy and could warrant further investigation by someone. Of course, I would bet that if pushed GW would close down AB rather than open up to everyone else.

This might be an interesting intellectual exercise. Can a company selectively enforce their copyrights, thereby advantaging another unlicensed party? Is the failure to license the work either (1) create a defense to infringement for other parties; or (2) create a case of collusion (of the Lanham variety)?

I'm thinking the answers are "Yes" and "No," but that's just a gut instinct.

UsdiThunder wrote:For those who use excel that's nice, but how do I trust you put everything correctly or that you aren't flubbing a rule or a number. Pen and paper circumspect as well.

How do you know I didn't edit the AB or BS datafiles before I made the list?

Question here for any lawyers watching: How does indirect infringement factor into any army list creation tools?

Indirect Infringement
Contributory infringement results when somebody knows of the direct infringement of another and substantially participates in that infringement, such as inducing, causing, or materially contributing to the infringing conduct. That substantial participation could take the form of providing a device or service that facilitates the infringement if that device or service has no substantial use other than infringement.

Vicarious Infringement
Vicarious infringement results when there has been a direct infringement and the vicarious infringer is in a position to control the direct infringer and benefits financially from the infringemen

One would think that if the individual data files are infringing on copyright, then providing the software to write and display them would also be infringing.


Edit - another point:
GW attempted to release their own Interactive Army List tool. Well, they released it, but it floundered because AB was so successful. If they could have brought down AB (or at least the GW files) they would have.

Trasvi wrote:One would think that if the individual data files are infringing on copyright, then providing the software to write and display them would also be infringing.

Maybe.

Does the creator of AB have "the right and ability to control the direct infringer"? That is, could he design his software to prevent infringement, while still maintaining noninfringing functionality?

Does the creator of AB "benefit financially from the infringement"? Does he obtain a financial benefit based on the infringement? Are people more likely to buy his product because of the infringement?

Of course, the next question is: Is it worth GW's time and effort to go after him?

Trasvi, you're ignoring the existence of fair use of databases of facts.

I have a nice two page reference sheet for the Daemon codex that I sat down and wrote based on the Chaos Daemon codex. Microsoft isn't guilty of vicarious infringement because I used their word processor to infringe on GW's copyrights.

Wolf Lair is probably skirting by the vicarious infringement problem by not being "in a position to control the direct infringer"--anyone can put up a datafile and they don't check for accuracy or completeness or anything else in the data files they link to, and I'm sure they'd be willing to remove any of the links if GW asked them to.

There's also the defense that their product is sufficiently generic that it has sufficient non-infringing uses to make it more like a word processor or VCR than old-Napster on the "evil devices capable of infringing copyright" scale.

Trasvi wrote:Edit - another point:
GW attempted to release their own Interactive Army List tool. Well, they released it, but it floundered because AB was so successful. If they could have brought down AB (or at least the GW files) they would have.

This is incorrect.
GW's product didn't flounder because AB was so succesful. It floundered because it was such a horrible product.

Eric

biccat wrote:

Trasvi wrote:One would think that if the individual data files are infringing on copyright, then providing the software to write and display them would also be infringing.

Maybe.

Does the creator of AB have "the right and ability to control the direct infringer"? That is, could he design his software to prevent infringement, while still maintaining noninfringing functionality?

Does the creator of AB "benefit financially from the infringement"? Does he obtain a financial benefit based on the infringement? Are people more likely to buy his product because of the infringement?

Of course, the next question is: Is it worth GW's time and effort to go after him?

Do they have the ability to control the infringer? Most definitely. If the data files themselves are infringing (which seems the case, based on the original topic of this discussion that GW asked Battlescribe to remove their files) then Wolflair has both the ability to stop hosting the files, or to stop providing the program which creates the data files.
Do they benefit financially? Wolflair has said (in the linked History of GW + AB) that their Warhammer/40k data files are by far their most popular. Most people are buying AB to use GW's files.

I'm not saying Wolflair is guilty. Given GW's litigious history, I assume if GW had a hope of getting the 40k files removed they would have. I'm just wondering, what makes them not guilty?

And part of what I wonder, is GW going after them because of their trademarked words used in the data files? Or because the creator by hosting the files along with the application even if indirectly is making money off of a GW product?

GW only has trademarks on iconic words. Everything else is not covered. The points costs aren't covered, the generic common use words aren't covered. If all trademarked words were removed, would there even be anything for them to go after? I am just curious I haven't seen much on something like this before.

I dont know about the area the developer is in, in Dallas there is a Lawyers association that will refer you to an attorney for a cheap 1 hour consultation. When I say cheap, I mean $40 for the hour. During that time you can talk to the attorney and he can and will answer any questions you have.

From what little I remember, GW cannot copyright stats and rules. They can copyright the books and drawings and stories from the books. So you shouldnt be able to take a GW picture from a codex and put it in your application, or a paragraph from the codex.

You should be able to put simple summarized rules, short sentences, statements and even stat lines.

I do suggest talking with an attorney, and also note that even though what you are doing could be completely legal, it does not mean GW wont try to sue you anyways.

I have posted in the past what is and what is not copyrighted in the US.

Here is the URL to take a look at.

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

Trasvi wrote: ... ...

I'm not saying Wolflair is guilty. Given GW's litigious history, I assume if GW had a hope of getting the 40k files removed they would have. I'm just wondering, what makes them not guilty?

They don't create or host the data files. That makes them not guilty.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Trasvi wrote: ... ...

I'm not saying Wolflair is guilty. Given GW's litigious history, I assume if GW had a hope of getting the 40k files removed they would have. I'm just wondering, what makes them not guilty?

They don't create or host the data files. That makes them not guilty.

That's a pretty weak case. Their program even alerts you when the files have been updated and download and installs them for you. I think if GW really wanted them gone it would happen.

They also have download links posted on their website.

Vaktathi wrote:

Leprousy wrote:I understand gw wanting to protect their IP, but i am getting sick of all the stupid lawsuits. This pretty well puts the nail in the coffin for me. I was contemplating starting a second 40k army, or switching to warmachine. This makes my choice for me. Privateer press, whoich allows online army creators to operate, here's my money!

They have to file lawsuits or risk losing their IP. If they don't file the suits, then another company can use that against them in court and GW could then be judged as having forfeited said rights. Considering GW is built on its IP, far more than its game design, that would be the kiss of death to GW if it were to happen. They know that. That's why they do file the lawsuits. They aren't being malicious about it, even the Battlescribe guy said they were very amiable about the whole thing, but they have to do it or risk losing their IP, and thus, their core product, leaving the company dead in the water.

I do not believe that you can lose copyright that way. You could lose trademark i suppose? Unless battlescribe is including all of the needed information to play an army in their army list creator there is even an argument of whether they are violating any significant amount of IP. Does battlescribe include special rules and stats? It seems to me that battlescribe is merely a free tool, but in order for a consumer to make use of GW's IP a copy of GW's published work is still required. That is why morally i feel that GW's actions are malicious. Just because GW are being amiable in tone does not mean that their actions are not malicious.

I am currently painting my first warmachine warjack, and i am quite pleased with my choice to not provide GW with money to pay their lawyers.

OK.

People have asked why GW haven't shut Wolf's Lair down.

The answer is they can't, because what Wolf's Lair do is legal.

People have asked how it is legal, and that has been explained.

If you don't believe these explanations, please do some research into IP law for yourself, and see if you can come up with a different explanation.

^^ I did do some research, and I found the Contributory/Vicarious infringement. I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that there would be at least a strong argument to be made that Wolflair is an indirect infringer.

As Griever said, saying 'we don't have anything to do with it' is a pretty weak excuse when they have links on their website and an auto-update function.

Furthermore, if the case brought against Battlescribe was specifically related to them posting links to the data files, then Wolflair is doing something extremely similar.

Wolf Lair can afford Lawyers. Battlescribe can't.

That is what this boils down to.

Kilkrazy wrote:OK.

People have asked why GW haven't shut Wolf's Lair down.

The answer is they can't, because what Wolf's Lair do is legal.

People have asked how it is legal, and that has been explained.

If you don't believe these explanations, please do some research into IP law for yourself, and see if you can come up with a different explanation.

I disagree, but this is looking too much like work. Plus, it's too close to giving a legal opinion rather than discussing the legal topics, which could raise issues that I'm not excited about dealing with.