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UsdiThunder wrote:All in all GW is within their rights. I just think in that squashing products like battle scribe hurt them more than they realize. Hell if GW would develop a flash version that resided on ther website they would gain the knowledge of what the players are playing. They would know that the Nids Codex ran off a lot of Nid players. It would be instant marketing data for them.

...

Very true. Good point!

I had never thought of that.

I bet GW haven't either, but there's hundreds of millions of reasons why they should have.

I think I got all the files while the getting was good.

I've been using Battle Scribe since its initial release, it's a great program that has come a long way. If allowed to continue it has the potential to sink Army Builder.

I have a hard time believing that GW didn't know about Battle Scribe. What I'm curious about is whether or not the current version, which asks for donations, had anything to do with the issuance of the C&D. It's almost as if the very moment the software author asked for monetary compensation albeit voluntary, GW stepped in and gave it the axe.

UsdiThunder wrote:I just went on to Battlescribe and saw this:

Tuesday, April 19, 2011Notice of Infringement
Today Games Workshop sent me a notice of infringement asking me to remove data files and links to them from the BattleScribe website and software. Basically the information included in the data files infringes on Games Workshop's (and other companies') copyrights. Although I knew this in the first place, I hoped that linking to these data files on another site would be OK. I have had to remove all data files and links to data files from the BattleScribe software and the website.
<snip>

You know, BattleScribe might have had some argument before they went and said this.

If you get a C&D letter in the mail, don't post a public message that says: "Dang, you caught us infringing your copyrights, which was totally wrong of us, because we were totally infringing your copyrights."

I suppose if GW Legal were really serious about damaging the hobby they would sue BattleScribe for damages as well, because BS practically admitted liability.

I thought GW did take AB to court and AB won. Or maybe is a legal precedent set from another case that allows them use the material. They are creating anything new and you will note that there is a time period between the release of the Codex and then the update to AB. I have not had AB long but I would speculate there is maybe a set time frame from the release to AB update.

I don't think Battle Scribe is down for the count. The software package comes with a catalog creator/editor. We could form a community and share the army catalogs much like that of Army Builder.

I just recently started using BattleScribe and I love it. Shame I only got three armies before the crackdown. But I can spend hours just making different Tau lists in there.

I have to agree it was kind of dumb for the owner to come out and declare guilt to everyone. But let's get together as a community and continue to support a great tool!

Seems easier just to use the community and catalogs already formed by army builder .. instead of a dying program

I think it is highly likely that this came about because BattleScribe recently (4/4/2011) was released for Android smartphones.

This could mean a number of things... that GW is producing their own list creator for iPhone/Android... that BattleScribe did something wrong... that GW have an unwritten agreement with WolfLair.
Was battlescribe available for other game systems other than GW ones? There is at least one other 40k-only army list creator available on Android.

What this means for me, currently in development of a list tool for Android, I don't know.
Watch out for Wardroid by the end of this year.

yeah,
I probabily would never of stepped away from AB if they had apple mac support.

Most software companies now realise that it's not so hard to make apple compatible software...

I just installed portal2. see you in a few days

Panic...

Kirasu wrote:Seems easier just to use the community and catalogs already formed by army builder .. instead of a dying program

one is free and one isn't.

Panic wrote:yeah,
I probabily would never of stepped away from AB if they had apple mac support.

Most software companies now realise that it's not so hard to make apple compatible software...

They've quietly mentioned they're working on Mac and iOS support, I believe. They've kept relatively quiet, presumably because they're learning to do it themselves instead of farming it out. I approve of this, but I hope they decide to go of 'functional' even if they need to drop the special skins and such. Honestly, my only issue with Army Builder is that the skins annoy me and it seems to use non-standard controls, but I believe that's better with newer versions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additional: The reason I approve of WolfLair doing it 'in house' (even if that's hiring a "Mac Guy") instead of looking to a company that does ports is it'll probably stay in-sync with the Windows version better. They've been pretty honest that the main reason they're doing a Mac version is as a way to get their hands dirty to do a iOS version.

So realistically there is an incredibly easy way around this. I know it complicates things for the end user a bit but there's absolutely nothing GW can do about it.

Build two separate functions for your software - one for army list building and one for data file building. The data file software doesn't have to do a lot outside of allow a user to input the data from their codex and store it in a text file.

Gets a bit more complicated to do for mobile OS but for PC/Mac it's not too complicated.

My guess is that BS got in trouble because he did everything himself. Everything was his, owned by him, linked by him and created by him.
Wolf Lair creates a product and links it to a page where OTHER PEOPLE have uploaded files to be used with it. "Wink, wink, nudge, nudge" as this may be, it's technically true.

I would suspect that GW tried to bully them early on, and they flexed back. It wouldn't be the first time GW backed down when presented with a strong legal rebuttal.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Wolf Lair creates a product and links it to a page where OTHER PEOPLE have uploaded files to be used with it. "Wink, wink, nudge, nudge"

This is exactly what can be done with Battle Scribe as well.

I refuse to purchase Army Builder until the price is cut significantly and the GUI isn't a circa Win98 and an archaic pile of gak.

Agreed 100%.
Can be done.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like BS intends on doing that.


As for AB... I agree on your price assessment. When's the last time you used the product, though? I find the current GUI to be quite well laid out.

Eric

FYI, I asked Rob over at Lone Wolf a couple years ago about GW using Army Builder. Basically he was amenable to the idea and approached GW to license the product, but GW wanted exclusivity, i.e. LW wouldn't be allowed to have it support other game systems. Rob told them no way and thus there was no agreement between the two parties.

I do not know how they get away with linking to the AB files directly from the program. It probably has something to do with linking to a specific website and not specific files, i.e. AB just reports on *all* files that show up there and Lone Wolf has no control over what users upload. Thus they can avoid liability altogether. IMO the only thing GW could do is try and go after the hosting service for contributory violations of their IP (if that's even a crime). Otherwise GW is out of luck there. Not sure why BattleScribe could not do the same unless they simply folded after receiving the C&D letter. I suspect LW probably has enough money to afford a lawyer willing to hit back, thus making the GW bully tactics not as effective as they would like them to be. IMO GW rely on ignorance on the part of the target for their tactics to work. When that fails GW has to decide if they feel they have a real case and if they do then I have no doubt they would prosecute.

Cheers, Gary

Long ago there was a game company own by a man named David Kenzer and in 1994 he published Kingdoms of Kalamar, a fantasy campaign for AD&D. Now at that time TSR was a sue happy organization but they did even bother to even tangle with this little company. The reason why is that Mr. Kenzer is an expert in copyright law in the US.

When 4th ED came out he reissued the campaign setting and simply stated "for use with fourth edition dungeons and dragons".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_use
http://robertsongames.com/dnd/kenzer-co-dd-and-trademarks

The moral of all of this is. IF YOU ARE GOING TO publish anything do your homework first.

GW legal department is simply going after people that they know that they can bully around and get away with it.

GW wants the easy kill. They are not willing (IMHO) to pay for the large legal expenses that are going to be compounded while fighting a long and protracted legal battle. Especially here in the US.

bty this is the company now
http://www.kenzerco.com/

I think of AB kinda in the same boat as a emulater the software is fine as its just a engine. Its the roms or in this case datalists that are potentially a ip violation.

As I understand it, the core program does not infringe. It is merely an engine to process databases.

Battle Scribe could release the database format, allowing enthusiastic fans/scummy data pirates to fill in the required information and publish army modules on blogs, etc.

Lots of games have this kind of army builder program provided by the publisher. I am surprised that GW haven't launched one for their games.

Thanks for your support everyone

To be clear GW are not suing me/BattleScribe and have merely asked me to remove data files/links to data files from the site and applications. They have been very reasonable about it. I've complied with their request and BattleScribe is not at risk - the software itself doesn't infringe anything. The are certainly not out for blood here, nor are they bullying me in any way. I think they realise the benefit of such programs outweighs any "piracy" issues. They do have to protect their IP though, and I don't have a problem with that.

Also, I announced the situation on the website because I have tried to be transparent about all aspects of creating/maintaining BattleScribe. Since this request meant changes to the forum/website etc, I feel it's only fair to let the users know what's happening and why. I'm certainly not going out of my way to kick up a stink - I think my post was entirely fair to GW, and merely explained the facts of the situation.

There remains then the question of the "Data Project" site, containing the files. Although I initially created the site and have spent time keeping it up to date, it was always the intention for it to be community project. I have just maintained it, and I don't consider myself to own the site or the files (which have been created and donated by community members). In fact they are under a sort of open source license that leaves the IP owned by the company that made it. Of course the fact that I made the software too muddies this a bit... vested interests etc. I've said this to GW and am awaiting a reply. If they ask me to take down that site, I'm not going to fight them.

I had wanted to get around to properly washing my hands of the Data Project after getting it up and running. I just never got around to it - programming is much more fun than admin The KnowledgeForge site it's hosted on can be publicly accessed by anyone (you can check out from the SVN repo there without a password), and anyone can sign up, be given admin access and then commit to SVN/maintain the webpages etc. It's similar to SourceForge and other open source software hosting sites.

The desktop version of BattleScribe has editors for the files bundled with it, so worst comes to worst you can always create your own.

I don't think this has come about because of the donation button, or mobile app advertising (the money). Remember AB requires a subscription.

Finally I think the AB40K project "gets away with it" because they are completely unaffiliated with AB/Wolf Lair. I think in fact that GW turns a blind eye to them. I've been told by the AB40K guys that were GW to ask them to take it down, they would have to. They haven't been asked to, and the site has remained for some years. I think that BattleScribe could have a similar project, following the same model as AB40K, and it would probably be fine. The worst that would happen is GW would ask for it to be taken down.

Anway, apologies for the wall of text. I hope it explains things a bit better.

Sure wish there was a good computer generated army builder that I could use without having to watch it become useless gak in five minutes.


Too bad they don't support thier own games.....


Anyone want to buy these two GW cd's full of gak? Nice price, and only dropped once.

Grot 6 wrote:Too bad they don't support thier own games.....

They need all staff to sue others who support GW games

Grot 6 wrote:Sure wish there was a good computer generated army builder that I could use without having to watch it become useless gak in five minutes.


Too bad they don't support thier own games.....


Anyone want to buy these two GW cd's full of gak? Nice price, and only dropped once.

I have to say, that project was doomed from the start.

From people being able to make spreadsheets to Army Builder(which supported more army systems than simply 40k)--it wasn't going to ever really take off unless they did something 'extra'.

Updating their own product frequently would have helped...

But that makes it no different than Army Builder, still.

If they'd made it so that you could buy an entire Codex via the program--it might have worked.

Big P wrote:"Grand Lord Kirby, we have found the culpirt!"

"Pray tell, who is it?"

"They call him 'Internet' my leige."

"Bring me the head of Internet!"

This has all the hallmarks of win.

Hellfury wrote:

Big P wrote:"Grand Lord Kirby, we have found the culpirt!"

"Pray tell, who is it?"

"They call him 'Internet' my leige."

"Bring me the head of Internet!"

This has all the hallmarks of win.

MagickalMemories wrote:Agreed 100%.
Can be done.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like BS intends on doing that.


As for AB... I agree on your price assessment. When's the last time you used the product, though? I find the current GUI to be quite well laid out.

Eric

I downloaded the trial for version of 3.3 to see if they may have made it better and was still the same horrible GUI.

Fair enough.
I happen to like it.
Different strokes and all... : )

Eric