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What is the sentiment within the UK towards past persecution of the Irish and Scots by the English? Something like 'the past is the past', 'we're all one happy family now'? Maybe memories of this have something to do with the latest election results.

PERSECUTION?! What the feth do you know about it? Please, explain to me how the English have persecuted the Scottish and Irish.

You know, coming from the country you do, you have a nerve talking about 'persecution' of the people you share your country with. The British Isles have a history of conflict - you can drive across our island in less than half a day. It's small. That small island is shared by countries which have had vastly different cultures at various times, and there has always been a struggle for regional power, these struggles are a product of their time. Basically England usually wins. That does NOT add up to 'persecution', and I would advise you to conduct yourself with greater intelligence when discussing issues such as these, or better still, not discussing them at all, as you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Even when talking about the Irish Potato Famine, that too was a product of it's time - as result of terrible government policy, as opposed to intentional genocide - though it was undoubtedly a tragedy, and a shameful episode. However, other countries have treated their colonies with much, much more malice than the British did. Ever hear of the Belgian Congo? Or Germany's African colonies? Hell, what about the American expansion west, if you want to talk about persecution?

Ah, but you want to talk about BRITISH persecution, in a thread that isn't about that.


On-Topic: People only voted SNP because Salmond made empty promises to increase spending (with who's money? Oh, I see...) during a time when the British government has to make deep cuts. Problem is, he's in power now, and has no choice but to renege on those promises. As soon as the economy starts to improve, the SNP will go back to being an ethnic nationalist party run by a social inadequate with a wonky face, and will be paid little attention. Just like the BNP.

They will never secede. Thread over.

Being a Scot myself; from Glasgow; the reason why the SNP won is pretty simple. They are the party with the best connection to Scotland. All parties are full of lying, cheating scum...but to have a party thats pretty focused on your country is the best one to choose; when the party in Westminster knows absolutely nothing about Scotland.

Some of the things here are quite hilariously wrong. There is a hate against England; but not so much against the 'common folk' like us. Its more a hate of institutions (like the royal family; who **** our natural heritage) and parties like the Tories; filled with inbred Eton *******s like Cameron. I'm actually friends with quite a lot of English folk. For some people; there is a historical side to the hatred. That can't be changed really though; once a bed is made you lie in it.

Another thing...people seem to forget that Scotland is a pretty good place for Research and Science in general. Alot of cutting edge research is done here; we're one of the best inventive people in the world. If anyone doesn't believe that look at some of the things we've made that people use all over the world now. I agree; just now we can't pay for ourselves. But eventually we will be able to.

I agree; we probably won't pull from the Union. Which is why I think its best to absolutely milk England for all they've got.

I just hope we're part of the union for long enough to see the Royal Family get the chop....France really knew what to do with their monarchs. But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

You that confident alby?

They will NEVER secede?!

I saw on BBC yesterday that they are looking at a referendum on it.

If they can keep getting money out of us, they absolutely will.

mattyrm wrote:You that confident alby?

They will NEVER secede?!

I saw on BBC yesterday that they are looking at a referendum on it.

If they can keep getting money out of us, they absolutely will.

I wouldn't be so sure. Didn't you notice that it would be in 5 years time? That to me means he's playing for time, either to bring people around to it or come up with another delay.

If they secede, no way should they keep getting money out of it. Frankly, the situation as it stands is bloody unfair- money made in England is providing (for example) free teritary education for people in Scotland who have political sway in England which doesn't go the other way. Totally arse backwards.
Similar to the situation in my home country with EU money for many years. I hope they don't secede, but if they do, I would be skeptical that the EU would take them in. There are a good few criteria to meet before you get accepted and you can bet Brussels will go through it with a fine toothed comb to keep Scotland out right now.

I'd invite Scotland as the 51 State of America.

Great jumping off point for invading the rest of the EU.

My biggest fear is that Scotland will secede, and then.
a) My tuition will go up.
b) I'll have to reapply for another damn student visa.

So I'm all for the, 'invite to become the 51st state' thing. I'm sure Mel Gibson can make 'Feth the English 3' which has the Americans and the Scots teaming up against the English or something.

ChrisWWII wrote:
So I'm all for the, 'invite to become the 51st state' thing. I'm sure Mel Gibson can make 'Feth the English 3' which has the Americans and the Scots teaming up against the English or something.

It will be called Bravefield Earth, wherein the evil British aliens invade America, and the timely intervention of the Scottish causes the entire southern half of the British Isles to explode, all the while the America company Hasbro secretly buys out GW and transfers all production of models to China.

Steu wrote:Most of the trouble makers are proberbly the Irish imagrents that support the IRA just take a look how celtic football club act to rangers and the rest of the uk. So all the Scots are not to blame but if they want indep let them more money for the rest of the uk england already gets screwed with the cash distribution

I know that this is the Hate Blender, but please refrain from slagging off an entire ethnic group.

Thank you.

Either I've got thin skin or some of this is crossing some lines.
I'll wash my hands of this thread before I see more.

Mr Hyena wrote: If anyone doesn't believe that look at some of the things we've made that people use all over the world now. I agree; just now we can't pay for ourselves. But eventually we will be able to.

I agree; we probably won't pull from the Union. Which is why I think its best to absolutely milk England for all they've got.

Right, so you think that the best way to gain independence is by being financially dependent on England. You're a genius.



GDP of Scotland = £86.3 billion. That's just above Angola, which is ranked 61st in the world by GDP.

We make more than that just from tourism in England. Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

I just hope we're part of the union for long enough to see the Royal Family get the chop....France really knew what to do with their monarchs.

The same thing we did to yours, you mean? Again, never going to happen.

But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

Their ours now.

Albatross wrote: Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

What could Scotland use for their own capital and financing? Perhaps that could help wean them off the UK economic system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland#Natural_resources

Albatross wrote:PERSECUTION?! What the feth do you know about it? Please, explain to me how the English have persecuted the Scottish and Irish.

•In York, excluding Sundays, it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow.

Besides that you have the whole "Irish eat horse meat" insults of the past. That along with using them as a slave force in Antigua and some other Caribbean islands.

Then there was Braveheart, the fact that you gave Mel Gibson to act in was a horrible atrocity against God.

Albatross wrote:

But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

Their ours now.

Queen Victoria single handedly invented the Scottish break holiday by living in those castles for a bit. The Scottish tourism industry is a German, er English, invention.

Yeah but all that animosity is yonks ago and really, nobody should care about it beyond noting it and getting on with their lives. The rich bastards in every country are bastards to everyone else around them, it's not a nationality thing. It just sometimes suits the rich bastards to make out that it is so we keep squabbling and don't realise who's pulling the strings.

Albatross wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote: If anyone doesn't believe that look at some of the things we've made that people use all over the world now. I agree; just now we can't pay for ourselves. But eventually we will be able to.

I agree; we probably won't pull from the Union. Which is why I think its best to absolutely milk England for all they've got.

Right, so you think that the best way to gain independence is by being financially dependent on England. You're a genius.



GDP of Scotland = £86.3 billion. That's just above Angola, which is ranked 61st in the world by GDP.

We make more than that just from tourism in England. Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

I just hope we're part of the union for long enough to see the Royal Family get the chop....France really knew what to do with their monarchs.

The same thing we did to yours, you mean? Again, never going to happen.

But again; that likely won't happen as the English like them for some reason...so they'll continue to come to Scotland and use OUR castles.

Their ours now.

I'm relieved we kicked you all to the curb years ago. I just find it sad that we couldn't really steal anything castly on our way out. We had to steal all of our heritage and names from a civilization that didn't have good stonework.

no problems with Scotland going independant as long as they manage their own finances and England stops sending money north of the border.

Its sad how its £9k student fee's in England, free in Scotland
Its sad how its £7.40 odd for medicines in England, free in Scotland :(
but then even though this is a bad inequality its alot down to our own government :(

As for the Scots themselves, have no issues with them (Aside from my ex *grumbles). People are people wherever you go. At least they voted the t***'s out unlike us who while punishing the Lib Dems didnt seem to notice the it's the Tory's doing most of the real crap. (But then when you have a choice between blue excrement, red faeces and yellow turds what can you vote for >.<

Right, so you think that the best way to gain independence is by being financially dependent on England. You're a genius.

Thats not what I said. I said if we can't get independence the next best thing is to merely get more income from England. Then again...the whole 'financially dependent' thing wouldn't have been a problem if things were done differently in the past; and that our culture wasn't utterly destroyed.

We make more than that just from tourism in England. Once again, Scotland will never secede. You're all basically just bitter because you feel you're dependent on us. Which you are, of course, but you'd probably feel much better if you all just realised that you ARE us. You're British and always will be, so you might as well get used to it because being part of the UK is Scotland's meal ticket.

I'm not british. I put faith in my country before I'd put faith in england and its inbred, degenerate royal family.

Their ours now.

Stolen, yes.

PERSECUTION?! What the feth do you know about it? Please, explain to me how the English have persecuted the Scottish and Irish.

The dismantling of scottish culture at the time isn't persecution?

Lets just stop this pretence of politeness Hyena, you irrationally hate me due to childhood indoctrination and I have responded in kind and hate you back. I'm comfortable with this equation.

I want another war.

We have the Royal Marines, The Paras, the SBS, the SAS, and you guys have the 4/5 Royal Highland Dog walking regiment. We shall crush you beneath our iron heels and eat your babies. Happy fething days!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:

The dismantling of scottish culture at the time isn't persecution?

Who is there who actually lives in 2011 England, that personally persecuted "the Scottish"?

Thats not what I said. I said if we can't get independence the next best thing is to merely get more income from England. Then again...the whole 'financially dependent' thing wouldn't have been a problem if things were done differently in the past; and that our culture wasn't utterly destroyed.

Has scotland ever really maintained a good (relative) standard of living or semblance of strong cultural national identity without it being imposed on it by others? Historically it hasn't been a treasure trove of "working" culture from the perspective of western teaching.

I'm not british. I put faith in my country before I'd put faith in england and its inbred, degenerate royal family.

Inbreeding wasn't an irregular occurrence amongst scottish nobility and it's genepool is somewhat shallow as a "people" (evidenced by the strong and unusual hereditary traits of hair color and complexion found virtually no where else). Pride in country is nice and all but you sound like you're just a bitter young man looking for an offense (in this case one thats not yours to feel) so that you can rebel.

Stolen, yes.

Can't you travel to most of them and tour? It's not like castles are functional or meaningful and as artifacts of war they generally belong to whoever has them now (which is you given that you don't have a country and neither does england).

The dismantling of scottish culture at the time isn't persecution?

Was and is are two different words. You people get the red carpet rolled out for you and you spit in everyones faces these days. Times sucked a century ago. Hell, times were bad sixty years ago (but that was hardly the fault of the english). Nows not then and if you tried to be autonomous you would collapse. It's time to start blaming that "culture" that the english is trying so hard to "destroy" for why your having such a tough time with your free tuition and and infrastructure.

Lets just stop this pretence of politeness Hyena, you irrationally hate me due to childhood indoctrination and I have responded in kind and hate you back. I'm comfortable with this equation.

'pretence'? 'indoctrination'?

I don't hate you. I get on well with many english folk. I just hate your country for the irreparable damage that was done.

We have the Royal Marines, The Paras, the SBS, the SAS, and you guys have the 4/5 Royal Highland Dog walking regiment. We shall crush you beneath our iron heels and eat your babies. Happy fething days!

Good luck losing the most inventive people of the UK.

Has scotland ever really maintained a good (relative) standard of living or semblance of strong cultural national identity without it being imposed on it by others? Historically it hasn't been a treasure trove of "working" culture from the perspective of western teaching.

I don't think it really matters which; Scottish culture was Scottish culture until English culture was forced apon.

Inbreeding wasn't an irregular occurrence amongst scottish nobility and it's genepool is somewhat shallow as a "people" (evidenced by the strong and unusual hereditary traits of hair color and complexion found virtually no where else). Pride in country is nice and all but you sound like you're just a bitter young man looking for an offense (in this case one thats not yours to feel) so that you can rebel.

I don't think its anybodies place to tell me (or people like me) what I can and can not think. Bitter? hardly. But the election results really show things better than words on a forum post. Its a fact that the SNP is the party with the only interest (And connection) to Scotland. Its obvious the Scottish people are going to vote for that; much like how Cameron and his ilk are only interested in England. (Which is fine. For england)

Can't you travel to most of them and tour? It's not like castles are functional or meaningful and as artifacts of war they generally belong to whoever has them now (which is you given that you don't have a country and neither does england).

I'm meaning more the ones that the english queen and her brood treat as their private holiday homes. They're still parts of scottish heritage no matter how much they think they own them.

Was and is are two different words. You people get the red carpet rolled out for you and you spit in everyones faces these days. Times sucked a century ago. Hell, times were bad sixty years ago (but that was hardly the fault of the english). Nows not then and if you tried to be autonomous you would collapse. It's time to start blaming that "culture" that the english is trying so hard to "destroy" for why your having such a tough time with your free tuition and and infrastructure.

Those who forget history are fools. Heck; the closer we get to leaving the union allows for a bigger development of scottish culture.

I don't think it really matters which; Scottish culture was Scottish culture until English culture was forced apon.

If you're of the opinion that culture is paramount and the good of the people living within it secondary then I suppose it doesn't matter that scottish culture is largely minor local and familial customs and a history of tribal sectarian grief and strife. Cultures can be dysfunctional objectively by any number of standards and the historic Scottish one was by quite a few. Why you would want that back I don't know.

I don't think its anybodies place to tell me (or people like me) what I can and can not think. Bitter? hardly. But the election results really show things better than words on a forum post. Its a fact that the SNP is the party with the only interest (And connection) to Scotland. Its obvious the Scottish people are going to vote for that; much like how Cameron and his ilk are only interested in England. (Which is fine. For england)

Thus is the problem with having two autonomous and "equally important" "cultures" within a hegemonic group. They want theirs and you want yours. Now, see, the thing is that they give a hell of a lot more to scotland then it gives back all the while it gripes and moans. As an outsider totally disconnected from the strife (and thus free from the emotional side that can strain logic) it appears that a somewhat secluded but large minority group wants to be free for the sake of being free despite being given every reasonably concession it asks for to the detriment of the giving party (and despite logic since the resulting independent state would immediately fail). In many parts of the world thats called being childish. I suppose as an American I know compulsive and unreasonable whining well. I see it constantly.

I'm meaning more the ones that the english queen and her brood treat as their private holiday homes. They're still parts of scottish heritage no matter how much they think they own them.

At this point they're part of english heritage too. You don't always get to keep what your ancestors "owned", sometimes you move on and stop whining about it.

Those who forget history are fools. Heck; the closer we get to leaving the union allows for a bigger development of scottish culture.

And those who believe history exists presently are deluded. You didn't experience that history, nor did your parents. You just want more then you deserve on the backs of the dead while being given more then you earn by people who just want you to stop throwing fits.

Mr Hyena wrote:

I don't hate you. I get on well with many english folk. I just hate your country for the irreparable damage that was done.

I don't think it really matters which; Scottish culture was Scottish culture until English culture was forced apon.

The above and much of the other stuff you’ve said sounds like the usual SNP version of history nonsense. Whats England imposed on us? certainly not our dominant language or culture.

Scotland goes out of its way to destroy its own culture and the SNP are the embodiment of the hideous tartan shortbread tin twee nonsense that prevails today. Were Scotland was a land of Gaelic speaking tartan clad Highlanders mercilessly put upon by the despicable English devils. Scotland dominant culture history that of the non Gaelic speaking Scots has been all but replaced by a fiction created by Walter Scott. Fortunately there seams to be an effort to redress the balance, the recent History of Scotland from the BBC is a good example.

Having had an SNP member as a history teacher I feel quite strongly about this stuff, her classes were not lessons but an attempt to indoctrinate us into her “the English caused all of Scotland woes ever” ideology. She even blamed the deaths in the Clydeside Blitz on England for going to war with Germany in the first place.

I spent my Childhood in the NE of England were there was an attitude to the Scots similar to some Scots have about England. For much of the Norths history the Scots were the imperialistic tyrants who came over the border to pillage and slaughter. Something worth considering before playing the victim card, history is a two way street.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm relieved we kicked you all to the curb years ago. I just find it sad that we couldn't really steal anything castly on our way out.

http://www.howdencastle.com/

halonachos wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm relieved we kicked you all to the curb years ago. I just find it sad that we couldn't really steal anything castly on our way out.

http://www.howdencastle.com/

That castle is lame.

ShumaGorath wrote:

halonachos wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm relieved we kicked you all to the curb years ago. I just find it sad that we couldn't really steal anything castly on our way out.

http://www.howdencastle.com/

That castle is lame.

1927!?! I've got shirts older than that.

A proper castle.

ShumaGorath wrote:
If you're of the opinion that culture is paramount and the good of the people living within it secondary then I suppose it doesn't matter that scottish culture is largely minor local and familial customs and a history of tribal sectarian grief and strife. Cultures can be dysfunctional objectively by any number of standards and the historic Scottish one was by quite a few. Why you would want that back I don't know.

Nationalism is rational only very rarely.

ShumaGorath wrote:
At this point they're part of english heritage too. You don't always get to keep what your ancestors "owned", sometimes you move on and stop whining about it.

Yep.

Mr Hyena wrote:Those who forget history are fools. Heck; the closer we get to leaving the union allows for a bigger development of scottish culture.

You already have Scottish culture by necessity.

Dogma gets it, the one simple point I would make is simply this. We have had good relations for fething ages, some of the most patriotically British and expansionist colonialists were Scottish, and contrary to what many Scottish people seem to think, the Battle of Bannockburn was in 1314, not 1996.

Its really absurd, If we disliked nations that we once had a war with, nobody would be mates with anyone.

And I wouldn't have went into Iraq alongside the USMC, we would have stayed in Kuwait and argued about the war of 1812 until Saddam died of old age.

The above and much of the other stuff you’ve said sounds like the usual SNP version of history nonsense. Whats England imposed on us? certainly not our dominant language or culture.

Laws were made after the battle of Cullloden (including the Dress Act, Disarming Act and Clan Act) all had a pretty massive effect on Scottish culture.

If you're of the opinion that culture is paramount and the good of the people living within it secondary then I suppose it doesn't matter that scottish culture is largely minor local and familial customs and a history of tribal sectarian grief and strife. Cultures can be dysfunctional objectively by any number of standards and the historic Scottish one was by quite a few. Why you would want that back I don't know.

*shrugs* Because its still ours; more than the currently diluted english culture we have.

Thus is the problem with having two autonomous and "equally important" "cultures" within a hegemonic group. They want theirs and you want yours. Now, see, the thing is that they give a hell of a lot more to scotland then it gives back all the while it gripes and moans. As an outsider totally disconnected from the strife (and thus free from the emotional side that can strain logic) it appears that a somewhat secluded but large minority group wants to be free for the sake of being free despite being given every reasonably concession it asks for to the detriment of the giving party (and despite logic since the resulting independent state would immediately fail). In many parts of the world thats called being childish. I suppose as an American I know compulsive and unreasonable whining well. I see it constantly.

Its not really childish. Its more that people are sick and tired of Westminster being out of touch with Scotland; and the devolution scottish government not having enough power. I'm sure Americans must have at one time at least; had a president that completely did not represent any of the people. Thats what its been like for quite some time.

At this point they're part of english heritage too. You don't always get to keep what your ancestors "owned", sometimes you move on and stop whining about it.

Sure we could; though it just points out how little culture we have left.

And those who believe history exists presently are deluded. You didn't experience that history, nor did your parents. You just want more then you deserve on the backs of the dead while being given more then you earn by people who just want you to stop throwing fits.

History influences the future. Things wouldn't be like this if things were were done different in the past.

Dogma gets it, the one simple point I would make is simply this. We have had good relations for fething ages, some of the most patriotically British and expansionist colonialists were Scottish, and contrary to what many Scottish people seem to think, the Battle of Bannockburn was in 1314, not 1996.

*Shrugs* Its possible for someone to still be angry/dislike what happened in the past and still be pleasant. Many people here haven't, and won't, forget. Doesn't mean they're gonna go on and on about it all the time though.

If you want to improve relations; vote in someone who doesn't hate scotland (like Cameron does; the prick.)

We've just had a Scottish PM and Chancellor.....


You buffoon.