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Albatross wrote:We've just had a Scottish PM and Chancellor.....


You buffoon.

Yeah and they were out of touch with here. They knew nothing and did nothing for the problems we had here.

Mr Hyena wrote:Yeah and they were out of touch with here. They knew nothing and did nothing for the problems we had here.

And you think things are rosy in the rest of the UK?

Seriously, take a look at what you are saying, and what Scotland has got out of UK membership (even above and beyond what the rest of the UK has got) and then say that you are not getting the better deal.

Free prescriptions, and Free university thanks to 31 billion pounds a year from Westminster.

Salmond knows the facts, thats why he is saying one thing and doing another.

Cant the English have a referendum and boot Scotland out first?

Seriously, take a look at what you are saying, and what Scotland has got out of UK membership (even above and beyond what the rest of the UK has got) and then say that you are not getting the better deal.

Nobody is saying we aren't getting the better deal (deserved mind...as industry here would have been better if England didnt mess with it).

What we're saying is the devolved government doesn't have enough power to fully represent the wishes of the scottish people...and if your views arent being properly listened to (on a country-wide basis) then whats the point being in a union? (The labour party and Tory scum know nothing literally about anywhere here)

Free prescriptions, and Free university thanks to 31 billion pounds a year from Westminster.

Salmond knows the facts, thats why he is saying one thing and doing another.

Cant the English have a referendum and boot Scotland out first?

You should complain to your own government for free university; its one of the most progressive ideas of this age; and is unsurprising. Scotland has always been for opening up higher education to less privilaged people; long before England did so.

Have your referendum if you want; I dare say it won't cause much fuss here.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Seriously, take a look at what you are saying, and what Scotland has got out of UK membership (even above and beyond what the rest of the UK has got) and then say that you are not getting the better deal.

Nobody is saying we aren't getting the better deal (deserved mind...as industry here would have been better if England didnt mess with it).

How? We invented heavy industry!

Nevermind, it's a totally stupid thing to say, as Scotland benefited immensely from being part of the Union during the industrial revolution. What industry do you think you would even have if you weren't attached to us, anyway?

What we're saying is the devolved government doesn't have enough power to fully represent the wishes of the scottish people...

Well, of course not. The wishes of the Scottish people would be to live pretty much how they are now, but with political independence. The thing is, that's not possible because Scotland couldn't support the infrastructure it has now by itself. So what you want is freedom and prosperity, but for us to pick up the tab? Why should the British government and the English tax-payer allow you that? Are you stoned or something?

and if your views arent being properly listened to (on a country-wide basis) then whats the point being in a union? (The labour party and Tory scum know nothing literally about anywhere here)

You know, you are sounding increasingly like a moody teenager: 'Waaaaa! We're not being listened to! Waaaaaaa! You don't understand us!

Just grow up - you have your democratic right to elect your local government and members of Parliament, which for most of the last century and beyond has been Labour, Tory or Whig (latterly Lib Dem). In fact, Scotland has been a Labour stronghold for some time, isn't that actually what this thread is about?

Free prescriptions, and Free university thanks to 31 billion pounds a year from Westminster.

Salmond knows the facts, thats why he is saying one thing and doing another.

Cant the English have a referendum and boot Scotland out first?

You should complain to your own government for free university;

It's not free, someone has to pay for it. In your case, that someone is us.

Mr Hyena wrote:

The above and much of the other stuff you’ve said sounds like the usual SNP version of history nonsense. Whats England imposed on us? certainly not our dominant language or culture.

Laws were made after the battle of Cullloden (including the Dress Act, Disarming Act and Clan Act) all had a pretty massive effect on Scottish culture.

Hoped you’d bring up Culloden a subject often twisted and perverted into your Evil England poor plucky Scotland nationalistic nonsense.

What massive effect did these have? The vast majority of Scots were neither Highlanders or Gaelic speaking. Highland culture and language made a resurgence again in the 19th century, so it was far from destroyed by Culloden. It was the industrial revolution and Greedy Scottish landowners that brought Highland society to an end. Despite the best effort of us Lowlanders to wipe them out since 1493

I hate to see fellow Scots wallowing in that woe is me its all England fault victim mentality.

Learn something about actual Scottish History instead of distorting little bits of it because it fits your ideology. We live in a far more interesting country than the Nationalists would have you believe.

Mr Hyena wrote:
*shrugs* Because its still ours; more than the currently diluted english culture we have.

You know they named a fallacy after this sort of argument...


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Albatross wrote:
Well, of course not. The wishes of the Scottish people would be to live pretty much how they are now, but with political independence. The thing is, that's not possible because Scotland couldn't support the infrastructure it has now by itself. So what you want is freedom and prosperity, but for us to pick up the tab? Why should the British government and the English tax-payer allow you that? Are you stoned or something?

The larger issue is that a fractured UK creates a number of unique economic issues that don't need to exist, and which negatively affect not only Scots, but also the English, and every other member of your glorious Kingdom (but France is better).

In the face of material concerns, questions of independence usually just get harrumphed off the stage by an old man smoking a pipe, sitting in one of these.

Yeah, funnily enough, the bit about a Scottish Prime Minister put me in mind of the 'No True Scotsman'....

I hate to see fellow Scots wallowing in that woe is me its all England fault victim mentality.

Learn something about actual Scottish History instead of distorting little bits of it because it fits your ideology. We live in a far more interesting country than the Nationalists would have you believe.

Melting pot culture doesn't leave a strong national identity however. It may be too early to break away; but least the SNP is doing something to resurrect some of our old culture. Can't say the same for labour or the tories after what they did to us. Hate it all you like...but a lot of Scots also hate and have wanted to regain a good, strong national identity.

Just grow up - you have your democratic right to elect your local government and members of Parliament, which for most of the last century and beyond has been Labour, Tory or Whig (latterly Lib Dem). In fact, Scotland has been a Labour stronghold for some time, isn't that actually what this thread is about?

Ask why Labour didn't get in. The SNP can't just sneak in without a reason for all the votes they got. It reflects a powerful focus of the people's wishes.

Well, of course not. The wishes of the Scottish people would be to live pretty much how they are now, but with political independence. The thing is, that's not possible because Scotland couldn't support the infrastructure it has now by itself. So what you want is freedom and prosperity, but for us to pick up the tab? Why should the British government and the English tax-payer allow you that? Are you stoned or something?

So heres the problem. Why should we vote for a party who doesn't reflect anything of scottish interests; instead of the SNP? Until this question can be answered, there won't be peace with this issue. If your so concerned with what the english tax-payer pays for; then why are you seriously concerned about keeping us in the union anyway?

The only way to keep this 'union' going is to stop putting issues under the carpet and give increased powers to all devolved governments.

Melting pot culture doesn't leave a strong national identity however. It may be too early to break away; but least the SNP is doing something to resurrect some of our old culture.

You don't seem to know anything about historic scottish culture and simply seem to use "scottish national identity" and "scottish culture" interchangeably. Neither of which are materially meaningful from a governmental standpoint meaning the SNP very likely isn't doing anything to resurrect your old culture.

Ask why Labour didn't get in. The SNP can't just sneak in without a reason for all the votes they got. It reflects a powerful focus of the people's wishes.

That doesn't really translate to commonly shared policy beliefs, nor does such a mandate on that always comes with a clear line of action (such as in this case where reactionary sentiment resulted in the party coming to power).

So heres the problem. Why should we vote for a party who doesn't reflect anything of scottish interests; instead of the SNP?

Because from a material standpoint they all have your wishes in mind and as a "people" you seem to be whiny and materially greedy due to a national culture of reasonless resentment belying the fact that you aren't and never can be important on a national level?

Until this question can be answered, there won't be peace with this issue.

The answer is "your culture is bad" and "minority enclaves tend to recede and demand supplication from majority governance". The answers are all plain to see and fit within socioeconomic theory and observation, they're just stupid and make you look bad.

If your so concerned with what the english tax-payer pays for; then why are you seriously concerned about keeping us in the union anyway?

Being attached to a failed state with no ability to maintain its infrastructure or government physically on an island is gakky.

You don't seem to know anything about historic scottish culture and simply seem to use "scottish national identity" and "scottish culture" interchangeably. Neither of which are materially meaningful from a governmental standpoint meaning the SNP very likely isn't doing anything to resurrect your old culture.

They're doing much more than the tories or labour did though.

That doesn't really translate to commonly shared policy beliefs, nor does such a mandate on that always comes with a clear line of action (such as in this case where reactionary sentiment resulted in the party coming to power)

It certainly isn't a fluke

Because from a material standpoint they all have your wishes in mind and as a "people" you seem to be whiny and materially greedy due to a national culture of reasonless resentment belying the fact that you aren't and never can be important on a national level?

Our wishes in mind? since when?

Reasonless? Thats pretty hilarious. I think your just jealous of the free university tuition and prescriptions; and that the SNP is committed to continuing them

Being attached to a failed state with no ability to maintain its infrastructure or government physically on an island is gakky.

But the only reason its even like that; is because of historic reasons.

I don't understand about this obsession with Scottish 'culture'. that England is 'eroding'. Like what? Wearing kilts? Go for it. Clan blood feuds? Well, the winner ends up in the nick, but if you really have to, knock yourselves out. Eating Haggis? Sure, so long as you don't lob it over the border.


You claim that the devolved government doesn't have enough power. Alright. Get more people in England to vote for the SNP, and your party will have control of the country! Simple! What's that? The SNP only appeal to Scotsmen? Well, in that case, they'll need to come up with policies people in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland like then! Y'know, like every other party does?

The last Prime Minister was Scottish. You complain he was out of touch with Scotland. errr......so what makes you think he was more in touch with the English then? If he was out of touch with you lot, that put him in the neighouring galaxy to us! You're not the only ones with terrible politicians to put up with you know! They're ours too!


If Scotland genuinely wants to leave, let 'em go. Give all serving Scottish Armed Forces members dual nationality, but cease admitting new Scots recruits. Seal the border. Save money.

I'm okay with that. If you want independence, you can have it. However, when we use the money we save from you guys to pay for our own prescription drugs and university fees, don't be surprised when yours suddenly vanish. You'll have swapped 'em out for plenty more of that 'Scottish culture' stuff though.

Mr Hyena wrote:
Melting pot culture doesn't leave a strong national identity however.

And yet we have the United States, Australia, India, Indonesia, China, etc.

Mr Hyena wrote:
Ask why Labour didn't get in. The SNP can't just sneak in without a reason for all the votes they got. It reflects a powerful focus of the people's wishes.

No, not at all. That's the idealistic nonsense they feed you in primary school. The wish to cast a given vote doesn't necessarily have any impact on the wish to live under a given type of governance.

Mr Hyena wrote:
The only way to keep this 'union' going is to stop putting issues under the carpet and give increased powers to all devolved governments.

That's also false. You have no independent power, and can be readily ignored.


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Mr Hyena wrote:
But the only reason its even like that; is because of historic reasons.

So?

That's like arguing someone only like pizza because they are a person that likes pizza.

The last Prime Minister was Scottish. You complain he was out of touch with Scotland. errr......so what makes you think he was more in touch with the English then? If he was out of touch with you lot, that put him in the neighouring galaxy to us! You're not the only ones with terrible politicians to put up with you know! They're ours too!

That just shows how godforsakenly terrible the last government was tbh.

No, not at all. That's the idealistic nonsense they feed you in primary school. The wish to cast a given vote doesn't necessarily have any impact on the wish to live under a given type of governance.

I like how you assume theres brainwashing in scottish primary schools.

You're only now just realising this?

The fact they left us more in debt than two world wars might have been your first clue?

You're only now just realising this?

The fact they left us more in debt than two world wars might have been your first clue?

More like that was too obvious a reason.

Exactly! And we have your bloody Scottish Prime Minister to blame for that! See what happens when you give a Scotsman too much power?

I wouldn't want a scottish party in Westminster; theres no real need for that; and it should be used to reflect english concerns. Give more power to Holyrood, (and to Wales and all too) which means we won't actually need a proper scottish party in westminster as our concerns will properly be taken care of here rather than relying on Mr. I-went-to-Eton-and-I-love-the-Queen, Cameron.

Problem solved.

Mr Hyena wrote:I wouldn't want a scottish party in Westminster; theres no real need for that; and it should be used to reflect english concerns. Give more power to Holyrood, (and to Wales and all too) which means we won't actually need a proper scottish party in westminster as our concerns will properly be taken care of here rather than relying on Mr. I-went-to-Eton-and-I-love-the-Queen, Cameron.

Problem solved.

Not really. Whilst this remain a Union, you need a driving pre-eminent Government. Having 4 Governments in one Union with identical power and different governments is asking for disaster.

England has the money and power, therefore England gets it. Scotland has no economy, no money, no international importance or significance (that isn't inexorably attached to the English), no real resources, or anything in general really. Scotland alone has as much strategic significance in military or economic terms as a passing fart.

If you want to exchange a pre-eminent role on the world stage, your meal ticket for all those lovely programs you're so fond of (which would immediately vanish upon independence), and your economy for some unspecified imaginary Scottish 'culture' (a huge proportionate of which was dreamed up by literary writers with nothing better to do), and some bizare, unreasonable indoctrinated hatred of the English, be my guest. It's more money to spend on the likes of me.

Mr Hyena wrote:

The last Prime Minister was Scottish. You complain he was out of touch with Scotland. errr......so what makes you think he was more in touch with the English then? If he was out of touch with you lot, that put him in the neighouring galaxy to us! You're not the only ones with terrible politicians to put up with you know! They're ours too!

That just shows how godforsakenly terrible the last government was tbh.

No, not at all. That's the idealistic nonsense they feed you in primary school. The wish to cast a given vote doesn't necessarily have any impact on the wish to live under a given type of governance.

I like how you assume theres brainwashing in scottish primary schools.

You sound pretty damn brainwashed tbh.

You sound pretty damn brainwashed tbh.

No more brainwashed than some of the posts here.

Not really. Whilst this remain a Union, you need a driving pre-eminent Government. Having 4 Governments in one Union with identical power and different governments is asking for disaster.

But the alternative is not really that great either so whats it to be? Nobody is really happy with the way its set up.

I didn't go to Eton, but I love the Queen.

did you know in the "good old days" it was mostly the Scottish Nobility that poo'd over the scottish people/lower orders not the Brits.
Also that a Scottish king decided to unify the Monarchy under the British royal family (balding Willies predeccessors)

Also Scots are mostly decended from the Irish!

theres some cultural history!!


tbh Scotland can have independance, and Scots can vote/do/think what they like!
but if they do get it, they had best be prepared to stand on their own two feet, north sea oil wont pay for everything!

Mr Hyena wrote:

But the alternative is not really that great either so whats it to be? Nobody is really happy with the way its set up.

I dunno, tbh, I'm pretty content actually. So's most of England, Wales and Northern Ireland,. Heck, even most of Scotland doesn't want independence I would think. It's just for a hardline radicals. I have difficulty believing anyone with a rational educated opinion (no offence intended), would ever dream of wanting to take Scotland independent. It really has everything to lose and virtually nothing to gain.

Ketara wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

But the alternative is not really that great either so whats it to be? Nobody is really happy with the way its set up.

I dunno, tbh, I'm pretty content actually. So's most of England, Wales and Northern Ireland,. Heck, even most of Scotland doesn't want independence I would think. It's just for a hardline radicals. I have difficulty believing anyone with a rational educated opinion (no offence intended), would ever dream of wanting to take Scotland independent. It really has everything to lose and virtually nothing to gain.

The only reason I personally want independence is because of the refusal to give Holyrood proper powers to manage Scotland properly. If it wasn't for that; I'd be content enough to stay in the union personally. (even if I have no love for it personally) If Westminster isn't interested in scottish concerns then let us fix things ourselves. Independence is the only other option as the english would never vote in a scottish party (tbh which is understandable)

If it was just hardline radicals then the SNP wouldnt have stormed to victory. Theres different ways to gain independence; even if it isn't 'true' independence. I think this is what people (at least myself) are hoping for.

Mr Hyena wrote:

You sound pretty damn brainwashed tbh.

No more brainwashed than some of the posts here.

Not really. Whilst this remain a Union, you need a driving pre-eminent Government. Having 4 Governments in one Union with identical power and different governments is asking for disaster.

But the alternative is not really that great either so whats it to be? Nobody is really happy with the way its set up.

The alternative seems to be working out just fine. This is the part where you seem powerfully brainwashed and misidentify globally common governmental issues and practices with governance that is out of touch with your particular ethnic group.

Mr Hyena wrote:The only reason I personally want independence is because of the refusal to give Holyrood proper powers to manage Scotland properly. If it wasn't for that; I'd be content enough to stay in the union personally. (even if I have no love for it personally) If Westminster isn't interested in scottish concerns then let us fix things ourselves. Independence is the only other option as the english would never vote in a scottish party (tbh which is understandable)

OK, welcome to magicland - Scotland now has all the powers it wants to manage itself "properly"; what powers would it have that it does not have already and what would it do with them and how would it pay for what it wants to do?

How does this "return" Scotland to the tartan wearing, haggis and shortbread eating powerhouse of world culture and industry?

Mr Hyena wrote:

If it was just hardline radicals then the SNP wouldnt have stormed to victory.

I don't know about your experience, but just about everyone I know votes tactically. In other words, they vote SNP, because they reckon they'll get the best deal for them personally, and wring as many concessions as they can out of Britain, and they're better than the alternative options.

I serverely, severely doubt the majority of Scotland is champing at the bit, demanding independence. The lack of....well, massive rallies, large petitions submitted to Westminster weekly, protestors outside No. 11 or even terrorism against the British government by the no doubt subjugated populace and ill trodden populace make me think most of Scotland is pretty content with the status quo. Like most of Britain.

I voted Tory last election. Not because I liked them, but because I wanted Labour out.

Mr Hyena wrote:
I like how you assume theres brainwashing in scottish primary schools.

Did I say something about brainwashing?

That doesn't sound like something I would say.

No, had you actually bothered reading my post from a neutral stance you would have realized that I was making a comment on the necessary implications of voting. This is amusing given that you have horribly misconstrued a comment on what necessity is by drawing unnecessary conclusions from the statement in question.

If your purpose is to argue for Scottish independence, then you probably shouldn't start by making yourself appear as though you cannot be trusted to properly use your native language.

dogma wrote:If your purpose is to argue for Scottish independence, then you probably shouldn't start by making yourself appear as though you cannot be trusted to properly use your native language.

But English is only the language forced upon him by the brutal English dictators and crushers of all things Scottish... He is obviously playing his part in the noble and just rebellion against his English overlords