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Platuan4th wrote:

chyron wrote:Sex with not even nominal connection to reproduction?

Yes, because that's why teens and college kids are having the sex.

Not because it's, y'know, FUN or an expression of emotional attachment.

This made me think, could the inquisition or whoever see it as a Nurgle related act? This reminded me about our college std rate, 1 in 3. The more people do it, the more it gets passed around.

chyron wrote:Anyway i can't imagine something like "gay pride" event on Imperial worlds without some prometheum-hot reaction from Ecclesiarchy.

That might have more to do with excessive self-expression, something the Ecclesiarchy would frown on no matter your sexual inclination.

And iirc in fluff (in all cases i remember) homosexual orientation was something not shown openly for reasons i think obvious.

Public displays of affection, straight or otherwise, are hardly going to be shown openly in any Imperial Guard regiment. Besides, the authors in this case seem to be going for the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" method of establishing relationships within any given regiment.

Even Tona Criid and (what's-his-name?) Criid, a couple who became married if I recall Guants Ghosts correctly, didn't show unproffessional affection for one another in public.

If the Imperium doesn't outlaw it, or make it a sort of social no-no, then there is no need for something like a Gay Pride parade. The social environment recognizes it as a relationship between consenting adults, and of no greater consequence than a heterosexual relationship between consenting adults.

There's no need to parade it about or revel in its expression, as there's no repression or social backlash against it (at least so far presented as the norm in most hive-worlds).

I seem to remember that there was an example of this in one of the Last Chancer novels as well given from Kage's perspective of course. If I recall correctly, it wasn't exactly his cup of tea but nor was it specifically forbidden/prohibited/ect.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Public displays of affection, straight or otherwise, are hardly going to be shown openly in any Imperial Guard regiment. Besides, the authors in this case seem to be going for the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" method of establishing relationships within any given regiment.

The IG policy is probably to publicly frown on such relationships, but privately ignore them. Relationships can be good for people, but can also be the source of lots of problems. Grifon and Magot will get a wink and a nudge so long as their relationship remains a healthy one. But if one of them dies, or if there's a breakup, then things could get very ugly very fast. And it's going to be the responsibility of the officers to keep a handle on the resulting mess.

I don't know about the first three, but I'm pretty sure the Imperium's rule with transsexuals is WYSIWYG.

Problem: Being gayetc. should be heresy in the empire: that means you cant create more tiny-imperial-guard-in-education.

Eumerin wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Public displays of affection, straight or otherwise, are hardly going to be shown openly in any Imperial Guard regiment. Besides, the authors in this case seem to be going for the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" method of establishing relationships within any given regiment.

The IG policy is probably to publicly frown on such relationships, but privately ignore them. Relationships can be good for people, but can also be the source of lots of problems. Grifon and Magot will get a wink and a nudge so long as their relationship remains a healthy one. But if one of them dies, or if there's a breakup, then things could get very ugly very fast. And it's going to be the responsibility of the officers to keep a handle on the resulting mess.

Not quite related, but in the Caiphas Cain novels it was alluded that his position in the mixed sex regiment meant he ended up running something akin to a nursery as the newborns in the regiment fell under his duty of upholding the regiments health and wellbeing, or at least Amberly Veil alledged this anyway.

DickBandit wrote:I don't know about the first three, but I'm pretty sure the Imperium's rule with transsexuals is WYSIWYG.

You beauty.

thenoobbomb wrote:Problem: Being gayetc. should be heresy in the empire: that means you cant create more tiny-imperial-guard-in-education.

Problem: This has already been addressed in the thread. Twice I think.

Luco wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

chyron wrote:Sex with not even nominal connection to reproduction?

Yes, because that's why teens and college kids are having the sex.

Not because it's, y'know, FUN or an expression of emotional attachment.

This made me think, could the inquisition or whoever see it as a Nurgle related act? This reminded me about our college std rate, 1 in 3. The more people do it, the more it gets passed around.

Highly unlikely. Unless they specifically knew that they were infected and they were having sex for the sole purpose of passing it, they were probably just a victim.

And besides, they could get more people sick with heterosexual sex than they could with homosexual sex, as the majority of the population is pretty much always going to be heterosexual. The many genes which control sexuality, along with the societal factors, ensure this-- most of the genes which are identified as promoting homosexuality (although having them does not mean that you will be homosexual, it's an extremely complex interaction of genes because of the complex nature of the subject, nevermind upbringing and other environmental factors) tend to be recessive, and those that do go homosexual without providing their genepool for children (not all homosexuals do this-- for example, the men who find out they're homosexual after being married to a woman for years, as I said, sexuality is a complicated subject. And this doesn't account for the technology we will have a few years in the future-- the technology is being refined and perfected even now-- to create a means through which lesbians might parent a child with eachothers' genetics) don't contribute to the gene pool.

Yeah, this is not as easy a subject as some people make it out to be.

There's a male gay couple in Ravenor. It's a throwaway one sentence line but there ya go.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's a male gay couple in Ravenor. It's a throwaway one sentence line but there ya go.

Citation please.

I don't have it in front of me but it's in the first book when Ravenor is using his witch-sight to snoop on the neighborhood. One of the dozens of scenes he intrudes upon is two guys described as lovers. He doesn't blink an astraly projected eye implying this is not that strange.

Black Library actually has a policy of trying not to have sexuality in any form in its books (especially with the new talent) but Abnett is Abnett and always tries to push the boundries of what BL should be. He was the first to heavily imply rape-murder in a book and then confirmed it 3 years later when BL knows this isn't a guy they need to censor.

Mitchel is similar in that regard.

As many times LGBT has been mentioned in the Ravenor, Commissar Cain, and other 40k novels I got the impression that because of all the toubles that the IOM has to deal with certain issues from our times doesn't matter squat anymore. People who are pskers and mutants have more to worry about than homosexuals...

tigonesskay wrote:As many times LGBT has been mentioned in the Ravenor, Commissar Cain, and other 40k novels I got the impression that because of all the toubles that the IOM has to deal with certain issues from our times doesn't matter squat anymore. People who are pskers and mutants have more to worry about than homosexuals...

Now that's just discrimiating. Who says you can't be all three?

I think people in the imperium may NOT use condoms. Cus that would be just for pleasure. Pleasure=Slaanesh-y=Slaanesh=Chaos=Turning Chaos =heretic. Burn the heretics!

Half the population prolly has no idea what it is\was

thenoobbomb wrote:I think people in the imperium may NOT use condoms. Cus that would be just for pleasure. Pleasure=Slaanesh-y=Slaanesh=Chaos=Turning Chaos =heretic. Burn the heretics!

The Imperial Guard probably provides birth control for its mixed gender regiments to prevent pregnancy which reduces combat effectiveness.

Like everyone has said before, it would depend mostly on the world in question, but it doesn't seem like the greater Imperium cares.

I don't specifically remember the part it happened in Ravenor, but its been a while since I read all of them. I doubt I paid much attention in the first place. I think they have more important things to worry about than what gender some of their population is attracted to, that and its way easier to hate xenos.

thenoobbomb wrote:I think people in the imperium may NOT use condoms. Cus that would be just for pleasure. Pleasure=Slaanesh-y=Slaanesh=Chaos=Turning Chaos =heretic. Burn the heretics!

I doubt the Imperium at large knows much about Slaanesh - and may not even be overly familiar with the name. The Imperium loves to keep its secrets, after all, and letting news circulate that there's a "god of pleasure" is only going to make things worse.

The only large pan-Imperium group that actually cares about whether or not you're just having sex for pleasure is probably the Redemptionists, who are what you get when you combine "Everything fun is bad for you!" and "Kill it with fire!". Even devout Imperial subjects consider them to be dangerously unhinged religious fanatics.

There are plenty of people who do things "just for pleasure" in the Imperium. That's the entire reason amasec exists, or theatre, or museums, or, hell, the arts in general and public/private consumption thereof.

The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor. This is why Eisenhorn often laughs (in his Inquisitorial way) on the various hive-nobles he encounters who only "play" at being heretics. They're not real heretics, they're just bored nobles into sex-games and "fuzzy pict-recorded fake snuff films". These sorts of "false heresies" don't really draw the attention of Slaanesh, because they're too mundane, too tame, too... normal for one such as Slaanesh to be interested. There's no abject depravity involved, or taboo-violating actions, or otherwise just plain weird gak going on to interest a Ruinous Power.

ETA: Going back to a comment earlier in the thread, I believe that any such laws against LGBT citizens is going to be reserved to individual planets, controlled by their Planetary Governor, rather than mandated by the Imperial Creed.

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Guard probably provides birth control for its mixed gender regiments to prevent pregnancy which reduces combat effectiveness.

Even their same gender regiments as was the case in Fifteen Hours, but that drop of supplies could have just as well been an accident.

Psienesis wrote:The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor.

Wrong. See: the entirety of the Eldar race at the fall.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's a male gay couple in Ravenor. It's a throwaway one sentence line but there ya go.

Citation please.

Ravenor Omnibus, page 634, from Ravenor Rogue, on the planet Tancred, Ravenor is doing a mind-scan of the entire city. Abnett writes:

On a roof terrace, a young man plays a viol in the sun while his lover, another young man, sits in the shade of an awning and learns lines for his part in a play.

The next sentence is about a woman in another part of that same building, and is totally unrelated, and Ravenor makes no further comment or moral judgements about the young men mentioned above.

ph34r wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor.

Wrong. See: the entirety of the Eldar race at the fall.

Which WERE excessive by Eldar standards, they were just too stuck in revelry to realize it.

Homosexuality isn't itself excessive. Nor is having sex for pleasure.

Melissia wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor.

Wrong. See: the entirety of the Eldar race at the fall.

Which WERE excessive by Eldar standards, they were just too stuck in revelry to realize it.

No. "Eldar standards" went down the drain along with them.

Your logic is like saying that everyone in modern society is being excessive. By 13th century standards.

(aka, your logic is Terrible (tm))

Not all Eldar were participating in those blood sacrifices, orgies, etc. They may not even have been the majority, although only the minority actually objected enough to bother to escape.

However, that wasn't my position, I was just pointing out that your own objections to it are a bit nonsensical.

Excess is that which is defined by Slaanesh itself. Think about it in terms of drug resistance-- a person uses a recreational drug, and becomes resistant to its effects. So they have to use more and more and more of the drug to get the same high. That's the excess part, and that's how Slaanesh worshippers (and many nobles) also feel about more physical pleasures in 40k.

A couple simply making love to eachother, not trying to reach new heights of pleasure but merely expressing their love for eachother in a physicla manner, isn't going to feed Slaanesh unless they're Eldar due to their unique connection with Slaanesh.

So when Humans are doing it they don't feed Slaanesh, even if relationship is homo or lesbo.

Eldar are feeding him while just doing it.

Then why don't Slaanesh starve to death?

Brother Coa wrote:So when Humans are doing it they don't feed Slaanesh, even if relationship is homo or lesbo.

Eldar are feeding him while just doing it.

Then why don't Slaanesh starve to death?

Because so many people do push it to excess. And it's not just sex that does it. Sex is just the most obvious and titilating thing, so it's what draws the majority of attention. But anyone who feeds their desires to excess is feeding Slaanesh.

Consider Noise Marines. Noise Marines are the marine followers of Slaanesh. Within the fluff, they're not particularly known for their interest in sex despite the fact that they follow Slaanesh. Instead, their downfall is associated with their need to hear more and more exotic sounds. Slaanesh can feed off of certain sexual habits. Slaanesh can also feed off of drug addicts. Slaanesh can feed off of obsessive basement-dwelling hobbyists. Given the chance, people tend toward excess - and when they do, Slaanesh benefits.

Slaanesh has no problem with it