Dashofpepper's Necrons @Little Wars: Game One

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**tiekwando**

If the warriors come on from reserve then they are moving, as such they cannot move after teleporting through the monolith.

As to destroyers, yah that is pretty much what happens, usually you try to bring a critical mass so that whatever they can see is destroyed, or at least shaken

. Of course with the world being mechanized nearly all armies can move and shoot heavy weapons that have the same range as the destroyers. The key is to try to minimize those shots.

**Mannahnin**

Yup. With Destroyers you peek them out around the corner, using the Wall-of-Monolith to limit what they can see and what can see them, so you minimize or eliminate return fire while still hitting the units on the edges of your opponent's "formation". That way they're still shooting even early game, rather than just hiding like the Wraiths. Either way it's a tricky army to use, but if your opponent doesn't have the mobility to easily outflank it, it can be surprisingly tough to beat.

Getting to the warriors isn't nearly as easy as some people think, either, since they start the game in Reserve, and when they arrive can come in anywhere along the long table edge. With the Monolith formation taking up the center of the table, or sealing off one corner/side, generally one end of that long table edge is mostly inaccessible to your opponent.

I ran into this (the Destroyer/Immortal variant, not Wraithwing) at last year's Ard Boys Final in PA, and had a very tight game. After my land raider with Abby and terminators got immobilied on turn 1 I was actaully playing from behind, and won in part because my opponent took the risk of assaulting Abbaddon with the Deceiver for bonus points; and Abby killed him.

**augustus5**

Pyriel- wrote:More QQing over people who dare bring a min/max list to a tournament...

List building will never make a tournament winner. List building is only a small part of winning a game. The reason for this is because there are hard counters for almost any build. The most successful tournament players win because they know their army, they know the other armies, and they consistently make good decisions when reacting to an opponent.

You can keep QQing over Dash's list but you are missing the point that he wins games because he plays a more focused game than most of his opponents.

**Orock**

Heffling wrote:Here are the mistakes I made in my game against Dashofpepper:

1) I became too fixated on the fact that his wraiths could charge 18" and didn't think about the fact that they would either have to teleport through the monolith or move over the monoliths to assault.

Knowing that Dash moved up first turn, I should have gone for the 13-14" range while my warboss assaulted a monolith. This would have forced him to either take hits on his monoliths from the kans and warboss, or to teleport through the liths to assault my kans. Either way, the outcome would have been better on Turn 2.

2) I set one of my outflanking Deffkoptas on the table, then went to set down the other two on the opposite side but forgot to move the first. Originally, he was intended to go to the midline of his warriors unit.

I didn't realize I had forgotten to move him until midway through shooting, when I was already done softening up his warriors. Now he had no charge and a buncha P.O.'d warriors ready to shoot him.

3) I should have kept my second mob of boys (the one with the KFF) in range to assault his wraiths when they went after my first mob.

4) I expected his deceiver to crush my killa kans. Instead, he rolled a 1 and a 2 for the pen results, and was stuck in combat, so I couldn't shoot down the deceiver. The Deceiver is very vulnerable to lootas when compared to just about anything else in the game that could hurt it.

5) I took 12 fearless wounds on a squad of 10 boys and a nob in the multi-combat. Had I allocated 2 to the nob, I would have lost the entire unit. However, I only allocated 1. In hindsight, I still think I made the right call, as statistically I should have passed two saves instead of none.

6) I should have moved and run the lootas on Turn 1. This would have opened up more of his backfield and made his warrior deployment trickier. I knew they couldn't hurt the monoliths, but ended up letting them sit where they were.

I would like to request that those that dislike Dashofpepper, please take your comments elsewhere. He's my friend, and he's a fun opponent for me to play against. He wrote this battle report at my request to help me analyze the game and learn from my mistakes, as I want to be a better player. I don't appreciate a game I'm involved in turning into a drama fest because a third party came into the thread to attack my opponent. It's not cool at all.

No offense, but this isnt really what you did wrong. You let a power list play its game is your only mistake. His list depends on hiding the squishy stuff that phases him out, in this case warriors, while having super units on the board to kill off the biggest threat to said squishies. In this case reserving every thing you had would be the way to go, as you would have late game threats left to harass his warriors and force the phase out. If he isnt going to let you pound his warriors, you shouldnt have to take it in the face from 3 monoliths and the deciever. If it were me I would have moved the regular boys AND lootas up behind the warriors, and even charged with the lootas. Sure they dont shoot, but there gonna win assault. Im not sure if he can teleport a unit completely wiped out, but even if he could it would still be your best bet, then next turn you can static fire your lootas, away from his nasties. Have the kanz koptas and warboss all go against his wraiths. Again this is hard against a good opponent, and im not saying this would have given you the win, but a better chance overall im thinking. Especially since he went first and would have to declare if the warriors were porting or walking on. He would have said walking, and when he saw that you were reserving everything it would have been too late, at least a few things would have got to them before the port.

Something you may want to consider though is people are suspicious when friends arrive late to tourneys especially when they then have no choice but to play each other, and then one plaer even facing certain defeat forfiets all points to other said friend. It smells like a scam for a good placement down the line. Not accusing, just saying if dash got bad sportsmanship afterward it might stem from people thinking back about this suspicious turn out.

**Mannahnin**

augustus5 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:I would contest the "many". Maybe one or two. The folks who decry min-maxed lists and the people who decry those people for doing so are climbing onto rather tired hobby horses IMHO.

Maybe one or two in this thread, but there are five Alamo threads as well as this necron thread, and a YDMC thread relating to the Alamo. Then there are threads about the Alamo situation on other sites as well. Put together there are more than one or two that whine about seeing a min/max list in a tourney.

Bear in mind that in many cases it's the same couple of guys posting in several places who just cannot get over it. I concede that one or two is probably an underestimate, but I think most of us are past this particular rift and should be jaded and callous enough from prior battles on the subject to respond without getting passionate or rude about it. Different folks like different "levels of cheese", and we should all respect each other's preferences. That being said, you can never make a science of judging "cheese"; it's too subjective, and even among players who like a similar "level", there are always disagreements. So we shouldn't take it too seriously.

augustus5 wrote:Save it for game night at the FLGS. At a tourney be prepared to see these lists. If that's not your cup of tea you're probably not going to ever enjoy the tournament scene.

I will agree with you but will even go one step further. Even at your FLGS, you (the editorial "you", of course, not you specifically augustus5) should be prepared to be flexible, and recognize that a given new list your buddy busts out one week may not be "cheese", even if it hands out a beat down. It might just have taken someone by surprise. Or he may not consider "cheesy unit x" to be cheesy.

**augustus5**

Mannahnin wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Save it for game night at the FLGS. At a tourney be prepared to see these lists. If that's not your cup of tea you're probably not going to ever enjoy the tournament scene.

I will agree with you but will even go one step further. Even at your FLGS, you (the editorial "you", of course, not you specifically augustus5) should be prepared to be flexible, and recognize that a given new list your buddy busts out one week may not be "cheese", even if it hands out a beat down. It might just have taken someone by surprise. Or he may not consider "cheesy unit x" to be cheesy.

I agree. Honestly, I don't really agree with the notion that a list can be called "cheese."

I understand that many people who love this hobby do not enjoy playing competitively and they are welcome to feeling that way, just as competitive players should be welcome to enjoy playing competitively. Why is it that only competitive players have negative connotations associated with themselves or their lists? We hear all to often cries of calling out somebody as a WAAC player with a cheese list. Why are so many non-competitive players so quick to name-call? I can't think of any negative connotations associated with somebody using a fluff list. If anything, fluffy lists are looked at in a more positive light.

So it seems that non-competitive players like to jump on competitive players but the opposite doesn't happen very often.

**Mannahnin**

augustus5 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Save it for game night at the FLGS. At a tourney be prepared to see these lists. If that's not your cup of tea you're probably not going to ever enjoy the tournament scene.

I will agree with you but will even go one step further. Even at your FLGS, you (the editorial "you", of course, not you specifically augustus5) should be prepared to be flexible, and recognize that a given new list your buddy busts out one week may not be "cheese", even if it hands out a beat down. It might just have taken someone by surprise. Or he may not consider "cheesy unit x" to be cheesy.

I agree. Honestly, I don't really agree with the notion that a list can be called "cheese."

I understand that many people who love this hobby do not enjoy playing competitively and they are welcome to feeling that way, just as competitive players should be welcome to enjoy playing competitively.

Eh. I think I have to disagree again. I think almost everyone plays "competitively"; the variation is mostly in how competitive they want to be. How much work they want to put into crunching the numbers. How much money and time they want to put into building and painting a dozen razorbacks (or similar). How much they value having the best possible list as opposed to having a variety of units which aren't necessarily the most efficient possible setup but create more visual and tactical variety on the table.

augustus5 wrote: Why is it that only competitive players have negative connotations associated with themselves or their lists?

Simple answer? They don't. It may look more that way to you given that your preference is to the more competitive end. Or you may not be reading sites like YTTH more devoted to that style of play. Stelek, as an example, when he was on this site frequently referred to any list which didn't meet his criteria for competitiveness as "garbage" or worse. The last time I checked out his blog that was still a pretty common way for posters where to talk about lists they regard as inefficient or uncompetitive. Less-competitive players are sometimes called "scrubs", "baby kittens", "noobs", or worse. I think you mostly see LESS of that because IME there are just more casual (whom IME are usually still competitive; just not as much so as a Stelek, or any top tournament player for that matter, including all the nice ones).

augustus5 wrote:[We hear all to often cries of calling out somebody as a WAAC player with a cheese list. Why are so many non-competitive players so quick to name-call? I can't think of any negative connotations associated with somebody using a fluff list. If anything, fluffy lists are looked at in a more positive light.

I think it's mostly a question of numbers, like I said above. If 80% of gamers are of the more casual variety, and 20% are of the "I'll make the hardest list I can come up with and really focus on learning the game well and winning as much as I can" variety, than if 10% are jerks or just run afoul of the tendency to talk like a jerk online, then you get 8 guys talking trash about how they hate "WAAC gamers" and "cheesy armies", and only 2 talking about how they hate "crappy weak armies" and "bad players".

IME in real life most of the really competitive guys are still nice people. There are some jerks, though. Same with the less-competitive sorts.

**tiekwando**

Well side note, all of these reports really makes me want to play dash twice in a row. First to figure out the exact rules on a bunch of different things, and second to correct the mistakes I made in the first and see how I come out lol. Even though if he is going to drink captain I am going to have to bring sailor jerry to show him good spiced rum.

**purplefood**

A very well written Battle report.
Shame about that snafu with the pictures in the middle but go figure...
Would like to see more, it's a shame Dash got semi-banned...

**Lycaeus Wrex**

Awww man, even with Dash posting somewhere else drama seems to enter every thread that has his name attached to it.

For what its worth; good battle report.

L. Wrex

**Kilkrazy**

Could a Tau list with nine Broadsides could do well against the list with three Monoliths?

**woodbok**

The monoliths would die, yes. but then the wraiths would eat you up.

**augustus5**

Nine broadsides would put some hurt on the three monoliths. It's too late for me to consider doing all the math but each squad of three should hit twice. 50% to glance, 33% chance to pen. AP1 so plus on the damage chart. Nine broadsides is probably one of the scarier things a three monolith list looks at. Chances are even better if you get some markerlight hits first.

If you get rid of the cover before the wraiths can charge you pretty much win the game, as they shouldn't be hard to take down with massed small arms fire.

**woodbok**

although if I was against 9 broadsides, I'd deep strike the lith's.

**augustus5**

My first thought was to advise that a wise necron player would deepstrike the monoliths into the Tau lines when faced with nine broadsides. The problem then is that you're giving the Tau a couple turns to shoot at your wraiths which don't have their mobile cover any more. The whole point of Dash's wraithwing list is hiding nine wraiths in the middle of three monoliths and advancing up the field. You then get into having to reserve everything and come in piecemeal, which can really backfire with some poor reserve rolls.

But three monoliths deepstiking into somebody's lines is a scary thought.

**tiekwando**

augustus5 wrote:My first thought was to advise that a wise necron player would deepstrike the monoliths into the Tau lines when faced with nine broadsides. The problem then is that you're giving the Tau a couple turns to shoot at your wraiths which don't have their mobile cover any more. The whole point of Dash's wraithwing list is hiding nine wraiths in the middle of three monoliths and advancing up the field. You then get into having to reserve everything and come in piecemeal, which can really backfire with some poor reserve rolls.

But three monoliths deepstiking into somebody's lines is a scary thought.

It then ends up being about what sort of terrain you have on the table. If you have something that can block los to your wraiths then deepstriking is the way to go. Wraiths can get up to 32" charge range (18" teleport, 2" placement, 12" movement, 6" charge) or on the turn the monolith deepstrikes up to 26 (18" teleport, 2" placement, 6" charge) so can be relatively in the backfield and still do some damage (not including the monolith base which can add a lot of distance).

The other thing to consider is that against a tau army one of the necrons biggest weaknesses is not exposed, mainly that tau will actually have a hard time sweeping crons in assault! I thought I had more tactical genius (aka bs) to say, but forgot all of it... oh well

**Kilkrazy**

We seem to be saying that Tau are weaker than Necrons.

**Mannahnin**

I think both can be run in such a way as to win most of the time, but it requires work and skill and there's only a couple of ways to do it. With Necrons, you pretty much MUST use multiple monoliths as very-hard-to-kill LOS-and-movenent-blockers. With Tau you pretty much MUST use layered units of Kroot and Flat out-moving Pirhanas as movement interdictors for enemy assault vehicles.

**DarknessEternal**

Kilkrazy wrote:We seem to be saying that Tau are weaker than Necrons.

Tau are better than Necrons, in general. They are worse than Necrons when fighting Necrons.

**Pyriel-**

Wonder how much valid various monolith-wall necron builds will be with their new codex.

**Heffling**

Orock wrote:No offense, but this isnt really what you did wrong. You let a power list play its game is your only mistake. His list depends on hiding the squishy stuff that phases him out, in this case warriors, while having super units on the board to kill off the biggest threat to said squishies. In this case reserving every thing you had would be the way to go, as you would have late game threats left to harass his warriors and force the phase out. If he isnt going to let you pound his warriors, you shouldnt have to take it in the face from 3 monoliths and the deciever. If it were me I would have moved the regular boys AND lootas up behind the warriors, and even charged with the lootas. Sure they dont shoot, but there gonna win assault. Im not sure if he can teleport a unit completely wiped out, but even if he could it would still be your best bet, then next turn you can static fire your lootas, away from his nasties. Have the kanz koptas and warboss all go against his wraiths. Again this is hard against a good opponent, and im not saying this would have given you the win, but a better chance overall im thinking. Especially since he went first and would have to declare if the warriors were porting or walking on. He would have said walking, and when he saw that you were reserving everything it would have been too late, at least a few things would have got to them before the port.

Something you may want to consider though is people are suspicious when friends arrive late to tourneys especially when they then have no choice but to play each other, and then one plaer even facing certain defeat forfiets all points to other said friend. It smells like a scam for a good placement down the line. Not accusing, just saying if dash got bad sportsmanship afterward it might stem from people thinking back about this suspicious turn out.

I have to disagree with the phase out. I'm not playing a highly mobile, long range army such as DE, and his Phase Out number is 9, meaning I'd have to kill a wraith or his lord in addition to all the warriors. If I had reserved everything, I would never have been able to put a significant dent in his warriors in addition to letting myself get destroyed piecemeal. 24" range on Kans, 18" range on shootas, etc, means we'd start 48" apart and I'd have to walk/run across. With his wraiths/lord moving 12" (18 w/ assault), he'd have easily been able to intercept me.

His wraiths ignore terrain and friendly models such as his monoliths. My warboss and boys don't. A full reserve against his army with mine is a bad idea.

I didn't forfeit to give Dash full points. He already had full points from his objectives. I'm thankful that Little Wars was willing to put up with us being late and let us play in the tournament. Dash doesn't need me to throw a game for him to come in 1st or 2nd place at Little Wars, he's already done this several times.