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As reguards to gameplay.
I think forcing a low tec WWI trenchwarfare atrition into a future warfare, is just wrong.As this simply stopped when tanks and aircraft showed up.
I always think of the 4fs for modern warfare.
Find them.
Fix them with supressive fire.
Flank them,
Finish them in close assault.
Mobility, firepower and close assault ability should be EQUALY important in the game IMO.
40k is such a massive abstrtaction to allow the rule of cool to be king.
Yzz.
The 'ready' action allows the unit to set up heavier weapons -get them ready to fire.Or to stow thier gear tightly to move stealthily , or take up firing/observation positions.
In short its a catch all term for units combat actions that are not moving or attacking.
Yup I cant spell moral(e) , it is a rough draught .
As reguard scaling up, my rules are focused on unit interaction.What a unit represents can be used to scale the game apropriatley.
A single model for skirmish games.
A squad for large skirmish games.
A platoon for battle games
A company for massive battles.
For generic units titles I prefer a rarety classification as this allows simple themeing for army composition.
HQ, compulsory unit.
For each HQ you may have 3 support units and 4 common units.
For every 2 common units you can select one specialist unit.
For every 2 specialist units you can select one restricted unit.
ok so im working on a game idea myself, i have the idea behind it down but im only on the brainstorming part, im trying to blend axis and allies simplicity in turn structure and how attacking works, while using the ideas of movement and armor/cover saves of WH40k.
there are four factions, each with general positives and negatives but still open enough so that people can design their own armies within the factions. the main fights will take place at small scale city fighting (15 v 15 with 1-2 vehicles a side)
the rebels (strong infantry, weak vehicles), the empire defense force (average at everything), the ancients (powerful but costly), the newborn (weak infantry, strong vehicles)
note: all factions can be used as human or aliens, just depends on if you can make a back story for them
the units will be very general so that people can use what ever minitures they can
also thinking of moral for the whole army? don't know how to make it work but its all brain storming right now
DaemonJellybaby wrote:Smacks, how can a new game scatter templates without a scatter dice?
cos that's GW copyright
Well, if you use a d12, rather than a d6, you can use 'clock face' directions. "That scatters to 5 o'clock!".
The other advantage of a larger die like d10 or d12 is that you'll get a lot greater range of variability than d6 (so there's more distinction between armor saves, etc.), as well as avoiding a lot of the look and feel of GW's games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another option for designing a game would be to use a good "points based" RPG system (HERO comes to mind). HERO has detailed enough rules to allow it to be played as a tactical battle game. You could then use the points system to design all of the units. The advantage here would be that if a player wanted to introduce some new unit (or use models from another game), the underlying points structure would be right there in the open to design it.
Something like this would be a lot of initial work, but it would be relatively simple to add new units. Admittedly, HERO might be TOO detailed, but it seems a lot easier to pare down complexity than add complexity without screwing up game balance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/01 04:23:12
If you want a good skirmish game for 28mm, there are loads currently available.
StargruntII, Fast and Dirty, No limits ,ChainReactionIII, Infinity etc.
You can find links to the free to download ones at freewargamesrules.
I assume we are talking about developing a similar sized game to the current 40k game size.Because quite franky sci fi games at this size are few and far between .
And rules wise 40k is utterly overcomplicated compared to the simplistic gameplay it offers.
And that the game play would be focused on UNIT interaction.
With characters confering special abilities to units.
Why are people concerned about manufacturing new minatures?
Are there not enough minature manufactureres currently available?
If you are NOT using GW rules you, can still use your curent scifi minature colection to play surley?
^It depends on whether the rule set comes with its own backstory. I think that whay people are aiming for is a new universe with a new ruleset and cheaper models from that universe to boot. But they want a similar feel and scale to 40k, and possiby a similarly dark background or feeling to the game. They don't just want a rule set, they want the whole experience.
Over the past year or so I've been working on rules for a "Zombie Apocalypse" game.
Various scenrios ranging from " Rescue" and "escape" skirmish games to more "siege" based battles ( think Battle of Yonkers WWZ)..
Still trying to iron everything out..but making progress.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
Hi all.
I am ok with other more artisticaly gifted folks making up the background and creating the game universe.
However, I belive its important to establish EXACTLY what type of gameplay were are aiming for.
The most intuitive rule sets are simulations of well known events.
Blood Bowl, Epic , Man O War,BFG, Dark Future , in fact ALL GW specialist games have a very strong simulationist gameplay.
If Rick Priestly refers to 40k game mechanics as '..old fashioned and clunky..' then I agree, we should use more modern ones.
So are we happy with the same scale and scope of the current 40k game play?
As the 40k universe is populated by combat units closest in similarity to modern units, (NOT Ancient or Napoleonic,) do you think a modern warfare simulation would be the best fit ?
I wouldn't mind seeing a game that plays more like a RTS game on the tabletop more than the classic 6-turn GW game.
I would love to see a game more about maneuvering, quick turns and gathering resources and other 'board game' type mechanics than just a war game shootem out. Generating units on the fly based upon the situation.
I could see rules for buildings and resources and such. You win a game by cutting off resources and such not just killing crap and sitting on a nickel.
Not sure how best to handle it, but I could see some abstractions and movement trays added to help speed of movement.
Just ideas but I kinda would like to see some alternatives to the GW wargame design. I am not sure how really changing the model drastically would work but worth a shot discussion.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
^ All of that is handled much better by a boardgame,
As for scale I think around 40kish in the amount of units/models is about what the community wants. Whether they want their rules more complicated or streamlined should also be decided.
Do you want an average game to be quicker?
Do you want a more realistic shooting/cover/armour system?
Do you want a game that is heavy on CC?
Do you want a game that is mech heavy, infantry heavy, both?
Do you want a game that is true line of sight or abstracted?
All of these things and more should be decided upon. Though we could also have a rules competition on Dakka if Yak would be in agreement.
Another option is to put all of these decisions "out to tender" so to speak. Describe what you want, say true line of sight/abstracted LOS for shooting and then just let people put up their own rule mechanics and have someone select a short list/the one that will be used.
Lanrak wrote:As the 40k universe is populated by combat units closest in similarity to modern units, (NOT Ancient or Napoleonic,) do you think a modern warfare simulation would be the best fit ?
Not so sure if modern/contemporary warfare is the way to go. Several issues involved, from copyright to political. While I'd love to play somali technicals blazing through the streets of Mogadishu or spanish BMRs fending off taliban ambushers on the road to Herat, I'd rather play it safe and sci-fi for the time being.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Some things to keep in mind -
I think GW really has it right with their armor saves. Many people who comment on rules say it doesnt make sense that you roll for saves after rolling to wound, but I feel it is psychologically important for the defender to have the last say.
Also: D6 vs D10 vs DXX: D6's are good because they are ubiquitous and small. You can reasonably easily pick up a handful of 30 dice to roll (hence some 40k units get ludicrous amounts of attacks in combat). But its much harder for someone to acquire a set of 30 D20's, let alone attempt to roll them all at the same time. Higher sided dice encourage lower model count games.
Made some rules up, put them in a spoiler to stop this thread from getting clogged up. I present to you... DeadZone!
Spoiler:
Rules for DeadZone. A minature game set in the far future. Were humans fight for their emperor. Were space orcs wage battles to put space into never ending war. Were the Eldan fight for their very survival, and their dark cousins torture and enslave worlds. Were demons spawn on worlds to taint those pure. Were Tyranix feast on the bodies of their victims. Were Taal expand and conquer for the greater good. Were billions upon billions die daily.
This is DeadZone
In DeadZone you can create your own stats, wich are used to create a unit. special rules, weapons and armor are all purchaseable. Each stat more than 0 cost points, so M=1 point for every stat upgrade, WS=5 BS=5 S=4 T=3 W=6 I=2. EG, Space ork pirate, light infantry; M WSBS S T W I 4 4 2 3 4 1 2 = 67
The game would be a small, skirmish style. the points for a game can range between 200pts to 5000pts. there are 4 different types of infantry; Light, Heavy, Specialist and Support.
Light infantry can have a maximum stat line; M/6 WS/4 BS/4 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/4 Light infantry can take light armor for 2 points, and heavy armor for 5 points.
Heavy can have a min of; M/1 WS/2 BS/2 S/2 T/2 W/1 I/1 And a max of; M/3 WS/6 BS/6 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/4 Heavy infantry can only choose heavy weapons. they have the coice to upgrade to heavy armor for 4 additional points.
Specialist infantry can have a min of; M/5 WS/2 BS/2 S/3 T/2 W/2 I/3 a max of; M/10 WS/7 BS/4 S/5 T/5 W/3 I/7
One of these stats must upgraded to 8 for 5 points less
Suport can have a min of their race stat line and a max of: M/6 WS/4 BS/4 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/7 They can purchase up to two support special rules.
All races must have a base statline. this refers to their race. a base statline is the statline of their average citizen. here is an example of an normal human statline; M/3 WS/2 BS/2 S/2 T/2 W/1 I/3 The statline of a unit cannot go below the base statline for the race. nor may the light, heavy or support infantry may exceed any stats on the base statline by 2 stats. Specialist may exceed by 3 points. Leaders may exceed by 5. 1 stat in the base statline MUST stay the same throughout the army. The one stat that must be kept the same throughout the army cost as shown: M=70pts WS=0pts BS=0pts S=5pts T=5pts I=60pts W=0pts Leaders ignore this rule.
One leader maybe chosen per army, they may have a max of 500pts and a min of 100pts. They are the only choice in the game that may not have to follow the one stat stay the same rule. If the leader is killed, all units must roll a dice, if the number is below 3 the unit may not move this turn. if the number is above, they may move as normal. Leaders may take light armor free, and heavy armor for 3pts. A leader also gets 10% of the cost for a specific stat, rounded down.
More to come, Heavy weapons are essentially more powerful than normal weapons, ill think of tanks later. I wanted to change the names of the races so that it isnt just 40k with slightly different rules. Suggestions would be great!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/02 03:37:18
DAWARBOSS wrote:Made some rules up, put them in a spoiler to stop this thread from getting clogged up. I present to you...
DeadZone!
Spoiler:
Rules for DeadZone. A minature game set in the far future. Were humans fight for their emperor. Were space orcs wage battles to put space into never ending war. Were the Eldan fight for their very survival, and their dark cousins torture and enslave worlds. Were demons spawn on worlds to taint those pure. Were Tyranix feast on the bodies of their victims. Were Taal expand and conquer for the greater good. Were billions upon billions die daily.
This is DeadZone
In DeadZone you can create your own stats, wich are used to create a unit. special rules, weapons and armor are all purchaseable. Each stat more than 0 cost points, so M=1 point for every stat upgrade, WS=5 BS=5 S=4 T=3 W=6 I=2. EG,
Space ork pirate, light infantry;
M WSBS S T W I
4 4 2 3 4 1 2 = 67
The game would be a small, skirmish style. the points for a game can range between 200pts to 5000pts. there are 4 different types of infantry; Light, Heavy, Specialist and Support.
Light infantry can have a maximum stat line;
M/6 WS/4 BS/4 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/4
Light infantry can take light armor for 2 points, and heavy armor for 5 points.
Heavy can have a min of;
M/1 WS/2 BS/2 S/2 T/2 W/1 I/1
And a max of;
M/3 WS/6 BS/6 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/4
Heavy infantry can only choose heavy weapons. they have the coice to upgrade to heavy armor for 4 additional points.
Specialist infantry can have a min of;
M/5 WS/2 BS/2 S/3 T/2 W/2 I/3
a max of;
M/10 WS/7 BS/4 S/5 T/5 W/3 I/7
One of these stats must upgraded to 8 for 5 points less
Suport can have a min of their race stat line and a max of:
M/6 WS/4 BS/4 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/7
They can purchase up to two support special rules.
All races must have a base statline. this refers to their race. a base statline is the statline of their average citizen. here is an example of an normal human statline;
M/3 WS/2 BS/2 S/2 T/2 W/1 I/3
The statline of a unit cannot go below the base statline for the race. nor may the light, heavy or support infantry may exceed any stats on the base statline by 2 stats. Specialist may exceed by 3 points. Leaders may exceed by 5. 1 stat in the base statline MUST stay the same throughout the army. The one stat that must be kept the same throughout the army cost as shown:
M=70pts WS=0pts BS=0pts S=5pts T=5pts I=60pts W=0pts
Leaders ignore this rule.
One leader maybe chosen per army, they may have a max of 500pts and a min of 100pts. They are the only choice in the game that may not have to follow the one stat stay the same rule. If the leader is killed, all units must roll a dice, if the number is below 3 the unit may not move this turn. if the number is above, they may move as normal. Leaders may take light armor free, and heavy armor for 3pts. A leader also gets 10% of the cost for a specific stat, rounded down.
More to come, Heavy weapons are essentially more powerful than normal weapons, ill think of tanks later. I wanted to change the names of the races so that it isnt just 40k with slightly different rules. Suggestions would be great!
DAWARBOSS wrote:Made some rules up, put them in a spoiler to stop this thread from getting clogged up. I present to you...
DeadZone!
Spoiler:
Rules for DeadZone. A minature game set in the far future. Were humans fight for their emperor. Were space orcs wage battles to put space into never ending war. Were the Eldan fight for their very survival, and their dark cousins torture and enslave worlds. Were demons spawn on worlds to taint those pure. Were Tyranix feast on the bodies of their victims. Were Taal expand and conquer for the greater good. Were billions upon billions die daily.
This is DeadZone
In DeadZone you can create your own stats, wich are used to create a unit. special rules, weapons and armor are all purchaseable. Each stat more than 0 cost points, so M=1 point for every stat upgrade, WS=5 BS=5 S=4 T=3 W=6 I=2. EG,
Space ork pirate, light infantry;
M WSBS S T W I
4 4 2 3 4 1 2 = 67
The game would be a small, skirmish style. the points for a game can range between 200pts to 5000pts. there are 4 different types of infantry; Light, Heavy, Specialist and Support.
Light infantry can have a maximum stat line;
M/6 WS/4 BS/4 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/4
Light infantry can take light armor for 2 points, and heavy armor for 5 points.
Heavy can have a min of;
M/1 WS/2 BS/2 S/2 T/2 W/1 I/1
And a max of;
M/3 WS/6 BS/6 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/4
Heavy infantry can only choose heavy weapons. they have the coice to upgrade to heavy armor for 4 additional points.
Specialist infantry can have a min of;
M/5 WS/2 BS/2 S/3 T/2 W/2 I/3
a max of;
M/10 WS/7 BS/4 S/5 T/5 W/3 I/7
One of these stats must upgraded to 8 for 5 points less
Suport can have a min of their race stat line and a max of:
M/6 WS/4 BS/4 S/4 T/4 W/1 I/7
They can purchase up to two support special rules.
All races must have a base statline. this refers to their race. a base statline is the statline of their average citizen. here is an example of an normal human statline;
M/3 WS/2 BS/2 S/2 T/2 W/1 I/3
The statline of a unit cannot go below the base statline for the race. nor may the light, heavy or support infantry may exceed any stats on the base statline by 2 stats. Specialist may exceed by 3 points. Leaders may exceed by 5. 1 stat in the base statline MUST stay the same throughout the army. The one stat that must be kept the same throughout the army cost as shown:
M=70pts WS=0pts BS=0pts S=5pts T=5pts I=60pts W=0pts
Leaders ignore this rule.
One leader maybe chosen per army, they may have a max of 500pts and a min of 100pts. They are the only choice in the game that may not have to follow the one stat stay the same rule. If the leader is killed, all units must roll a dice, if the number is below 3 the unit may not move this turn. if the number is above, they may move as normal. Leaders may take light armor free, and heavy armor for 3pts. A leader also gets 10% of the cost for a specific stat, rounded down.
More to come, Heavy weapons are essentially more powerful than normal weapons, ill think of tanks later. I wanted to change the names of the races so that it isnt just 40k with slightly different rules. Suggestions would be great!
I found this very funny.
huh? what do you mean funny? just an WIP... Is it bad?
Hello again.
JUST TO BE CLEAR, when I suggested using modern warfare units as a base for the simulation , I was refering the the GAME MECHANICS used. The setting a what the units look like and fight like would be determined by the background writers.
Modern warfare simulation covers the game play type of WWII to present and into the future , if warfare continues to use similar unit types.
EG if you think the opening sequence to Dawn of war is how the game should play , then that is a simulation of modern wafare assault-defence.
Notice how the orks do not move forward, while the SM stand and wait, then the orks shoot, while the SM get hit and fall over, then the orks move forward into assault clobber the marines , and the the marins clout them back.
Units take apropriate actions and the opposing units respond .
The rough outline for a rule set I posted earlier can be used for ANY modern warfare ground combat.(WWII, to 1000 years into the future.)
I prefer to have a even loading of mobility-firepower and assault.
However if the majority like heavy assault loading , then thats fine too, but just dont get there by abstracting morale like 40k does.
As reguard to the dice used.
Using a larger dice for UNIT action rolls , eg where you throw one dice per unit for Morale Checks or Target Aquisition, is great.
But using the ubiquitous D6 when rolling saves etc, where number of dice thrown is a factor, is a good comprimise IMO.
If you use dice in a deterministic way,(eg the dice roll is the ONLY deciding factor,) eg roll over value X for sucess.
Then no matter what size of dice you use you end up with only 2 posible results, sucess or fail.
Where as if you use the dice base score that is modified by skill-situation.OR use the dice as a modifier to a skill score then you can get more proportional results.
Eg If you deduct the target armour value from the attackers weapon damage to arrive at the saving throw required.
Then the weapon power and the armour strenght determine the save throw , not a FIXED set value rolled on a D6.
ONLY if you are using a an alternating game turn , eg one player does EVERTHING with all units , then the other palyer does EVERYTHING with all units , is it important for the defender to roll saves last.
If however you use a game turn mechanic written in the last 20 years , not the last 50 !
You can arrive at a far more tacticaly rewarding and interactive game turn.
Lanrak wrote:If you want a good skirmish game for 28mm, there are loads currently available.
StargruntII, Fast and Dirty, No limits ,ChainReactionIII, Infinity etc.
You can find links to the free to download ones at freewargamesrules...
...Why are people concerned about manufacturing new minatures?
Are there not enough minature manufactureres currently available?
If you are NOT using GW rules you, can still use your curent scifi minature colection to play surley?
3 very good points.
1) No one should start a new ruleset without reading through several different rulesets. Tons of folks coming out of GW have written their own ruleset, and mostly they tend to look like 40k clones. I'm currently working on a ruleset for car combat. Before I started writing, I read 6 different car combat rulesets and read reveiws of 3-4 more.
2) Unless you've got significant financial backing, it's probably better to focus on making rules or miniatures, not both.
3) Don't be too attached to having to have certain miniatures for a certain game.
Additionally.
Rule writing should not be a committe event until after the first draft has been written.
Before you start writing a rulest these are just a few of the things you should take into consderation.
1) What scale?
2) What is the scope of battle (skirmish, platoon, mass battle)
3) How complex do you want the rules to be?
4) How long do you want the game to take?
5) What kind of activation system do you like?
6) What's the era?
Too many folks try to make a ruleset that will cover all scale's, scopes, era's. Era may be fudgable, but I've yet to see a ruleset that truely covers a wide range of scopes and scale's well without an additinal supplement or separate set of sub-rules dealing with different scales/scopes.
Lastly,
Before writing your own ruleset, consider modfiying an existing rulest. There are so many rulesets out there, that it's very likely that there's one you can modify or house rule to get it to do what you want.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/02 16:47:11
I've spent some time with friends thinking about creating a new game or simply overhauling 40k (50k ).
I'm not very skilled at rules design, but I'm a master of character design! If anyone is interested,
I would be more than happy to help in the designs of races and cultures of a Dakka game.
Thanks for the ideas for scattering peeps, am liking them all.
Thinking of using the idea of having a grid with shots hitting different squares would make a good spray or grenade or cluster bomb template.
I can't work out how to have a good CC system that is brutal but is smooth. Thoughts Dakka?
DaemonJellybaby wrote:Thanks for the ideas for scattering peeps, am liking them all.
Thinking of using the idea of having a grid with shots hitting different squares would make a good spray or grenade or cluster bomb template.
I can't work out how to have a good CC system that is brutal but is smooth. Thoughts Dakka?
What other CC systems have you read and what have you liked or not-liked about them? Give us some idea of what you are looking for.
Just to say I have been designing a new game and I have the barebones here for you all to read. I will be adding more to it when I can eventually be bothered to.
Space Wolves: 10 Grey Hunters, 5 Terminators, 1 Wolf Priest
Dark Eldar: 10 Wyches, 1 Succubus
Skaven: IoB, 3 Extra Rat Ogres, 1 Grey Seer, 1 Warlord
High Elves: IoB
KingCracker wrote: I wont lie, I laughed a bit. I do feel a bit sorry for the poor folks that were sleeping, and suddenly woke up on the ceiling
Well I have read the current 40kCC rules
Like: they are simple and brutal,
Dislike: GW's and rely on large amounts of attacks rather than good quality attacks
2nd Ed CC rules
Like: they are very different to the current rules and show how combat can change
Dislike: Takes ages to play out because it is one-on-one therefore is not smooth, and is GW's
Crimson Galaxy
Like:Options when charged, combat res,
Dislike:Odd wording on some things make it hard to understand fully, to hit score modifiers
I would recommend checking out infinity, Warmahordes and Inquisitor's combat rules as they are all very different and show a different approach/level of detail.
Mary Sue wrote: Perkustin is even more awesome than me!
1. The concept could be an arena fighting thing [or just on the front lines of a big ongoing war]. Like putting people in suits [maybe like crisis suit things (I am currently working on a suit that has come from my own mind when I was thinking about ‘Skinnie Venerable Marauders’ and the ‘Tau Crisis Suit’ and I put my own spin on it and I WILL be reproducing it. [no it doesn’t have any GW parts on it or any other parts. It is mainly green-stuff, plastic card, and plastic sprews.]) Maybe it could be some way that the universe settles fights and or wars or just for fun and fame. You could play with a few men [say 5 on a team or less] and have a lot more options than the usual 40k unit (like have different weapons and equipment. Different suits, ex.).
2. I’m a good artist and I could put pictures up of my vision. I mean really, who would be better at envisioning the creators vision then the creator?
3. The scale could be the same as 40k [but they would be in suits so… Ya know].
4. I would have to think about the rule sets.
5. I am starting to make my own miniatures [I have yet to mold them (soon though, soon)].
It could be a skirmish game too. I think it would be quite fun.
MeanGreenStompa
Mantic are doing a sci fi game , exellent!
(Lets see what Alessio comes up with for sci fi rules.When allowed to write rules on his own he can develop great rule sets....)
DeamonJellyBaby
I would just like to point out that the rules for 40k ARE NOT SIMPLE.They are over complicated.
The basic mechanics are quite simple, but they cover so little of the game play 40k requires 2 extra rule sets to cover the bits the core rules miss.(Vehicle rules and USR-special rules.)
Eg
Basic mechanic.' Roll over the models armour save to prevent the wound.'
Inclusive clause 'UNLESS the weapons AP value is lower than the save.'
(Extra unecissary exceptions)
USR-special rules.
UNLESS the model has an invunerable save,
UNLESS the weapon ignores that particualr type of invunerable save,
Vehicle rules.
UNLESS the target unit is vehicle then use a completly seperate system !!! (AV vs weapon strenght!)
ACTUAL SIMPLE RULES>
Basic mechanic.Deduct the targets armour value from the weapons damage value to determine the save roll reqired.(This alos provides natural invunerablity and auto wound.)
Thats it , it applies to ALL units and gives scalable results across all weapon and armour interaction.
The type of rules I prefer tend to cover EVERTHING in the core rules , and they tend to be less than 40 pages of text.
But then I prefer tactical loading (choces in game,)over strategic loading (build dependant,) in games.
.
