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Don't really know about any reliable textbook on the subject. But I'm sure you don't need to look long for an author that delves in mindaltering substances . Love those guys by the way.

Any book by Hunter S. Thomson

No, have you? if so, why?

Why would I know? I don't know what goes through the minds of addicts (apart from their addiction)

No, I've only seen what self-righteous things do in order to fuel their righteousness.

Sounds like something someone from a moderately decent neighbourhood would say. It doesn't seem bad unless your living in an area troubled by the stuff.

Oh No! I'm sorry that you were inconvenienced!

You do know these people are dangerous right? They've mugged people for money for the addiction. Addicts will go to whatever length they need to, to get money to fuel their thirst for their drug of choice.

I'm waiting for a non-emotional justification.

The fact that literally no good will come from legalisation anyway?

Mr. Hyena wrote:I've never seen such pathetic....animals as serious drug addicts. They don't even deserve to be called human.

You know who really doesn't deserve the title 'human'?

An ignorant bigot who judges all people based on one denominator. One who is completely oblivious and lacking any sort of sympathy or empathy for his fellow man, and who thinks his own view of things is the only acceptable view.

You're despicable. Honestly. I don't think that any statement I've read over the internet has ever caused me to become so irate. I can tell that you aren't fishing for arguments, and that you honestly believe this, but I am completely incredulous.

Did you grow up in a poor area? I did. Have you seen or read some of the things these...things do, to get money to fuel their addiction? Have you actually walked into a pharmacist and seen these 'zombies' (seriously, thats what they look like. Shrunken face and everything) lining up for their Methadone? Its a horrible situation to be in when your just in for a prescription.

Pot probably wouldn't be as bad as that. That much is true. However I doubt it will take long for Heroin, Ecstasy and similar to become legal as well after.

I'm sure you would have the same reaction in a cancer ward at a hospital, wouldn't you?

Prescriptions are just as much of a crutch, they cause just as much damage to your mental condition (and most of the time, just as many physical problems), and the only reason they are deemed acceptable is because your government can serve to make some money off of them. If you depend on prescription medication to function, how are you any better than a Heroin addict? Because you paid top dollar to your psychiatrist or physician so he could pump you full of horrible medications that are all synthesized, bastardized clones of real, effective drugs? I think it's time you did a little introspective reality check.

There are just as many drug addicts in rich areas as there are in poor areas. The types of drugs differ, the legality of drugs differ, and 'drug-fueled' crimes are more apparent in less policed areas, but drug addiction is a fairly universal thing.

Most hardcore drugs have a synthetic equivalent that are already legal via prescription. There are tons of opioids already on the legal market used for pain relief, and you can get a fething prescription to amphetamines for attention deficit disorder (which isn't even a debilitating disorder by any means). The neurological blockers present in these drugs are generally worse for you than the 'hard drug' they are derived from. Honestly, what's the negative difference that you place so much importance in?

Heres the problem: what works for one...likely doesn't work for all.

You should really take your own advice to heart.

Ever had someone in your area die due to a junked-up idiot?

Yes. But you should really consider placing more value in the fact that they were an idiot than the fact that they were high; the two terms are not exactly interchangeable. The things that someone will do to get high is indicative of the person, not the drug. If every heavy drug user was sucking dick and mugging people to get their fix, you would see a whole lot more prostitution and theft than you currently do.

There are far more drunk driving accidents than any other ancillary drug-related crimes, and it's all due to the user's idiocy and lack of self-control.

One who is completely oblivious and lacking any sort of sympathy or empathy for his fellow man

That flew well out of the window thanks to personal experience. I have no empathy for people who give nothing to the country and instead do all they can to make it worse for everyone else.

I'm sure you would have the same reaction in a cancer ward at a hospital, wouldn't you?

Thats completely different. You don't choose to get cancer. But you choose to take drugs.

Medical drugs aren't perfect but they are the only alternative to heal the body. Its the doctors choice to decide if the overall payoff is worth it for the body.

real, effective drugs

I really really hope you aren't trying to say that 'natural' herbal treatments are as good as true medicines...

Honestly, what's the negative difference that you place so much importance in?

Its the addiction.

If every heavy drug user was sucking dick and mugging people to get their fix, you would see a whole lot more prostitution and theft than you currently do.

Do you think it would lessen, at all, with legalisation?

Mr Hyena wrote:

I really really hope you aren't trying to say that 'natural' herbal treatments are as good as true medicines...

What would you call a true medicine? weeds been used for 2,500 years +, you saying its useless?



If your addicted too drugs, your not automatically a mugging anti social blight, that is a sterotype used by people who dont have any experience in poor/drug areas

I grew up in a good area, middle of nowhere to be honest, but alot of my mates live in an area notorious for its drug users
Nice people, honestly, nicer people than my neighbours. They are not ignorant people with dillusions of grandeur.
The are is infamous for knife related crime. But these are from alcohol related instances.

stoners live stoners die, but in the end we all get high, so in life if you dont succeed feth the gak and smoke some weed...

What would you call a true medicine? weeds been used for 2,500 years +, you saying its useless?

People use it to get high and for pain relief (in moderation). I'd hardly say it compares to proper; safe pain relief.

Mr Hyena wrote:

No, have you? if so, why?

Why would I know? I don't know what goes through the minds of addicts (apart from their addiction)

No, I've only seen what self-righteous things do in order to fuel their righteousness.

Sounds like something someone from a moderately decent neighbourhood would say. It doesn't seem bad unless your living in an area troubled by the stuff.

Oh No! I'm sorry that you were inconvenienced!

You do know these people are dangerous right? They've mugged people for money for the addiction. Addicts will go to whatever length they need to, to get money to fuel their thirst for their drug of choice.

I'm waiting for a non-emotional justification.

The fact that literally no good will come from legalisation anyway?

You do realize that every single problem you're describing would be mitigated by regulated legalization, right? Criminalization only creates a black market, which is a profitable revenue source for criminals, and black market goods are inherently lower quality, more expensive, and more dangerous than those produced by a regulated industry. You don't see people looting houses because they need beer or cigarette money (unless they're already robbers, of course).

Unless they find a way of strictly limiting how much weed each person can buy, I don't see how they can improve our streets from them.

Cigarette/Alchohol addiction is alot different to other drug addiction.

Mr Hyena wrote:

What would you call a true medicine? weeds been used for 2,500 years +, you saying its useless?

People use it to get high and for pain relief (in moderation). I'd hardly say it compares to proper; safe pain relief.

You mean the extremely addictive, extremely dangerous, relatively ineffective opiates that are legal painkillers? Or the extremely toxic, largely ineffective stuff like acetaminophen that get stuffed into 90% of over the counter medicines as a pain reliever?

You mean the extremely addictive, extremely dangerous, relatively ineffective opiates that are legal painkillers? Or the extremely toxic, largely ineffective stuff like acetaminophen that get stuffed into 90% of over the counter medicines as a pain reliever?

Psychosis and other effects are better?

Mr Hyena wrote:

What would you call a true medicine? weeds been used for 2,500 years +, you saying its useless?

People use it to get high and for pain relief (in moderation). I'd hardly say it compares to proper; safe pain relief.

No pain relief is safe. It's all hazardous in any kind of stronger dosage, and are extremely addictive.

You know that heroin is made out of the same stuff, right?

I know. I just don't think we have anywhere near the right sort of plan ready to even begin to think of legalising these drugs.

Mr Hyena wrote:Unless they find a way of strictly limiting how much weed each person can buy, I don't see how they can improve our streets from them.

Joints should be sold like cigarettes, in cheap packs in convenience stores. No one's going to bother selling them on the black market if they're even as cheap as tobacco, which is in excess of 50% vice tax.

Cigarette/Alchohol addiction is alot different to other drug addiction.

You ever gone into nicotine withdrawal? Going from even three or four cigarettes a day to nothing feels like a barbed hook in the back of your skull, and leaves your entire body feeling numb and tense. Sure, it can't kill you; alcohol withdrawal can, though. Granted to get to the point of being physically addicted to it you have to be genetically predisposed, and drink an absurd amount for a very long time, but the point stands.


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Mr Hyena wrote:

You mean the extremely addictive, extremely dangerous, relatively ineffective opiates that are legal painkillers? Or the extremely toxic, largely ineffective stuff like acetaminophen that get stuffed into 90% of over the counter medicines as a pain reliever?

Psychosis and other effects are better?

There is no medical basis to believe it causes neurological problems, and the only studies on the matter showed a minor (one or two percent) correlation with schizophrenia, with a small sample size. You'd find the same correlation with tobacco use, because of the well-documented fact that schizophrenics have a tendency to try to medicate themselves with psychoactive chemicals, even prior to being diagnosed.

Mr Hyena wrote:

What would you call a true medicine? weeds been used for 2,500 years +, you saying its useless?

People use it to get high and for pain relief (in moderation). I'd hardly say it compares to proper; safe pain relief.

Safe pain relief? what would you call safe pain relief?
Panadol? overdoses cause liver failure and death

You obviously have no idea of the medical use of weed,

its been proven too fight/relieve symtoms:
Brain cancer
Opioid dependence (Heroin dependence)
multiple sclerosis
HIV/AIDS
Alzheimer's disease
Back pain
Insomnia
Headaches
Boredom lol
a whole host of gastrointestinal disorders

Seriously dude, do some research

htj wrote:
You know that heroin is made out of the same stuff, right?

Opium? I know that they both have the same plant-derived compound, but developed in deferent ways

Mr Hyena wrote:I know. I just don't think we have anywhere near the right sort of plan ready to even begin to think of legalising these drugs.

But do you not think that a plan could be implemented?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pursuit-Oblivion-History-Narcotics-1500-2000/dp/0753813718/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1307102407&sr=8-2-spell

is an excellent review of the history of drugs in the Western World.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cannabis-Culture-Journey-Disputed-Territory/dp/0747566143/ref=pd_sim_b_1

is a more personal, yet erudite and very interesting review of the situation around Cannabis. It has little or nothing to say about harder drugs.

Mr Hyena wrote:That flew well out of the window thanks to personal experience. I have no empathy for people who give nothing to the country and instead do all they can to make it worse for everyone else.

Your experience is all secondhand, and though you've encountered numerous drug addicts in your life (I promise), you only remember the worst of the bunch. As such, you cannot even pretend to know anything. Also, you continue to make broad, sweeping generalizations of an entire culture of people based on your closed-mindedness and ignorance, so that further drives home this point.

Even the worst drug users are entirely selfish; they aren't actively seeking to make your life worse, they just don't care what they have to do in order to make their lives better. Again, I have to stress that this is definitely a minority, not the majority that you make it out to be

What do you do that contributes to society? Will your life make an honest impact on more than a handful of people? Probably not. Ultimately, you aren't any more or less useful than someone who spends all of their money on self-indulgence, in the grand scheme of things.

Thats completely different. You don't choose to get cancer. But you choose to take drugs.

I was referring more to how you were disgusted by their very appearance, as if someone looking like a zombie offended you greatly. It's still the same shallow principle.

Medical drugs aren't perfect but they are the only alternative to heal the body. Its the doctors choice to decide if the overall payoff is worth it for the body.

Medicinal drugs are far from 'not perfect'. If I had to go through a list of debilitating effects of popular medications, it would take an endless number of hours. The truth is, watered-down prescriptions have far more negative side effects than the majority of illegal drugs, without nearly as many tangible positive effects. I know someone who is morbidly obese, has to wear a diaper due to incontenance, and gaks blood because of a series of mood stabilizers. If you consider that 'healing the body', then you're insane.

Doctors shouldn't have any more of a right to decide what goes in my body than I do (more often than not, they're terribly inaccurate anyway). If I want to spend my free time getting fethed up and self-medicating, let me. If it ends up harming anyone else in any tangible way, then you should arrest me.

I really really hope you aren't trying to say that 'natural' herbal treatments are as good as true medicines...

While I'm not insinuating that hard drugs are natural in any way, I am saying that they have more positive effects that can be more beneficial if treated as medicine. Again, most 'true medicines' are just molecular derivitives of hard drugs with neurological blockers added in that serve to give them less of a kick and make them legal (and destroy your brain chemistry even worse than before in the process).

Its the addiction.

If you don't think that it is possible to become addicted to prescription drugs (even on a regulated basis), you're an idiot.

Hell, withdrawal from Xanax can fething kill you. Not even heroin can boast that.

Do you think it would lessen, at all, with legalisation?

Ever seen anybody suck dick for some alcohol?

Point proven.

Cigarette/Alchohol addiction is alot different to other drug addiction.

Psychosis and other effects are better?

Sounds like someone really needs to do their research. You should honestly learn about something before you try to justify hatred towards it.

Cigarette and Alcohol addiction is the same thing, in principle, as any other physical or mental addiction (though cigarettes cause a bit less dependance, since they do so little for you aside from keeping you from withdrawing from them). Alcohol addiction is far, far worse for you than any other kind of drug addiction. If you have unfortunately become consumed by it, physical addiction to alcohol can kill you. The only other class of drug that can kill you via withdrawal are barbiturates (which are alll legal as well, by the way). If you want to see true drug-induced psychosis, try having a basic conversation with a heavy alcoholic, even when they aren't drunk.

My father suffers permanently from minor brain damage, heart disease, liver damage, and ulcerative collitis because he was an alcoholic. He is in worse shape than any drug user I have ever seen in my life, and my entire social circle basically consists of assorted drug addicts. He barely even recognizes me most of the time, and I'm his own fething son. All of this damage he has suffered is permanent; he's been completely clean for more than a decade.

Other drugs do not cause this sort of permanent damage so readily.

Sorry about your father man, that's terrible.

You do make a valid point on medical drugs not being any more dangerous than illegal.

But I think it's important to remember that the illegal drugs are designed to have a intoxicating effect on people, and that our legal drugs are designed to relieve pain or some other illness. The same basic incredience are used in both but the desired effect may differ.

I'm currently on an opiat based presciption to relieve backpains. Although pot works about 10 times better, in the relief of my pains, it also leaves me babling and staring at my hands for hours. Medical prescribed drugs at least leaves me with a clear head.

It is not always a case of the drugs themselves being more or less dangerous, but also the environment, quality of supplies, lack of structured support, etc that make illegal drugs so much more dangerous.

And the fact that they are often taken for recreational purposes rather than carefully prescribed medicinal reasons.

Toastedandy wrote:
But anyway weed is a gateway drug, if you think differently, wait a few years and I can guarantee you will try something harder.

I've been on the Herb for more than half my life, dabbled a bit with psychedelics (i even watched Saw whilst tripping my tits off) but i have never felt the need to indulge in pills or powders or anything harder... Gateway drug, yeah the gateway to high sugar intake at antisocial hours and spending 40mins looking for papers

Blackskullandy wrote:I've been on the Herb for more than half my life, dabbled a bit with psychedelics (i even watched Saw whilst tripping my tits off) but i have never felt the need to indulge in pills or powders or anything harder... Gateway drug, yeah the gateway to high sugar intake at antisocial hours and spending 40mins looking for papers

Thats what I meant, hardest thing I did was Shrooms or LSD, but I tried them through weed, and same with you(I presume)
Psychedelics would be considered a harder drug, which was opened to us through weed

So ipso factso weeds a gateway drug

And for those anecdotal evidences, I have plenty of friends who haven't done anything "harder" than marijuana. Meh? Better proof would be research.

"I smoked pot and never escalated my drug use to heroin" Is a lame attack on the gateway drug theory. The gateway drug theory is total BS, but there is a right and a wrong way to attack it. Drug addicts have psychological problems that overcome their healthy coping mechanisms. They will continue to either abuse their current drug of choice larger quantities, or turn to a more powerful drug. The choice to advance to hard drugs is because their need to get wasted is greater than their self of self preservation, their need to get wasted is greater than their common sense, and/or they have a delusional sense of invulnerability where they honestly believe that they can do hard drugs and not become addicted. The drug addict will continue to use harder and harder drugs because their need to get wasted is infinite, and quality of a high that drugs provide is finite. If THC did not exist on our planet they would skip the pot smoking phase entirely and move straight from alcohol to hard drugs. If hard drugs did not exist they would just end up sniffing paint fumes. Smoking pot doesn't turn people into hard drug addicts, on the road to addiction hard drug addicts discover pot doesn't do gak for them so they move on to more powerful drugs in an attempt to fill a want that can never be fulfilled. "I smoked pot and never escalated my drug use to heroin" is a gak attack against the gateway drug theory because as a person who is a not a hard drug addict your subjective experience is worthless in this debate. I've worked in the psych field with hard drug addicts since the early 90s, and their subjective experience is more valid in this debate than yours. Most of them will say pot had no impact on their life, and with or without pot they would have still made the worst mistake they have ever made in their life by getting into hard drugs. That is the end all and be all of attacks against the gateway drug theory.

All of that being said drug prohibition has failed on an even larger scale than alcohol prohibition. Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The only nation that has ever won a war on drugs is China after WW2. Because of the long history of other nations pushing opium on the Chinese people to either exploit them (as the British did) or destabilize the nation (as the Japanese did) the communist party regarded the sale and use of opium as an act of treason that was intended to destabilize the state, with the penalty for treason being death. The same tactics the Chinese used would work in the USA. Declare martial law, suspend every amendment in the bill of rights, and summarily execute anybody with any quantity of illegal drugs in their possession. Smuggle drugs into the USA=summarily execute all offending parties on the spot. Sell drugs on a street corner=summarily execute all offending parties on the spot. Have drugs in your house=summarily execute all offending parties on the spot. Pulled over with a joint in your car=summarily execute all offending parties on the spot. Catch a couple of 13 year old kids smoking pot in the boys room at school=summarily execute all offending parties on the spot. Have the military conduct unwarranted searches to look for drugs, and if they feel like it torture people you suspect might have information before executing them. Winning the war will cost all civil liberties and a few million bodies. History has shown that nothing short of what post WW2 China did is sufficient to win the war on drugs, and as soon as a nation softens up the war starts all over again. If we as a nation are not willing to pay the price for a prolonged war what are we doing entering the war in the first place?

Drug prohibition has failed on an even larger scale than alcohol prohibition. Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Melissia wrote:And for those anecdotal evidences, I have plenty of friends who haven't done anything "harder" than marijuana. Meh? Better proof would be research.

I dont understand
Research from me? or you?
and proof for what?

Chrysaor686 wrote:(though cigarettes cause a bit less dependance, since they do so little for you aside from keeping you from withdrawing from them)

This isn't true. Nicotine feels great on its own, although removing withdrawal symptoms does play into things aside from that. It's a myth that people only smoke to get rid of withdrawal symptoms, and a patently absurd one when one applies any thought to it: it takes months of regular use to get to noticeable withdrawal symptoms, and to start with there are unpleasant side effects when one's not used to it, like one's lungs aching, or the nausea that accompanies nicotine until one develops a mild tolerance to it; the positive effects are more than enough to override the immediate negatives.

Mr Hyena wrote:
Sounds like something someone from a moderately decent neighbourhood would say. It doesn't seem bad unless your living in an area troubled by the stuff.

You really can't see beyond your own system of valuation, can you?

Mr Hyena wrote:
You do know these people are dangerous right? They've mugged people for money for the addiction. Addicts will go to whatever length they need to, to get money to fuel their thirst for their drug of choice.

All people are dangerous. You're dangerous. By your very existence you present a threat to everyone around you, so do I, and so does everyone else.

Mr Hyena wrote:
The fact that literally no good will come from legalisation anyway?

That's an emotional justification. Try again.


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Mr Hyena wrote:
Psychosis and other effects are better?

There's a qualitative difference?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:This isn't true. Nicotine feels great on its own, although removing withdrawal symptoms does play into things aside from that. It's a myth that people only smoke to get rid of withdrawal symptoms, and a patently absurd one when one applies any thought to it: it takes months of regular use to get to noticeable withdrawal symptoms, and to start with there are unpleasant side effects when one's not used to it, like one's lungs aching, or the nausea that accompanies nicotine until one develops a mild tolerance to it; the positive effects are more than enough to override the immediate negatives.

A myth cannot have evidence backing it up, even if it is anecdotal.

I have been smoking for about eight years. The only time I really feel the effects of cigarettes anymore is when I smoke one when I first wake up (even then, nicotine only lasts so long). Other than that, I might get a slight buzz for a minute or two (esp. if I'm high on something else), but I only smoke because if I don't, I get extremely irritated and incredibly hungry.

True, when you first start smoking cigarettes, they do give you a pretty heavy buzz and allow you to relax (though again, it doesn't last for a prolonged period of time). This phase does go away fairly quickly, though, and you will end up smoking only because you're addicted to cigarettes, unless you're intelligent enough to avoid cigarettes completely. Overall, smoking is a completely worthless endeavor, as the negative effects far outweigh the positive ones (moreso than any other substance).

snapsepaven wrote:But I think it's important to remember that the illegal drugs are designed to have a intoxicating effect on people, and that our legal drugs are designed to relieve pain or some other illness. The same basic incredience are used in both but the desired effect may differ.

A lot of prescription drugs still have a fairly intoxicating effect. OxyContin, Percocet, Phentanyl, etc. will feth you up pretty hard (and that's basically their entire purpose). Recently, there has been a major influx of people who actively seek out prescription medication for recreational purposes, and become addicted to it. Withdrawal from opioids is awful (it causes severe migraines, joint pain, a ridiculous amount of mucus drainage, tremors, vomiting, etc.), so it is much easier to become addicted to these drugs than the majority of black market drugs, despite the fact that the high really only boils down to a basic body high (it's not even a great pain reliever, it simply makes you apathetic towards your suffering).

While there are some truly beneficial and life-saving medications, they are few and far between. Most prescriptions have just taken the basic structure behind black market drugs (because they actually work) and watered them down enough to make them acceptable to the FDA. For instance, most anti-depressants are designed to mimic the euphoric effects of amphetamines, yet psychiatrists will not prescribe amphetamines for depression (despite the fact that they are also a controlled substance; this is probably due to the fact that legal amphetamines contain a drug which dampens your dopamine receptors and can lead to permanent manic depression). Instead, you are left with a sad shell of this drug, with ten times as many negative side effects (including autonomous suicide, which seems incredibly counterintuitive for a drug that is supposed to cure depression!).

The title says "We lost", but I prefer to think of it as my side winning.

Mr Hyena wrote:Why would I know?

So then you have no idea what happened?