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Kilkrazy wrote:"Fear not the clumsy Carnifex!"

On second thought this is much better. One can't question alliteration, after all.


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Flinty wrote:Its probably been said already, but lasguns are supposed to be euivalent to autoguns in effectiveness, hence the easiest answer to the OPs question is "about the same as a modern rifle round"

Ex-fething-actly.

Enough of this "blow up limbs and decapitate people" nonsense.

Hellguns, although obviously stronger than a lasgun go through an Ork's head and just disintegrate it and keep going. If that puts a normal lasguns power into perspective.

Equivalent to autoguns? Maybe, but an autogun is far more powerful than a modern rifle.

It's a bit higher caliber than most modern assault rifles' 7.62mm rounds at any rate, with a better explosive charge using fyceline.

No they're not. They are low-tech slug throwers supposedly manufactured on equivalent tech planets to our current age. They can be self-made in the Underhive for a start. I've never seen any references to them being made out of anything particularly special and therefore will be subject to similar limits on cartridge power as modern rifles.

Modern rifles are particularly effective bits of kit.

Come on guys and gals, being able to tear away a limb isn't only related to the kinetic energy the round posses, but in a fair part to the way the shot 'delivers' energy to the target. Meaning, non-full-jacketed, hollow point or explosive rounds should be more capable of shredding soft tissue (wich means potentially delivering a partial or total amputation if fired to a joint, not so much impacting on a bone...), squashing or fragmenting after impact, while AP (jacketed or even heavy-cored for higher calibers) rounds can easily punch straight through (if not impacting on a bone) an unarmored and unprotected target, delivering only a portion of their kinetic energy and creating a more circumscribed wound. In the same way, an energy weapon, even not possessing an exceptionally great energy, will probably deliver a decent part of its energy to the target area.
As for the lasgun, let's pretend, for simplicity's sake, that the air is perfectly clean (so, no diffraction. About that, I always wondered why nothing in the fluff, except for something about ASL using autoguns, took that into account...) and that the target behaves as a perfect black body (so, no reflection or refraction), so that 100% of the energy is transferred to the target, and that heat flows in an overly strange manner (being immediatly conducted to the surrounding area, but remaining confined to the limb or joint). Let's suppose we need to vaporise about 1 kilo of tissue, with a mean heat capacity of 3.5 J/g*K, to destroy a neck or an elbow. We would need AT LEAST 270,000 joule just to heat the area to the vaporization temperature of water, than much more (about 1,300,000) just to evaporate its water content, thus practically depriving the tissue of cohesion.
That obviously is an oversemplification, as it would probably be enough to melt part of the tissue (this is gruesome), while heat transfer, as the blood vessels are welded shut by the blast, would be reduced to simple conduction, which would impair it a lot, meaning a smaller area (sq millimetres at best) around the impact point would be subject to the immediate damage. Some fancy effect of laser (ionization to plasma, induction, penetration depth...) have been ignored as well.
Anyway, a las bolt capable of blowing away a limb with a pulse would need a lot of energy. Or it should be a focalized, continous ray, like industrial laser cutters, vaporizing a really tiny portion of tissue along a line, thus effectively cutting the part away. Or maybe a less focalized beam, to heat a larger area, melting an entire joint over time.
Obviously, a las weapon will easily be lethal without needing to vaporize ample areas, just punching through and damaging vital organs or killing you through hydraulic shock, as already said.

edit:

They can be self-made in the Underhive for a start.

so (almost) can an AK-47, which is everything but ineffective... Anyway, I'm quite sure they use caseless bullets, making them at least a lot lighter and less prone to jamming.

Yes, stub weapons use case ammo, while auto weapons use caseless.

Authority?

Necromunda rulebook.
Previous to that, the RT rulebook and probably 2nd ed wargear book (since much of the weaponry for Necro was cribbed from it).

Caseless bullets are more prone to jamming because of the following reasons.

1. The lack of the metal casing requires the gun to resist much higher retained heat, which isn't carried away by the casing.

2. Uncased rounds are much more prone to wear, tear, and degradation in storage.

That's why they are only used by heavy artillery.

Kilkrazy wrote:Caseless bullets are more prone to jamming because of the following reasons.

1. The lack of the metal casing requires the gun to resist much higher retained heat, which isn't carried away by the casing.

2. Uncased rounds are much more prone to wear, tear, and degradation in storage.

That's why they are only used by heavy artillery.

And yet, the caseless ammo used by autoguns is LESS prone to jamming than the cased ammo used by stub weapons...

My guess, and this is just a guess here, is that they mastered the caseless ammo technology in the 38k years since.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Caseless bullets are more prone to jamming because of the following reasons.

1. The lack of the metal casing requires the gun to resist much higher retained heat, which isn't carried away by the casing.

2. Uncased rounds are much more prone to wear, tear, and degradation in storage.

That's why they are only used by heavy artillery.

That's true. Anyway, that also means less moving parts, which is always a good thing, as well as no case expulsion mechanism, which means a lot less dirt, mud and dust in the firing chamber. The only thing you need for 1 is a refractary (ceramic or composite) firing chamber or a good heat exchanging system (well, I know the ADMech seems not to be so good at those (see: plasma weaponry), but, anyway...), while 2 is easily countered with sealed magazines (development of caseless firearms is one of the possible subjects for my Mechanical Engineering thesis, so I'm deeply sorry if I seemed a little carried away...).

Kilkrazy wrote:Caseless bullets are more prone to jamming because of the following reasons.

1. The lack of the metal casing requires the gun to resist much higher retained heat, which isn't carried away by the casing.

2. Uncased rounds are much more prone to wear, tear, and degradation in storage.

That's why they are only used by heavy artillery.

... and several models of modern-day assault weapons around the world, especially for deployment to NATO forces.

Cased vs Caseless is, as far as the debate of ammunition goes, a back and forth thing. Both have advantages, both have drawbacks.

chromedog wrote:Necromunda rulebook.
Previous to that, the RT rulebook and probably 2nd ed wargear book (since much of the weaponry for Necro was cribbed from it).

And this source also states that autoguns are of a greater calibre and power than your average modern assualt rifle?

I'm not meaning to attack you here, chromedog, I just find these attempts to prove that autoguns (and therefore a lasguns) are capable of blowing off limbs to be a bit ridiculous.

In Gaunts Ghosts, the Las-guns have the power to blast open enemies on fullpower. They fire fully automatic, heavy beams that slice through opponents but drain ammo and can ruin the gun and magazine. On medium, normal setting, it causes severe burns, but not puncture wounds. Low is essentially just a flash-light.

And its unknown whether it has a recoil or not. Some say yes, others say no.

Emperors Faithful wrote: not meaning to attack you here, chromedog, I just find these attempts to prove that autoguns (and therefore a lasguns) are capable of blowing off limbs to be a bit ridiculous.

Are you saying that solid slug and energy based weapons are the same things?

And this is from Lexicanum: "It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine".

Probably can't blow them up in the meaning of word. But it can clearly detach them from the body if shot in the right place. But Lasshot is making mini explosions when it hit's the flesh, add normal or high setting and it can tear off limbs without a problem.

LastCameTheRaven wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Caseless bullets are more prone to jamming because of the following reasons.

1. The lack of the metal casing requires the gun to resist much higher retained heat, which isn't carried away by the casing.

2. Uncased rounds are much more prone to wear, tear, and degradation in storage.

That's why they are only used by heavy artillery.

That's true. Anyway, that also means less moving parts, which is always a good thing, as well as no case expulsion mechanism, which means a lot less dirt, mud and dust in the firing chamber. The only thing you need for 1 is a refractary (ceramic or composite) firing chamber or a good heat exchanging system (well, I know the ADMech seems not to be so good at those (see: plasma weaponry), but, anyway...), while 2 is easily countered with sealed magazines (development of caseless firearms is one of the possible subjects for my Mechanical Engineering thesis, so I'm deeply sorry if I seemed a little carried away...).

Guns firing caseless ammo need an extraction mechanism for when a round fails to fire.

Adding a heat exchange mechanism onto the gun means more parts and more things to go wrong. It makes the gun heavier, removing one of the advantages of caseless ammo.

Encapsulating the cartridges in sealed magazines means ammo is heavier and bulkier to carry, removing much of the advantage of it being caseless. It requires the gun or the soldier to carry an extra piece of equipment which he could lose or go wrong.

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote: not meaning to attack you here, chromedog, I just find these attempts to prove that autoguns (and therefore a lasguns) are capable of blowing off limbs to be a bit ridiculous.

Are you saying that solid slug and energy based weapons are the same things?

I've said no such thing, but what is obvious is that they're similar weapons in terms of effectiveness.

And this is from Lexicanum: "It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine".

Probably can't blow them up in the meaning of word. But it can clearly detach them from the body if shot in the right place. But Lasshot is making mini explosions when it hit's the flesh, add normal or high setting and it can tear off limbs without a problem.

Lexcanum hs demonstrated it has the relibility of hamster on crack.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Lexcanum hs demonstrated it has the relibility of hamster on crack.

Lexicanum also said that Marneus Calgar is current chapter master of the Ultramarines.
So this is false to?

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Lexcanum hs demonstrated it has the relibility of hamster on crack.

Lexicanum also said that Marneus Calgar is current chapter master of the Ultramarines.
So this is false to?

You can check that in the Asartes Codex.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I've said no such thing, but what is obvious is that they're similar weapons in terms of effectiveness.

No they are nor, Lasgun pack more punch than Autogun.
It is also stated on Lexicanum that Autoguns are slowly being replaced by Lasguns.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:
You can check that in the Asartes Codex.

Index Astartes III, page 56. "Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, leads his bodyguard against a deadly Tyranid attack."
So Lexicanum is reliable after all.

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I've said no such thing, but what is obvious is that they're similar weapons in terms of effectiveness.

No they are nor, Lasgun pack more punch than Autogun.

Bull. Sources indicate that solid shot weapons to more physical damage than lasguns. The lethality of lasgun is that, when the flesh is cauterised, the victim often goes straight into very serious shock, the pain threshold of living beings can't handle it.

EDIT: Enforcer, by Matthew Farrer is one example. The lasguns don't do as much physical damage to a deamonhost as the crewmember's solid-shot weapons.

It is also stated on Lexicanum that Autoguns are slowly being replaced by Lasguns.

Because they're easier to mass-manufacuter. That much is evident from the IG codex alone.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
You can check that in the Asartes Codex.

Index Astartes III, page 56. "Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, leads his bodyguard against a deadly Tyranid attack."
So Lexicanum is reliable after all.

Yeah, it's reliable enough (like how Wiki is reliable) when it's taking things straight from other, official, sources.

Not when it's making gak up.

EDIT 2: The "a" button on my laptop is buggered.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Yeah, it's reliable enough (like how Wiki is reliable) when it's taking things straight from other, official, sources.

Not when it's making gak up.

EDIT 2: The "a" button on my laptop is buggered.

True enough, but Wiki have a team of people who read articles daily and correcting various fan fiction. For example, I once wrote something on Wikipeda purely imagined. After 15 minutes I checked the text and it was corrected.
Same must be for Lexicanum, they must have these teams or everyone would start to question the reliability of it.

Brother Coa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Yeah, it's reliable enough (like how Wiki is reliable) when it's taking things straight from other, official, sources.

Not when it's making gak up.

EDIT 2: The "a" button on my laptop is buggered.

True enough, but Wiki have a team of people who read articles daily and correcting various fan fiction. For example, I once wrote something on Wikipeda purely imagined. After 15 minutes I checked the text and it was corrected. Same must be for Lexicanum, they must have these teams or everyone would start to question the reliability of it.

It can only be considered reliable when it references a reliable source. It, in itself, is not reliable source. Which is why you can't use Wiki in an assignment. Just because a team doesn't correct something on Lexicanum immediately doesn't mean we should take that piece of information as gospel. It might be the opinion of the team itself, but utterly unsupported by any official cannon.

Guns firing caseless ammo need an extraction mechanism for when a round fails to fire.

Adding a heat exchange mechanism onto the gun means more parts and more things to go wrong. It makes the gun heavier, removing one of the advantages of caseless ammo.

Encapsulating the cartridges in sealed magazines means ammo is heavier and bulkier to carry, removing much of the advantage of it being caseless. It requires the gun or the soldier to carry an extra piece of equipment which he could lose or go wrong.

As for requiring an extraction mechanism for unfired rounds, that is true. However, a hand or even electrically activated expulsion system has nothing to do, in terms of weight, number and complexity of mechanical parts, to a gas or mechanically operated extraction mechanism (heavier and bulkier, at least as it must survive action various times per second, as well as reutilizing recoil or combustion gas to be operated).
A heat exchanger isn't a 'mechanism', nor does it absolutely need a flux of fluid (even if that would undeniably make it more efficient); it could just be a plate or fin system (which, using magnesium or other similarly highly heat-conductive light materials, doesn't need to be exceptionally bulky or heavy) or even a simple electrically operated radiator, using Peltier effect.
As for sealed magazines, are you telling me any soldier would mainly bring non-magazined (low-caliber) bullets in a fight, thus having to put them one by one in the magazine while under fire? Sure, logistics branches will usually transport munitions to the theatre of operations outside of magazines, and soldiers will have some loose ammo in their packs (mainly for long-range recon or infiltration troopers, who, for long periods of time, will have limited access to supply lines), but a resin or hard foam magazine (you can generally use light, unexpensive materials to make them, but not, for obvious reasons, to make bullet cases) will hardly weigh down a soldier. You could even use form-fitting magazines, using softer, but equally resilient, resins or alloys (think something like AA battery packages) to reduce magazine volume, if needed, and remember that a far higher percentage of ammo's weight comes from casing, not from magazines.
Anyway,

Several models of caseless ammunition magazines are cheap, somewhat brittle, lightweight plastic and are entirely disposable once their ammunition payload is expended.

The self-loading mechanism on a modern gun does not clear jammed rounds. It is the firing of the round that supplies the mechanical work needed to eject the casing and load the next round. By definition a jammed round must be cleared by hand. (Except in externally powered revolving breech guns.)

A caseless gun must have a self-loading mechanism and some way to clear jammed rounds.

I don't think it is a good idea to stick cooling fins or a radiator on a rifle. It will endanger the firer, and it's more weight and bulk.

[spoiler]this is a stupid arguement that has gone on too long.[spoiler]

Vice_Grip wrote:

Spoiler:

A lasgun by itself is a club

Spoiler:

Modern assault rifle rounds will (if hit in the correct spot from the correct angle) remove limbs and shatter skulls

[spoiler]this is a stupid arguement that has gone on too long.[spoiler]

Our weapons are a club when compared to Lasgun.

With right round yes, Lasgun will do that in low or medium setting.

If you do noty like the thread, file complain with mods. If you don't want to do that, stop harrasing us and let us discuss.

The self-loading mechanism on a modern gun does not clear jammed rounds. It is the firing of the round that supplies the mechanical work needed to eject the casing and load the next round. By definition a jammed round must be cleared by hand.

That's what I said:

As for requiring an extraction mechanism for unfired rounds, that is true. However, a hand or even electrically activated expulsion system has nothing to do, in terms of weight, number and complexity of mechanical parts, to a gas or mechanically operated extraction mechanism (heavier and bulkier, at least as it must survive action various times per second, as well as reutilizing recoil or combustion gas to be operated).

(here I'm comparing casing ejection mechanism to a hand-operated mechanism whose only goal is that to permit jammed rounds extraction and therefore works only in that case).
As for cooling the firing chamber, the only problem a caseless weapon has is that of venting the excessive heat in the firing chamber, i.e. the heat generated by combustion is not so high the gun will burn your hands. So, once you have diverted the excessive heat to a very simple cooling sistem (let's say a row of 3 mm high fins along the barrel or the stock), that won't cause any potential danger, rising in temperature only by a few degrees each time you fire a long burst. If that doesn't convince you, you could assure the heat is spread to the whole weapon through an even simpler, piezoelectrically powered (using recoil or trigger pressure as a power source, so no additional batteries or mechanical parts), sistem using Peltier effect. If even that is not enough, I'll post the calculation required to show you the weight and bulk of the cooling system (assuming magnesium or aluminium-magnesium alloy are used) (no, I'm not trying to convince anyone to buy the NEW SUPER GUN OF DEATH, DESTRUCTION (death and destruction included only in the ProPackage) AND DOOM FULL OF SHINY BITZ AND DAKKA(tm) (for today only, with MOAR DAKKA )).



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