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One of my favorite chapters, when I started my Marine army I was going to make them Blood Ravens but switched before I began. Davian Thule is my favorite character in the 40k universe ever since Dark Crusade game out. Dark Crusade is what got me into 40k. Gabriel Angelos is also pretty BA. Just resently played kill teams on my 360 and was surprised but greatly delighted to find the Blood Ravens were playable skins. All in all my favorite chapter is still the Soul Drinkers but man if either of these got a codex I would never change even if they were outdated

What do you like about Davian Thule?

The main reason why I like Thule is that he shows human emotions, during the events on Kronos he knew he had to purge the planet which is why he tried to get the imperial forces to leave, and was resentful towards purging them but since the imperials stayed thy had to face 3 full companies of space marines. Even after the defeat of imperial forces by Davian and his brothers he let the survivors go and cleansed those who rebelled. To me he shows good leadership and is a skilled warrior. Haven't played much of Dow 2 so I don't know what happens to him in the campain besides finding out he gets implemented into dreadnought Armour.

Zakiriel wrote:Ah ok, so to each their own canon htj.

St. Celestine exhibited miraculous powers. She wasn't a summoned glowing daemon-like thing.

Just a couple points here:

The author himself has stated the "Blood Raven" divination in A Thousand Sons wasn't meant to be taken as, "Hey, guys, he's seeing the Blood Ravens in the future!" Also, A D-B has said, if I recall correctly, that GW is never going to clarify exactly where the Blood Ravens came from.

On that issue, though, having them as Thousand Sons successors retcons years upon years of established fluff: the Imperium doesn't stand up new chapters with "tainted" Traitor geneseed. There's just no need to do it. Need a chapter full of psykers? The Grey Knights pulled it off without using Thousand Sons' geneseed.

Seaward wrote:The author himself has stated the "Blood Raven" divination in A Thousand Sons wasn't meant to be taken as, "Hey, guys, he's seeing the Blood Ravens in the future!"

TheSGC wrote:I have one teeny little question: page 430 line 14 and onwards of "A Thousand Sons" has this line, which I found on Lexicanum and that I do remember reading explicitly. 'It's too late... the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne... no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!'

Ravens, ravens, ravens...was that a reference to the Blood Ravens, Mr. McNeill?

Graham McNeill wrote:Ah, well that would be telling, wouldn't it?

Make of it what you will... :-)

From here.

It also was before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre, where the Raven Guard were pretty much butchered by the Sons of Horus(Luna Wolves).

It's a carnival styled prophecy. It's vague, and anyone can see what they want out of it.

Seaward wrote:On that issue, though, having them as Thousand Sons successors retcons years upon years of established fluff: the Imperium doesn't stand up new chapters with "tainted" Traitor geneseed.

That's not a retcon. That the Imperium doesn't use traitor geneseed is not an important plot point; it's just an assumption that we make because we don't see the Imperium doing this. If Adeptus Astartes decided to do it, it would not be out of character: secret projects that reveal terrible truths? That's the name of the GrimDark game.

You guys have really got to sort out the difference between story development (where you learn about things that were previously not established, no matter what seemed reasonable to assume about it) and retconning (where there is a change in detail contrary to something that has in fact been established already).


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Kanluwen wrote:It's vague, and anyone can see what they want out of it.

Ravens of blood who are lost sons looking for knowledge? Yeah that could really be anything. It probably refers to the Ultramarines.

Manchu wrote:

Seaward wrote:On that issue, though, having them as Thousand Sons successors retcons years upon years of established fluff: the Imperium doesn't stand up new chapters with "tainted" Traitor geneseed.

That's not a retcon. That the Imperium doesn't use traitor geneseed is not an important plot point; it's just an assumption that we make because we don't see the Imperium doing this. If Adeptus Astartes decided to do it, it would not be out of character: secret projects that reveal terrible truths? That's the name of the GrimDark game.

The Adeptus Astartes has no access to traitor geneseed. Seriously, this has been a major "unchanged fact" for a long time.
The Traitor Legions, what geneseed of theirs is left, was locked away by the Emperor inside of a psy-locked vault that ONLY the Emperor can open. He's not going to be doing much opening

You guys have really got to sort out the difference between story development (where you learn about things that were previously not established, no matter what seemed reasonable to assume about it) and retconning (where there is a change in detail contrary to something that has in fact been established already).

Story Development would be that the Imperium found a way to cleanse the Thousand Sons genestock or that they have somehow found a way to 'create' psykers on the level of Spear.

Retconning would be the Imperium having Thousand Sons genestock, which was pretty much entirely destroyed when the Rubric of Ahriman(which according to the fluff turned all of the 'Lesser' members of the Thousand Sons into dust) went into effect with some of it POTENTIALLY being inside of the psy-locked vault that the Emperor has, floating around and someone created the Blood Ravens using it despite there being clear evidence that it's Thousand Sons genestock.


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Manchu wrote:Ravens of blood who are lost sons looking for knowledge? Yeah that could really be anything. It probably refers to the Ultramarines.

Gonna quote you something here.

A bloodstained hurricane swept across a desolate hillside, its furious roar a hundred thousand throats crying out in agony. Crimson winds turned to a raging inferno, setting all ablaze. The sky burned and a multitude of dark shapes flocked into the air, their wings alight sparks straining from their dark feathers. Dying shouts became the cawing of ravens, a rising cacophany that drowned out the wail of the storm.
...
Blood and fire, always the same, fire and blood.

What do you think that refers to?

Where is this fluff about the Emperor locking away geneseed in a vault only he can open coming from? Plus, how do you know that the Emperor is not still active in the world -- that's just your assumption, and I shouldn't have to remind you that the status of the Emperor is a hotly contested subject about which there is no final word in the fluff. IIRC, the Adpetus Astartes possesses the traitor geneseed. If they used it to create a chapter -- well, this does not contradict any established point. There is no retcon.


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Kanluwen wrote:What do you think that refers to?

My guess wouldn't be worth anything without more context.

Manchu wrote:Where is this fluff about the Emperor locking away geneseed in a vault only he can open coming from?

It's been in there for awhile, at least as long as I've been interested in 40k.

Plus, how do you know that the Emperor is not still active in the world -- that's just your assumption, and I shouldn't have to remind you that the status of the Emperor is a hotly contested subject about which there is no final word in the fluff.

Sure, it's possible the Emperor is still active in the world...but I can't see him opening up the box containing the literal Fruit of the Poisoned Tree.

IIRC, the Adpetus Astartes possesses the traitor geneseed.

They do not. The Adeptus Terra and the High Lords control the vault that has Traitor geneseed...but they can't open it.
The High Lords of Terra are what creates new Chapters, although they can be petitioned by the Astartes to create a new Chapter. It's how the Disciples of Caliban(yes, I'm using a link to Lexicanum. It's because I am not really too concerned with typing up the piece from the Dark Angels book right now) came about, and that specifically makes note of how the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels had to make a really strong case to have the Chapter formed.

If they used it to create a chapter -- well, this does not contradict any established point. There is no retcon.

Other than it's never been done, and the Adeptus Terra--which is the embodiment of the Emperor's will, cannot access the geneseed vault.

Kanluwen wrote:What do you think that refers to?

My guess wouldn't be worth anything without more context.

Which is the point I've been trying to make and always get shouted down about.

Prophecies are vague. The prophecy in question from "A Thousand Sons" happened before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre. Magnus tried to warn The Emperor about Istvaan, but was too late.

If you want it to read that it's definitive proof of Blood Ravens, you're going to see it as definitive proof of Blood Ravens. It's purposely worded like that.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:If they used it to create a chapter -- well, this does not contradict any established point. There is no retcon.

Other than it's never been done, and the Adeptus Terra--which is the embodiment of the Emperor's will, cannot access the geneseed vault.

On the vault business, we'll have to disagree. Assuming there is such a thing, there's nothing to prevent it from being opened by the Emperor so the whole point is moot. The bolded part is the real probelm: just because a thing has not happened before does not mean it happening is a retcon.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What do you think that refers to?

My guess wouldn't be worth anything without more context.

Which is the point I've been trying to make and always get shouted down about.

But I do have more context in the case of the "raven of blood" prophecy. I know who spoke it, I know about that character, I know about other developments thousands of years later that seem connected to it, I know about the common author as between two sources on the subject, I know that the author has not (contrary to what Seaward asserted) said that they are definitely not connected, and so on.

What you gave me was a couple of lines, period. Can't you see the difference?

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What do you think that refers to?

My guess wouldn't be worth anything without more context.

Which is the point I've been trying to make and always get shouted down about.

But I do have more context in the case of the "raven of blood" prophecy. I know who spoke it, I know about that character, I know about other developments thousands of years later that seem connected to it, I know about the common author as between two sources on the subject, I know that the author has not (contrary to what Seaward asserted) said that they are definitely not connected, and so on.

Yes, we know who spoke the "raven of blood" prophecy.

A human psyker, a Remembrancer, has the prophecy.

As usual though, people left off the part that DOESN'T aid the Blood Ravens angle.

It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne...no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!

Let's break it down.
-Wolf at the door can refer to either the Sons of Horus(Luna Wolves) OR Space Wolves. Given that Horus was referred to as "Lupercal", it's not a bad assumption to say it's Horus.
-The Ravens can sure, refer to the Blood Ravens...or the Raven Guard.
-"Cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"...the punishment fleet sent to Istvaan asked Horus why he betrayed the Emperor. He never says why. They try to redeem him, and beg him to repent...he refuses.
-"Brother betrayed, brother murdered". Ferrus Manus was killed by Fulgrim on Istvaan, his head presented to Horus as a trophy. We never know what happens to Vulkan aside from he somehow escapes and/or isn't killed there.
This one, of course, can also refer to Leman Russ and Magnus. If Russ was at Istvaan rather than Prospero, Ferrus wouldn't have been killed and Magnus betrayed by the Emperor.
-"The worst mistake" is that they thought that Magnus had gone renegade, and needed to be put down. The irony of it is that they thought that Horus was loyal, but Magnus the traitor.

What you gave me was a couple of lines, period. Can't you see the difference?

What I gave you was the opening to "Raven's Flight", the vision given to Marcus Valerius in his dreams, while Corax is fighting for his life on Istvaan and Valerius uses the vision to insist that they leave Deliverance undefended to retrieve Corax.


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I should also add that Graham McNeill, who wrote the Blood Ravens Index Astartes, has nothing at all inside of the Blood Ravens IA that suggests they are Successors of the Thousand Sons.

There is one mention of Magnus, and it's of puritans whispering of the tale of Magnus if the Blood Ravens don't stop acting like they know the future 100%.

My No.1 favorite Space Marines. They are all that Space Marines are: loyal, brave, reasonable and ready to give their life for the protection of the Emperor's people.

And characters are good to ( Gabriel, Tarkus, Thule, Apollo, Cyrus, Martelus... ). I hope to see more of them in games as well on table. I think they should get their own codex ( like chapter with largest number of librarians ).

Besides C.S. Goto and Boreale...they are awesome

@Kanluwen: Hold on: I'm not saying that the prophecy cannot refer to more than one set of events. I'm not even saying that the prophecy cannot refer to the Istvaan massacre. The point I'm arguing against is your assertion that there is no reason, or at least no good reason, to believe that the prophecy speaks to the Blood Ravens. It quite clearly could refer to the Blood Ravens.


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@Brother Coa: I'd like to see more development of particular SM characters in games and movies. I think that's a big draw of the Blood Ravens.

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: Hold on: I'm not saying that the prophecy cannot refer to more than one set of events. I'm not even saying that the prophecy cannot refer to the Istvaan massacre. The point I'm arguing against is your assertion that there is no reason, or at least no good reason, to believe that the prophecy speaks to the Blood Ravens. It quite clearly could refer to the Blood Ravens.

I think you're misunderstanding my assertion then.

The point I've tried to get across has pretty much been that the prophecy can be whatever people want it to be. It's purposefully vague.
The problem is that we originally had people all over the web posting JUST the line about "A Raven of Blood"(Which it's "a Raven of blood". Cite it right, or don't cite it jerks! ) when they got their books prior to the majority of readers.

It's not hard to put forth the argument that people were put into that mindset when they read it if someone had already said "It's about Blood Ravens!", don't you think?

Yes: but how were they put into that mindset? By another BL novel; by a GW-licensed video game series, and -- to some extent, though not explicitly -- by the very author of those same words.

Manchu wrote:Yes: but how were they put into that mindset? By another BL novel; by a GW-licensed video game series, and -- to some extent, though not explicitly -- by the very author of those same words.

By the same vein that people were originally arguing that Blood Ravens were a Blood Angels or Raven Guard Successor?

People see "Raven of blood" and scream "BLOOD RAVENS!" like they've solved some great mystery of the universe.

Sure, saying "it's absolutely solved" is ridiculous at this point. But the case is built up pretty well and I think the best point in this thread is H.B.M.C. reminding us that the real mystery is "in-universe" rather than for the fans.

Really?

An example of the "in-universe" mystery is where Lion El'Jonson is. The Dark Angels don't know, the Imperium doesn't know.

Only we, and the Watchers in the Dark, know.

The case for Thousand Sons is really tentative and built upon a lot of assumptions and retcons at this point, and every 'definitive' piece of evidence just raises more and more questions.

htj wrote:Don't like 'em. Don't like their name, don't like their similar appearance to the Blangles, don't like their silly 1K Sons back-story, don't like their poncey scout sergeant with his emo haircut. Don't like 'em, won't have 'em.

If there's one thing in 40k I will be utterly unreasonable about, it's these beggars. But fortunately I don't regard the games as canon, so they don't exist.

Page 112 of the 5th ed Space Marine Codex... MUAHAHAHAHA!

I like the BRs just fine, kinda hard to imagine that they won't get pwned by the Inquisition now, though, I mean the DAs must have some logical reason for being terrified of people finding out that their legion did much the same thing as what happened to the BRs.

Henners91 wrote:

htj wrote:Don't like 'em. Don't like their name, don't like their similar appearance to the Blangles, don't like their silly 1K Sons back-story, don't like their poncey scout sergeant with his emo haircut. Don't like 'em, won't have 'em.

If there's one thing in 40k I will be utterly unreasonable about, it's these beggars. But fortunately I don't regard the games as canon, so they don't exist.

Page 112 of the 5th ed Space Marine Codex... MUAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, there was way too much fanfic in that 'dex. Man, that Mary Sue story about the Ultramarines? Terrible.

I like The Blood Ravens, they add a bit of flavor to the horde of Marines that seem to flood the tabeltop, and besides. They have their own vide game series, what more do I need?

I dont hate them anymore then I hate any other marine chapter

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?

No. IIRC, Dan and Graham switched which books they were working on -- so Graham ended up with the 1ksons. They did this because they thought they were better suited to the other's assignment. Hmm . . .

I think they stated writing them at the same time and they were actually supposed to come out at the same time but Abnett came down with a small bout of...epilepsy.

Anyway, I like the Blood Ravens. Good name, good look to them. New background is always good. Haven't played DoW2 so I know there's something fishy about them...
I like how different companies working with GW seem to make their own pet chapters. Relic has the Blood Ravens and FW has the Red Scorpions.

As the poll selections are comments, not selections... They were invented purely to sell the games - bottom line.

-J.

I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between "comments" and "selections." I'll use your comment as an example: they were only designed to sell a product. Fine but that is true of every single Chapter that has been published in a GW or GW-licensed book/audiobook/movie/videogame/whatever. That doesn't really explain how you feel about Blood Ravens as opposed to Space Wolves or Word Bearers or Bad Moons or Craftworld Ulthwe or the Cadian 88th Armored Regiment, either as "characters" in a story or even as products.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?

No. IIRC, Dan and Graham switched which books they were working on -- so Graham ended up with the 1ksons. They did this because they thought they were better suited to the other's assignment. Hmm . . .

I think they stated writing them at the same time and they were actually supposed to come out at the same time but Abnett came down with a small bout of...epilepsy.

Indeed. They were supposed to be released at the same time as a 'one-two punch', but Abnett had a scary experience and was diagnosed with epilepsy. It also pushed back pretty much everything he was working on, like "Salvation's Reach". That's why we ended up getting "The Sabbat Worlds" compilation. It was something that let him, from what I remember him talking about, 'ease' himself back into writing.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?

No. IIRC, Dan and Graham switched which books they were working on -- so Graham ended up with the 1ksons. They did this because they thought they were better suited to the other's assignment. Hmm . . .

I think they stated writing them at the same time and they were actually supposed to come out at the same time but Abnett came down with a small bout of...epilepsy.

Indeed. They were supposed to be released at the same time as a 'one-two punch', but Abnett had a scary experience and was diagnosed with epilepsy. It also pushed back pretty much everything he was working on, like "Salvation's Reach". That's why we ended up getting "The Sabbat Worlds" compilation. It was something that let him, from what I remember him talking about, 'ease' himself back into writing.

Wait what? I didn't know about that.

Blood Ravens are GW canon SM chapter.
To say otherwise is silly and verges on Heresy.
(The Eagles, "Get over it!")