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It would be awesome to see a Blood Ravens codex. I've always liked them because they were the reason I got into 40k. I had never heard of 40k before I played the very first Dawn of War game. The novels are meh, but they are a good chapter in anything that isn't the novels Goto wrote.

I never really had a problem with the BR just wish the games wouldn't compleyely revolve around them and would be nice if they just finish fleshin out there history in stead it is just unknown where they come from. To me thats a freakin cop out for we are lazy and don't wanna write it

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Blood Ravens are not 100% psykers.

Actually, what we know is that they aren't 100% librarians. The Blood Ravens' individual psychic capacities may in fact be greater than the average Space Marine.

Actually we do. The Index Astartes article that everyone loves to cite about being "clear and irrefutable evidence" of the Blood Ravens being Successors of the Thousand Sons or that "GW was clearly planning on doing this, even as early as 2004" has only one part that talks about the psykers themselves. Page 119, right above the "Home World" heading.

Graham McNeill's Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens wrote:
One of the most remarkable aspects of the Blood Ravens is the large number of Librarians within the Chapter, each exceptionally powerful. Whether the number and power of Blood Raven Librarians can be attributed to the Great Father's tutelage or a tradition of reverence that encourages the Chapter members to follow his example is unknown. Neither reason, however, fully explains how the Blood Ravens manage to cultivate such a high number of Psykers within their ranks or how they raise their power to such high levels.

Seems fairly definitive about a link to the Thousand Sons, yeah?

Well it's not, because on page 117 we get the excerpt on Force Commander Angelos which actually explains, pretty well, how they had "such a high number of Psykers within their ranks". Here you go.

Some considered the Blood Ravens' practice of selecting youths from Cyrene unusual due to the markedly higher proportion of mutant births among the populace. Though such abominations were swiftly cleansed and burned, it soon became clear that these incidences of mutation were linked to a sudden rise in nascent Psykers emerging. Such a vast number of unprotected Psykers could only lead to trouble, and such was to prove the case when the Blood Ravens returned to Cyrene to look for new recruits. Now a respected and courageous captain in the Chapter, Gabriel Angelos descended to the planet's surface and began the selection process. The Blood Trials were cut short, however, when Angelos returned to his Strike Cruiser and transmitted a secure Astropathic communique to an unknown location.

The biggest part in question that caused such controversy and gave so much credence to the theory that Goto espoused with his line of Ahriman calling a Blood Raven "Brother"(because clearly, no Traitor Astartes has ever done that to a Loyalist...) is page 119 of August 2004's White Dwarf under the "Combat Doctrine" heading.

Graham McNeill's Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens wrote:
In battle, the Blood Ravens destroy enemy units with utter ruthlessness and precision. The Chapter's battle plan never varies from initial concept to final execution. Such is the depth of planning and thoroughness that every eventuality is accounted for, thanks to their Librarians' uncanny ability to predict how their enemies will react. The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings.

That's the ONLY mention of Magnus and/or the Thousand Sons, in the entirety of the IA article.

However, fun fact, on the next page there's a part that says "The Blood Angel's quest for knowledge echoes many tenents of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Chapter maintains close ties with the Priests of the Machine God and often joins forces with their fleets of Explorators in their conquest of the unknown quarters of the galaxy." Of course it's a typo, but it also led to more of the "Blood Angels" speculation as well.

And even if they are not, it makes sense that Adeptus Terra would not have created a Chapter from 1ksons stock without giving it a few tweaks. Like curbing their psychic powers to dull the flesh change problems, for example?

Then why the heck would you use the Thousand Sons genestock? Seriously, the ONLY thing that they Thousand Sons were notable for is the psychic ability, which was spawned by Magnus' genestock. If you breed out the flesh change--the psychic powers go away.

We simply don't know this yet, one way or the other -- therefore no retcon is necessary. You've got retconning confused with story development.

What "story development" is there really to be had when you take a genestock known for mutations, instability, and psychic prowess...and then breed out the flaws and the benefits?

You might as well just make them Iron Hands Successors in that case.

Really. I know that a lot of people like the idea, but if it were the Word Bearers to be the primogenitors for the Blood Ravens---it would be making people rage. The only reason Thousand Sons get all these excuses made up for why it would be awesome/cool/whatever is because the Thousand Sons are somewhat likeable.

They were betrayed, essentially victims of a slander campaign by their own brothers to prevent them from stopping the Heresy from coming about.

I can't imagine they will reveal the origins of the Blood Ravens, as Kan's doing an admirable/unrelenting job of pointing out, there's a lot of things that could prevent them from being Thousand Sons predecessors such as the Flesh Change and 100% psykers, however there have also been lots of hints over the years that the (actually/past loyal) Thousand Sons did provide their geneseed. Personally, I think they'll just drop these hints in for various theories every now and then and not reveal it because of the interest (and repetitive threads in 40K background) it creates - it's just another reason for people to play Blood Ravens and you know what GW are like with the whole mystery thing...

---

As for my opinion on Blood Ravens; they're OK. Nothing special in my books, but I have no reason to dislike them either.

I think they're rather interesting because there are so many psykers ("psionically gifted individuals")in their ranks and because they seem to be descended from the Thousand Sons in some way (they are after knowledge). This, to me, is interesting because the Thousand Sons were declased excommunicate traitoris after the heresy.

If GW made rules for them, I think they would have to be able to take captains and chapters masters with psychic powers.

@Kanluwen:

You seem to think that recruiting potential psykers means that their geneseed can have nothing to do with their unusually potent librarians. But why not? A psyker recruited into the Ultramarines can become a Librarian -- a "normal" Librarian, if you will accept the term. But a psyker initiated as a Blood Raven can become more powerful that that "normal" librarian. What are the possibilities?

(1) the Blood Raven recruit was a more powerful psyker before recruitment

(2) the Blood Raven geneseed is different from Ultramarine geneseed in a way that makes psykers more potent

The second option is far more plausible: after all, it's not just one or two of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out. Option (1) could explain Tigurius but not a chapter in which every Librarian is a potential Tigurius.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Blood Ravens are not 100% psykers.

Actually, what we know is that they aren't 100% librarians. The Blood Ravens' individual psychic capacities may in fact be greater than the average Space Marine. And even if they are not, it makes sense that Adeptus Terra would not have created a Chapter from 1ksons stock without giving it a few tweaks. Like crubing their psychic powers to dull the flesh change problems, for example? We simply don't know this yet, one way or the other -- therefore no retcon is necessary. You've got retconning confused with story development.

yep I agree with this.
Not much you can do if there isn't that much on the blood ravens yet.

There's nothing wrong with the Blood Ravens TBH. It's a decentish chapter with a very dark past and lots of problems. That and Angelos is badass for a Commander

Ah ok, so to each their own canon htj.

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen:

You seem to think that recruiting potential psykers means that their geneseed can have nothing to do with their unusually potent librarians. But why not? A psyker recruited into the Ultramarines can become a Librarian -- a "normal" Librarian, if you will accept the term. But a psyker initiated as a Blood Raven can become more powerful that that "normal" librarian. What are the possibilities?

Even the most potent Blood Ravens Librarian, with the descriptions we've had of them, are seemingly on par with the "potent" Librarians of the other Chapters.

The other thing to remember is that those other Chapters don't have a tower where they keep Librarians who lose control of their powers and become possessed, horribly warped, or any number of things.
The Blood Ravens, who recruited from a tainted source that was destroyed by the Inquisition, do.

(1) the Blood Raven recruit was a more powerful psyker before recruitment

(2) the Blood Raven geneseed is different from Ultramarine geneseed in a way that makes psykers more potent

The second option is far more plausible: after all, it's not just one or two of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out.

Name some of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out.

For a Chapter that has as much background as they do, with so many supposedly powerful Librarians--very few are actually named.

Option (1) could explain Tigurius but not a chapter in which every Librarian is a potential Tigurius.

Considering the number of psykers tapered off after the Extermination of Cyrene(according to DOWII and its expansions, at least)...yeah, Option 1 is the way to go.

Seriously. There's a lot that points to Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons Successors...but just as much that doesn't add up.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen:

You seem to think that recruiting potential psykers means that their geneseed can have nothing to do with their unusually potent librarians. But why not? A psyker recruited into the Ultramarines can become a Librarian -- a "normal" Librarian, if you will accept the term. But a psyker initiated as a Blood Raven can become more powerful that that "normal" librarian. What are the possibilities?

Even the most potent Blood Ravens Librarian, with the descriptions we've had of them, are seemingly on par with the "potent" Librarians of the other Chapters.

The other thing to remember is that those other Chapters don't have a tower where they keep Librarians who lose control of their powers and become possessed, horribly warped, or any number of things.
The Blood Ravens, who recruited from a tainted source that was destroyed by the Inquisition, do.

(1) the Blood Raven recruit was a more powerful psyker before recruitment

t(2) the Blood Raven geneseed is different from Ultramarine geneseed in a way that makes psykers more potent

The second option is far more plausible: after all, it's not just one or two of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out.

Name some of the Blood Raven Librarians that stand out.

For a Chapter that has as much background as they do, with so many supposedly powerful Librarians--very few are actually named.

Option (1) could explain Tigurius but not a chapter in which every Librarian is a potential Tigurius.

Considering the number of psykers tapered off after the Extermination of Cyrene(according to DOWII and its expansions, at least)...yeah, Option 1 is the way to go.

Seriously. There's a lot that points to Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons Successors...but just as much that doesn't add up.

It never ends well. Or adds up well

Because it's not supposed to.

It's meant to be some kind of great big mystery in 40k, like the Lost Legions.

Kanluwen wrote:Because it's not supposed to.

It's meant to be some kind of great big mystery in 40k, like the Lost Legions.

yeah but its a chapter made by a major company.....

And?

Blood Ravens are cool. They really are just another codex chapter though

Kanluwen wrote:And?

it will never make any more lore.

@Kanluwen: The most illustrious figure in their history was a librarian. The fact is that we don't know many of their stories, period. It doesn't mean those stories aren't there. You're saying that the Blood Ravens do indeed more regularly have more powerful psykers than other chapters but it doesn't matter because they aren't all librarians or because there are not more named characters that are librarians? That's a strange line of argument.

I mean it's a very simple matter of addition:

Pskyer (1) + average Space Marine geneseed (0) = Librarian

vs.

Psyker (1) + Blood Raven geneseed (1) = more potent Librarian (2)

The drop off of psykers is just that: a drop off of psykers. It has nothing to do with whether or not the Blood Raven geneseed makes for better Librarians than run-of-the-mill Ultra-geneseed.

Plus, the "coincidences" are far too striking for it not to add up: the Cult of Corvidae specialized in prognostication and the Blood Ravens are famous for knowing what their enemies will do before it happens? Yes, some people need a shovel-to-the-head kind of statement: "yes, the Blood Ravens are indeed a successor to the Thousand Sons. Hugs & kisses, Graham McN." But the writing is on the wall for those with eyes to see.

For example:

Kanluwen wrote:The other thing to remember is that those other Chapters don't have a tower where they keep Librarians who lose control of their powers and become possessed, horribly warped, or any number of things. The Blood Ravens, who recruited from a tainted source that was destroyed by the Inquisition, do.

I mean, who does that remind you of? Although you'll have to explain what tainted means, other than mutation -- and please keep in mind that every single psyker is a mutant by technical definition.

Even the parts that don't "add up" lend to the truth of it: obviously, it might cause a bit of the stir if the Blood Ravens found out about their past. That's why those who have found out (Davian Thule) have deliberately covered it up .

Not a big fan of the Goto stuff. I liked the first game (and them in it), but so far that's been about it.

I'm starting to understand why people warned me away from ever arguing fluff with the Kan... sheesh...

Kanluwen wrote:It's meant to be some kind of great big mystery in 40k, like the Lost Legions.

No it's not. Where do you get the idea that the Blood Raven's history is meant to be a mystery like the 2nd and 11th Legion problem?

It's a mystery for the Chapter, not for the audience. As the readers we're meant to basically know that the Blood Ravens are the remnants of loyalist 1KSons (or derived from the Geneseed - it really doesn't matter either way), but the narrative is that they don't know. It's like a murder procedural show where the audience knows who the killer is right from the start and the story is about how the detectives find out.

Jimsolo wrote:Not a big fan of the Goto stuff. I liked the first game (and them in it), but so far that's been about it.

Goto is a horrible writer and he should not be credited in making the blood ravens.
If we had someone better like ben counter write we would not be debating this at all.

That's a bit ironic, A.C., as Counter takes a lot of gak for his GK work.

@H.B.M.C: Thanks for that, quite neat.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm starting to understand why people warned me away from ever arguing fluff with the Kan... sheesh...

I take fluff very seriously. Background is what I enjoy the most about 40k, and I've been doing my best to piece together 'reliable' sources and 'sensible' stuff versus over the top shenanigans.

It gives me something to do when I'd otherwise be bored senseless.

Kanluwen wrote:It's meant to be some kind of great big mystery in 40k, like the Lost Legions.

No it's not. Where do you get the idea that the Blood Raven's history is meant to be a mystery like the 2nd and 11th Legion problem?

Gee...let's see, because until recently there was nothing remotely that could be pointed at as 'definitive'(and even THAT is subjective. The tie of the Corvidae Cult, which didn't exist during the IA article written in 2004, is a tenuous one that is just too easy to spot)?

You make a point in this next part about a procedural cop drama, and that's not a bad way to think about it. However, like a procedural there will always be the "obvious suspect"(Thousand Sons) who is in reality being framed and then we get the cliffhanger season finale and have to wait for it to be picked back up.

It's a mystery for the Chapter, not for the audience. As the readers we're meant to basically know that the Blood Ravens are the remnants of loyalist 1KSons (or derived from the Geneseed - it really doesn't matter either way), but the narrative is that they don't know.

The narrative is actually that NO ONE knows. Index Astartes, in the omniscient audience portions even, make a point that no one knows and that there's more answers then questions.

To quote...
"The Blood Ravens' gene-seed is relatively stable, though the high proportion of Psykers in the Blood Ravens ranks has resulted in their gene-seed tithe being tested on a more regular basis than most. Thus far, there has been little evidence of mutation and nothing that points to the gene-seed as the source of the Blood Ravens' disproportionate number of Psykers or the high level of power they exhibit.

There has been much speculation about which of the Founding Chapters the Blood Ravens' gene-seed was derived. Both the Blood Angels and Raven Guard have been suggested, but these speculations are likely based simply on the similarity in names between the Chapters. Rumor has also persisted that the Blood Ravens may be derived from the Dark Angels gene-seed, but no facts have ever been presented to established a definitive single source of the genetic material that makes up the Chapter."

There's a bit more, talking about how the Blood Ravens origin is something that they seek over anything else in their search for knowledge.

It's like a murder procedural show where the audience knows who the killer is right from the start and the story is about how the detectives find out.

Like I said, this isn't a bad way to think about it. But don't think of it as a murder procedural.

Think of it like Burn Notice's plot, spanning from S1 to 4.

The more clues we get, the closer we think to having unraveled the mystery...and the more questions that get raised because we also have pieces that looked so reliable and don't fit.

Manchu wrote:The drop off of psykers is just that: a drop off of psykers. It has nothing to do with whether or not the Blood Raven geneseed makes for better Librarians than run-of-the-mill Ultra-geneseed.

And as I said earlier, if the gene-seed is stable enough to prevent the flesh change...then they're not going to have powerful psykers in all likelihood. The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.

Plus, the "coincidences" are far too striking for it not to add up: the Cult of Corvidae specialized in prognostication and the Blood Ravens are famous for knowing what their enemies will do before it happens?

You know who else is famous for knowing what their enemies will do before it happens?
-The Eldar.
-The Emperor.
-The Tau, through the Water Caste.
-The Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and more through their usage of Scouts and Librarians both.

The level of foresight the Blood Ravens have is seemingly unusual, sure. But(and there's a big one here) it's not actually that uncommon. It's all about the skeins of fate and reading the signs properly.

It also doesn't look so great when you realize that Azariah Vidya, the Great Father of the Blood Ravens, spent months studying the enemy's movements, tactics, and even their histories in addition to his divinations.

Yes, some people need a shovel-to-the-head kind of statement: "yes, the Blood Ravens are indeed a successor to the Thousand Sons. Hugs & kisses, Graham McN." But the writing is on the wall for those with eyes to see.

Which is another reason I don't trust it. McNeill had said at one point that he didn't want them to be confined to one thing or another.

If I had to, 100% ballpark what McNeill's plans are...

I would say that he's not going to have the Blood Ravens being derived from any one Legion. They're going to be feasibly derived from as many Legions as possible with their gene-seed.

I mean, who does that remind you of? Although you'll have to explain what tainted means, other than mutation -- and please keep in mind that every single psyker is a mutant by technical definition.

Every single is a mutant by technical definition, but they don't become gibbering monsters when simply utilizing their powers(which the Thousand Sons had happen to them) in a great many cases. It's when they lose control of their powers or push themselves too far, too often.

The "tainted" part is kind of sketchy. It doesn't say hardly anything on it, just talking about a place they have on their Battle Barge, the Omnis Arcanum, which they call "The Tower". Failed Librarian candidates are taken there and studied, to see what failed and how it can be prevented in the next candidate.

Is it possible the Blood ravens could have their geneseed engineered so that it shares similarities to the dark angels and the thousand sons?
And instead of a flesh change they get very bad luck.
And dark angels have similar problems half of their chapter goes rouge etc.

Asherian Command wrote:
And dark angels have similar problems half of their chapter goes rogue etc.

You keep bringing this up.

Yet, you keep failing to recognize the reason for it. It wasn't a defect in the gene-seed. It was a betrayal, pure and simple.

Luther and those who returned to Caliban(which wasn't half of the Legion. It was a Chapter, of which only half went Rogue...but they took the newest Initiates to the Legion with them) felt they had been shunned by The Lion and the Imperium.

They decided to secede from the Imperium as a result, heeding Luther and his cadre, who had been training them and indoctrinating them through his own version of the "Inner Circle".

Kanluwen wrote:The tie of the Corvidae Cult, which didn't exist during the IA article written in 2004, is a tenuous one that is just too easy to spot

Wat.

So it simply makes too much sense? Keep in mind that the author of the IA article and the author of Propsero Burns are one and the same. Yes, too much sense.

Kanluwen wrote:The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.

Throne on Terra, it's like you don't even remember your own posts. Which is it -- they exhibit no signs of the flesh change or they lock up their librarians for getting all warped and possessed? And guess what -- it's the librarians. Now what was it you just said about a 'trade off' between flesh change and psychic ability?

Don't worry, I quoted it above. Read it nine times -- a significant number that -- nine times until you finally grasp that you're only arguing with yourself. I believe it was H.B.M.C. who once told me (and I paraphrase) "if you're not going to read my posts, at least read your own posts."

I don't buy the idea of Blood Ravens being genemutts. To me, it makes much more sense that Ahriman himself had a hand in the founding of the Blood Ravens.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The tie of the Corvidae Cult, which didn't exist during the IA article written in 2004, is a tenuous one that is just too easy to spot

Wat.

So it simply makes too much sense? Keep in mind that the author of the IA article and the author of Propsero Burns are one and the same. Yes, too much sense.

Kanluwen wrote:The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.

Throne on Terra, it's like you don't even remember your own posts. Which is it -- they exhibit no signs of the flesh change or they lock up their librarians for getting all warped and possessed? And guess what -- it's the librarians. Now what was it you just said about a 'trade off' between flesh change and psychic ability?

Don't worry, I quoted it above. Read it nine times -- a significant number that -- nine times until you finally grasp that you're only arguing with yourself. I believe it was H.B.M.C. who once told me (and I paraphrase) "if you're not going to read my posts, at least read your own posts."

I don't buy the idea of Blood Ravens being genemutts. To me, it makes much more sense that Ahriman himself had a hand in the founding of the Blood Ravens.

Hell Ahriman's Apperentice i forget his name could be Azariah.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The tie of the Corvidae Cult, which didn't exist during the IA article written in 2004, is a tenuous one that is just too easy to spot

Wat.

So it simply makes too much sense? Keep in mind that the author of the IA article and the author of Propsero Burns are one and the same. Yes, too much sense.

Dan Abnett wrote "Prospero Burns".

Graham McNeill wrote "A Thousand Sons".

Let's not forget however there's a six year gap.
So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?

Kanluwen wrote:The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.

Throne on Terra, it's like you don't even remember your own posts. Which is it -- they exhibit no signs of the flesh change or they lock up their librarians for getting all warped and possessed? And guess what -- it's the librarians. Now what was it you just said about a 'trade off' between flesh change and psychic ability?
Don't worry, I quoted it above. Read it nine times -- a significant number that -- nine times until you finally grasp that you're only arguing with yourself. I believe it was H.B.M.C. who once told me (and I paraphrase) "if you're not going to read my posts, at least read your own posts."

If you're going to quote, quote it all.

And as I said earlier, if the gene-seed is stable enough to prevent the flesh change...then they're not going to have powerful psykers in all likelihood. The flesh change was the 'trade off' for Magnus' progeny and their psychic ability.

The Flesh Change is something that happened to Magnus' progeny, no matter what. If it hadn't been for his 'deal', then every single one of them would have been affected by it. Remember how there was talk of it affecting them all before they found Magnus?
Yeaaah. Every single one of them, with some being able to control or suppress it.

The Blood Ravens' Librarian Initiates are the ones taken to The Tower, if they fail the tests to ascend to membership in the Librarium. They aren't just locking Librarians up all willy-nilly, it's those who fail the tests and are overcome by their power. This isn't restricted to the Blood Ravens either, if the Index Astartes article on Librarians is to be believed.

Oh, the ones taken to The Tower also can't be the ones who die in agony during the testing or are swiftly executed as 'potential conduits for warp creatures'. They have to be those who fail the testing, but are 'so ravaged by it that they are no longer sane, or in some cases, even humanoid. These poor, unfortunate individuals are taken in warded chains to a shuttered, lonely place on the Omnis Arcanum known simply as "The Tower" where the failures are studied by the Chapter's Librarians to understand why the aspirants failed and what might be done to train and hone the minds of those who are yet to be tested'.

This line of argument is my own fault though, because I can't be bothered to write up the entire article right now and am quoting it in bits and pieces.

I don't buy the idea of Blood Ravens being genemutts. To me, it makes much more sense that Ahriman himself had a hand in the founding of the Blood Ravens.

...Yes, because he called them "Brother"!!!11!!11!!!11!!

All honesty, Ahriman can have as much of a hand as he wants in it. He still royally screwed the pooch with his Rubric.

Edit was because I forgot to finish my thought on the first paragraph.

I personally like to separate the DoW Storyline from the fluff. They are after all, very different things.

As a chapter, the Blood Ravens are alright, but only because of Gabriel's voice. I'd go gay for that voice.

Simply just a filler chapter so they could create a video game that wouldnt piss any one off by favouriting another chapter like using a the Ultramarines or what ever.

Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that SIX YEARS before he knew he'd be the one writing the background of the Thousand Sons, out of all the authors working on the Horus Heresy?

No. IIRC, Dan and Graham switched which books they were working on -- so Graham ended up with the 1ksons. They did this because they thought they were better suited to the other's assignment. Hmm . . .