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So. I know a lot of folks hate the polls but I'd really like to see what Dakkanauts think about the Blood Ravens -- a chapter that made it into 40k canon via video games. With 40k expanding more and more into video games, and even movies, we'll probably see more of the universe developed via those media rather than solely in codices and BL novels. So how are they doing so far?

They're okay.

Topic says Blood Angels, poll is about Blood Ravens. I'm confused.

I don't particularly care for either.

So am I, apparently. Fixed!

Any of you chaps care to elaborate?

First of all, you'll be wanting to get the title straight. Blood Angels is in the thread title.

To the point, Blood Ravens are cool because even though I have never played ANY 40k computer games, Blood Ravens represent something new. Also, the have an implied connection to Magnus's geneseed and that is awesome. Thousand sons are an awesome chapters and BR would make for a worthy successor.


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Ninja'd.

I have a dislike of them simply because they originate from a video game...don't ask me why, just my opinion on the matter. Maybe I'm also tired of marines in general and would like to see a greater focus on the Xenos and their sub-cultures, like more Eldar craftworld and aspect warrior fluff or Ork warbands.

AesSedai wrote:Also, they have an implied connection to Magnus's geneseed and that is awesome. Thousand sons are an awesome chapters and BR would make for a worthy successor.

I think this is pretty interesting and it does tread new water, AFAIK. I'd like to learn more about them but I think they are THQ's baby. So unless they move on from Ultramarines (I also like them, TBH), we might never know more about them.

As long as you ignore the Goto books, they're fine. I like them.

You reckon any SCs might appear in C:SM 6th? I'd personally be shocked.

Oh, and how would you build them in Deathwatch, H.B.M.C.?

I like their color scheme, bone and red, quite striking and simple, i may consider collecting them on the table top.

Manchu wrote:You reckon any SCs might appear in C:SM 6th? I'd personally be shocked.

To be honest...one kind of already did. Sergeant Telion is, for all intents and purposes, Sergeant Cyrus just rebranded for the Ultramarines.

Oh, and how would you build them in Deathwatch, H.B.M.C.?

There's nothing particularly special about the Blood Ravens that would make them any different from Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, or any of the Chapters already in existence for Deathwatch.

They have 'higher than average' amounts of Librarians and some of them are 'more powerful than normal'.

As for the Chapter themselves...

I don't particularly mind them. The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.

I expect them to get their own codex eventually because profitability dictates that it must be so when you have shareholders.

Fluff wise, they were cool until Retribution, and maybe Chaos Rising.

The whole chapter is renegade, you say? Great... still, at least they have some good concepts and I think they're a fine chapter.

Wurs mah kodecks?!

They have a special place in my heart because they were one of my first experiences with Space Marines.

I know a couple of folks that play BR armies. Other than their predilection for librarians, they're a straight up Codex chapter, so as far as actual game mechanics, "counts as vanilla marines" is the rule of the day...

As an aside, I've also seen a couple of people play them as "counts as Blood Angels." Weird, if you ask me...

Kanluwen wrote:Sergeant Telion is, for all intents and purposes, Sergeant Cyrus just rebranded for the Ultramarines.

Other than the minor detail that he isn't.

Kanluwen wrote:There's nothing particularly special about the Blood Ravens that would make them any different from Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, or any of the Chapters already in existence for Deathwatch.

That wasn't what he asked. You could very easily get a 'Successor Chapter' style-box for the Blood Ravens without much trouble. They'd just be Ultramarines as far as rules go, but to emphasise their unique ability would be either:

1. A permanent -10/-15/-20 to the Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp Chart (whichever was more balanced out of those three)
...or...
2. May change the result on the Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp Chart by up to their WPB.
...or...
3. May change the result on the Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp Chart by up to their Psy-Rating.

And that's the only rule I'd give 'em.

Kanluwen wrote:The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.

You're the only person I've ever seen who said that would require a 'retcon' to make it work. Most people just go "Cool! Loyalist 1KSons successors!"

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.

You're the only person I've ever seen who said that would require a 'retcon' to make it work. Most people just go "Cool! Loyalist 1KSons successors!"

Yep. This fact befuddles me to this day.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:You reckon any SCs might appear in C:SM 6th? I'd personally be shocked.

To be honest...one kind of already did. Sergeant Telion is, for all intents and purposes, Sergeant Cyrus just rebranded for the Ultramarines.

C:SM 5th released in October 2008. Dawn of War 2 released in February 2009. "Now pay attention, Kanluwen!" /Desmond Llewelyn impression


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odh1nn wrote:As an aside, I've also seen a couple of people play them as "counts as Blood Angels." Weird, if you ask me...

Yeah, I don't think that makes any sense at all.


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djphranq wrote:They have a special place in my heart because they were one of my first experiences with Space Marines.

Very true -- a whole generation, perhaps, of 40k fans saw the Blood Ravens before ever laying eyes on an Ultramarine, Blood Angel, or Space Wolf.


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H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.

You're the only person I've ever seen who said that would require a 'retcon' to make it work. Most people just go "Cool! Loyalist 1KSons successors!"

I'm puzzled by Kanluwen's comment here, too. No retcon is necessary. It's not hard to believe that Adpetus Terra preserved the genetic record of all the Primarchs. The only explanation -- NOT retcon -- necessary is as to why the Blood Ravens aren't subject to the mutations that plagued the 1ksons before Magnus did his deal with the Ruinous Powers.

I think they're a great chapter that has a good foundation to build on. If they were ever to get their own codex I would build an army without hesitation.

Manchu wrote:I'm puzzled by Kanluwen's comment here, too. No retcon is necessary. It's not hard to believe that Adpetus Terra preserved the genetic record of all the Primarchs. The only explanation -- NOT retcon -- necessary is as to why the Blood Ravens aren't subject to the mutations that plagued the 1ksons before Magnus did his deal with the Ruinous Powers.

That is a good point!

By now, with all of the over the top 'hints' we've been given, it isn't IF they are secret Thousand Sons successors, but HOW are they secret Thousand Sons successors so successfully? Heh!

I would have voted if there was a "they're fine"/"they fit fine" option between the top and second place option.

Don't like 'em. Don't like their name, don't like their similar appearance to the Blangles, don't like their silly 1K Sons back-story, don't like their poncey scout sergeant with his emo haircut. Don't like 'em, won't have 'em.

If there's one thing in 40k I will be utterly unreasonable about, it's these beggars. But fortunately I don't regard the games as canon, so they don't exist.

The Blood Ravens seem like a decent vector for expanding 40k lore. I don't particularly mind more stroes about Ultramarines, but the more variety the better.

Also, I need to go back and play some DoW...I never picked up on the Thousand Suns hints Is this bit in the novels? I haven't read any of the BR novels.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:You reckon any SCs might appear in C:SM 6th? I'd personally be shocked.

To be honest...one kind of already did. Sergeant Telion is, for all intents and purposes, Sergeant Cyrus just rebranded for the Ultramarines.

C:SM 5th released in October 2008. Dawn of War 2 released in February 2009. "Now pay attention, Kanluwen!" /Desmond Llewelyn impression

Really? You can't see how that works? Games aren't in development for a year, Manchu!

odh1nn wrote:As an aside, I've also seen a couple of people play them as "counts as Blood Angels." Weird, if you ask me...

Yeah, I don't think that makes any sense at all.

People see "Blood" and think "Ooh, Blood Angels!". It's just that simple.

djphranq wrote:They have a special place in my heart because they were one of my first experiences with Space Marines.

Very true -- a whole generation, perhaps, of 40k fans saw the Blood Ravens before ever laying eyes on an Ultramarine, Blood Angel, or Space Wolf.

Well unless they used the Army Painter tool. It had all of them in there.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only thing that irks me is the continual implications of them being Thousand Sons Successors and the inevitable heavy handed retcon to fit them in as such.

You're the only person I've ever seen who said that would require a 'retcon' to make it work. Most people just go "Cool! Loyalist 1KSons successors!"

I'm puzzled by Kanluwen's comment here, too. No retcon is necessary. It's not hard to believe that Adeptus Terra preserved the genetic record of all the Primarchs. The only explanation -- NOT retcon -- necessary is as to why the Blood Ravens aren't subject to the mutations that plagued the 1ksons before Magnus did his deal with the Ruinous Powers.

How is it not hard to figure out why a retcon is necessary?

The entirety of the Chapter isn't psychic but they did have a larger than usual complement of Librarians, who were supposed to be more powerful than normal---while the Thousand Sons were ,completely through and through their Legion, psykers.
The only thing to realize about the Thousand Sons is that it's not as though they were all able to do what each of the Cults did. Few of them could see the future, set the air on fire, manipulate their body chemistry, all while raising huge barriers of kinetic energy with their mind. They were organized into the Cults based upon what they were able to do.
The Corvidae, Athaneans, Raptora, Pavoni, and the Pyrae.

I don't mind the idea of Blood Ravens being Successors of a Traitor Legion---but why does it need to be the Thousand Sons, the one Legion that doesn't actually lend itself to Successors due to the Flesh Change or the geneseed which was suspected to be the reason for the huge amount of psykers in the Legion(seriously--even the Terrans were supposed to be psykers. That's pretty clearly not a case of the Prosperan psychic trait, it's the geneseed)?

Oh right. Because there was a line once in a White Dwarf Index Astartes article talking about how Puritans refer to the cautionary tale of Magnus and the Thousand Sons because of the Blood Ravens constantly using foresight to try to defuse threats before they happen.

It'd be far better if the Blood Ravens end up being Night Lords Successors or Alpha Legion. At least then there's a reason for all the nutters we've seen in the Blood Ravens.

Baragash wrote:I would have voted if there was a "they're fine"/"they fit fine" option between the top and second place option.

What? I think there are more than enough options.


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Kanluwen: You still haven't established any need for a retcon. Also, there's no reason to believe that Telion was inspired by Cyrus.

Seriously?

The Thousand Sons Geneseed made everyone within the Legion a psyker.

The Blood Ravens are not 100% psykers.
We know this because Graham McNeill made a big deal about having powerful Librarians and a larger than normal number of them in the IA article.

As for the Cyrus/Telion connection--you're right, I can't give hard evidence. What I can point to, however, is that out of nowhere a Scout Sergeant who trained all the heroes of the Ultramarines appears mere months before the release of DOW2(at which time, we had already had Sergeant Cyrus previewed and fans had a pretty good reaction to him) and he just so happens to be carrying a 'Sniper' weapon and having all kinds of nasty rules that make him effectively a sniper like Cyrus.
This is not long after the Dark Angels lost their Scout-Sergeant character(Naaman) who had been present within the mini-dex, with the justification of "We don't feel that Scouts need characters to sit with them, especially if they're just going to be snipers", mind you.

However here's a fun fact which I don't know if it was intended or not by the DOW2 team:
Cyrus the Great(Cyrus the II) is the name of an Achaemenid ruler and the founder of the Great Persian Empire...and the Achaemanid is where the Terran members of the Thousand Sons were stated to be recruited from.

So hey. If they can find a way around the flesh-change and the psyker thing or the fact that most of the viable gene-seed was destroyed when the Rubric of Ahriman happened, without having to pull a Goto--good for them.

I think my thoughts can be summed up here



PS moving to 40k discussion.

Games Workshop is involved with the DoW games at least as far as the writing must be cleared by them.
There is a canon ending for each game. Sounds like in canon to me.

Zakiriel wrote:Games Workshop is involved with the DoW games at least as far as the writing must be cleared by them.
There is a canon ending for each game. Sounds like in canon to me.

GW's canon is so sketchy and self-contradictory that I stopped trying to keep up with it ages ago. It's getting to have a poorer and poorer quality of writing too, in my eyes. So I pick and choose what I consider canon, I keep my own canon. Keeps the game fun for me. So it might sound like canon to you, but the magically angel summoning Sisters of Battle in soulstorm don't particularly sound like canon to me. So nuts to it.

Kanluwen wrote:The Blood Ravens are not 100% psykers.

Actually, what we know is that they aren't 100% librarians. The Blood Ravens' individual psychic capacities may in fact be greater than the average Space Marine. And even if they are not, it makes sense that Adeptus Terra would not have created a Chapter from 1ksons stock without giving it a few tweaks. Like crubing their psychic powers to dull the flesh change problems, for example? We simply don't know this yet, one way or the other -- therefore no retcon is necessary. You've got retconning confused with story development.