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Void__Dragon wrote:

Melissia wrote:No. Orbital bombardment would, if not actually vaporize, turn power armor to slag.

"Amid the chaos, Kai is forced to abandon any pretence of a fighting retreat. He makes contact with the Sky Sentinels fleet, who begin a systematic bombardment of the temple site. Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs that explode amongst the ruins - the Daemons and the Tyranids are not so fortunate. When the bombardment ceases, Kai and the surviving Grey Knights evacuate before Daemon and Tyranid forces can arrive."
- Grey Knight codex, page 17

An orbital lance strike is S10 AP1. The only way it could be more powerful in tabletop is if it was SD. The only way the Grey Knights would survive that is through psychic shielding, not through their power armor, which is insufficient to the task. It would be SD, but that's apocalypse only. "Barrage bombs", if they cannot even get through power armor, would be a very, very weak form of orbital bombardment. Meltaguns are stronger than that-- a Guard meltagun can easily blow a hole straight through a space marine. Krak missiles are stronger than that-- they can thoroughly demolish power armor and instantly kill the marine inside in one hit. Both of these are supported by Black Library fluff. "Barrage Bombs" are probably closer to a cluster bomb type ordnance than anything else, otherwise that's just Mat Ward being a douche.

Barrage Bombs are only Ap4, marines win

The pics were a little too hardcore for the website...but all in the all the lasgun is made fun of because in comparison to the rest of the weapons in 40k it is essentially a laser pointer on overdrive

And yet, it can still kill a marine in one shot.

The lasgun isn't weak, it's actually quite deadly.

I can understand why people think that they're weak, but even on the tabletop they have a 50/50 chance of causing a wound so grievous as to kill or incapacitate a human in one shot. I consider that a pretty damn deadly weapon.

Melissia wrote:An orbital lance strike is S10 AP1. The only way it could be more powerful in tabletop is if it was SD. The only way the Grey Knights would survive that is through psychic shielding, not through their power armor, which is insufficient to the task. It would be SD, but that's apocalypse only. "Barrage bombs", if they cannot even get through power armor, would be a very, very weak form of orbital bombardment. Meltaguns are stronger than that-- a Guard meltagun can easily blow a hole straight through a space marine. Krak missiles are stronger than that-- they can thoroughly demolish power armor and instantly kill the marine inside in one hit. Both of these are supported by Black Library fluff. "Barrage Bombs" are probably closer to a cluster bomb type ordnance than anything else, otherwise that's just Mat Ward being a douche.

The Barrage Bombs were able to kill the Tyranids and Greater Daemons present, and the passage confirms that Carnifexes and Tyrannofexes were present at the site of the barrage, though you are right in that when bombarding a planet they focus more on a diffuse blast radius than pure penetrating power.

I never said that a Space Marine could survive all forms of orbital bombardment (And you will notice until now I never once mentioned "orbital lance strikes"), just that they have survived it. The "orbital lance strike" is on the tabletop as powerful as a Deathstrike Missile, which as I said, can destabilise the tectonic plates of a planet. So while Barrage Bombs are not the strongest form orbital bombardment can take, it is not "weak." Meltaguns are geared specifically towards penetrating armour, IIRC they can melt through a bunker pretty easily. Krak Missiles similarly are not "weak" by any stretch of the word, when the Salamanders fought the Dark Eldar in Commorragh, single Krak missiles sent massive Dark Eldar spires toppling.

Power armour is capable of surviving other immensely powerful blasts, another example being Ahriman's psychic bomb he left which destroyed the largest Great Library outside of Sol and apparently "rocked the planet on its axis," though I'm willing to say that's hyperbole. But said blast completely incinerated every guardsman present, the Marines were protected by their armour.

The Lasgun is not powerful by 40k standards, and I have not once heard of a Marine being killed by one in a single shot wearing armour. Even bolters are not likely to do that.

As mentioned in GW studio material, power armour does not appear to be that invulnerable. It cannot be, else it would be a little unfair for the Tabletop, for which the fluff was created (as it was *not* the other way around).

That said, of course all kinds of protection stack - you could explain the bit mentioned in the GK Codex by the bombardment hitting the ruins - inside which the Astartes were located - and the power armour protecting the Marines from the falling debris. Just to provide a potential solution for this apparent contradiction.

Lynata wrote:As mentioned in GW studio material, power armour does not appear to be that invulnerable. It cannot be, else it would be a little unfair for the Tabletop, for which the fluff was created (as it was *not* the other way around).

That said, of course all kinds of protection stack - you could explain the bit mentioned in the GK Codex by the bombardment hitting the ruins - inside which the Astartes were located - and the power armour protecting the Marines from the falling debris. Just to provide a potential solution for this apparent contradiction.

Why would it be unfair for the tabletop? Necron Warriors can take heavy bolters to the chest without dropping in the fluff, and plasma weaponry is considered "ineffective" according to the "Dawn of the C'tan" story that was on GW's website, both of these are also somewhat true on the tabletop. A guardsman is nowhere near the equal of either, in the fluff, or on the tabletop (To be honest, reading the fluff, one gets the impression that the difference between them on the tabletop isn't big enough).

Actually falling debris in the GK codex was one of the things that was actually killing Marines of the Invaders chapter, hundreds of tons of stone and steel crushing them after the Warpfire that destroyed the Librarium and incinerated the guard failed to kill them. And the fluff directly stating they weathered the barrage bombs with their armour, not crediting the ruins themselves.

Space Marines with their armour have taken bolt-rounds to the face and only been dazed, Ork Boys are able to weather lasgun fire even with their crappy armour (Getting by mostly on sheer toughness), a lasgun is not likely to do a thing on its own. That's why the guard employs so many of them, quantity over quality.

Void__Dragon wrote:Why would it be unfair for the tabletop? Necron Warriors can take heavy bolters to the chest without dropping in the fluff, and plasma weaponry is considered "ineffective" according to the "Dawn of the C'tan" story that was on GW's website, both of these are also somewhat true on the tabletop.

"Ineffective" is a rather ambiguous term - a wooden club is ineffective compared to a handgun, but both can kill a man. As far as Necron Warriors vs Heavy Bolters are concerned, the NW still has to succeed on 3+ saves to avoid getting dropped; there's a very realistic chance that an attack will take the model out. However, when you increase power armour protection of Marines, Sisters and Inquisitors against lasguns further, other high-tiered models would likewise have to have their protection raised and the whole system starts to wiggle. The chance is already small enough, but perfect to represent those lucky shots that either hit a weaker or damaged spot of the armour.

Void__Dragon wrote:A guardsman is nowhere near the equal of either, in the fluff, or on the tabletop (To be honest, reading the fluff, one gets the impression that the difference between them on the tabletop isn't big enough).

In terms of fluff, one has to be careful to differentiate between objective description and epic legend, most notably the non-canonical exaggerations of certain BL novels who I think have cultivated a very twisted image of the Astartes' actual capabilities amongst their fans. Studio material such as the Marine codices is already fairly generous when it comes to describing the awesome feats of the Adeptus Astartes, but it still leaves enough room for interpretation to make it suit the TT rules. Of course interpretation can also move to the other side and there are certainly enough allusions to validate the image of immortal supermen (just like one could easily accuse the quoted vulnerability of Marine power armour as being outdated due to the age of that codex), but this is dependent on one's own personal preferences. I myself am biased in favor of a more gritty, "grounded" experience.

Perhaps it is wrong to say that either our perception is "false". Given that GW has (sadly) scaled back on adding hard facts and numbers to their descriptions in the recent years, it may be working as intended that there is quite a lot of leeway. It works for BL authors as well, after all.

Void__Dragon wrote:Actually falling debris in the GK codex was one of the things that was actually killing Marines of the Invaders chapter, hundreds of tons of stone and steel crushing them after the Warpfire that destroyed the Librarium and incinerated the guard failed to kill them. And the fluff directly stating they weathered the barrage bombs with their armour, not crediting the ruins themselves.

Just saying that falling debris may easily be considered part of the bombardment - given that one would be caused by the other. In WW2, the majority of people did not actually die to the bomb blasts but to the fires they caused or because the building they were in collapsed or because they suffocated in the ruins and shelters, but still those casualties are all accredited to "the bombardment". This too is a matter of interpretation.
That said, I like finding potential explanations/excuses to bring apparent contradictions in the fluff "in line" - another bias of mine.

Void__Dragon wrote:That's why the guard employs so many of them, quantity over quality.

Yet, this still means that a single lasgun must have a chance of doing something. This is something where FFG's RPG sadly fails in its rules, because weapon damage doesn't magically increase just because you use more of them. The only thing that does increase is the rate of fire and the likelyhood of the target being hit. A Guardsman shooting his lasgun 10 times will do exactly the same as 10 Guardsmen shooting once. The Tabletop pays heed to this fact by giving lasguns a comparatively low chance to drop a Marine, but still leaving this chance to exist - so the more Guardsmen you field, the more likely you are to yield a result.

Lynata wrote:A Guardsman shooting his lasgun 10 times will do exactly the same as 10 Guardsmen shooting once.

Unless the Guardsmen hit the same spot simultaneously, which with a large number of Guardsmen could happen. Or one spot is hit repeatedly by the same Guardsman, and is weakened by the successive shots.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Unless the Guardsmen hit the same spot simultaneously, which with a large number of Guardsmen could happen. Or one spot is hit repeatedly by the same Guardsman, and is weakened by the successive shots.

Aye, but I would think that the chance of one Guardsman hitting the same spot multiple times is exactly the same as with 10 Guardsmen hitting it once.

Grey Templar wrote:
the Deathstrike missile is NOT anywhere near what its like in the fluff.

in the fluff, a Deathstrike can level small hives and cause tectonic destabilization. it also has a range of nearly an entire planet.


GW toned it down for use in normal games because they wanted to sell models.

Well, it does have infinite range at the very least.

LOL at people unable to take images of dead people. they are disturbing but come on now. no need to cry. the people of this world are too soft. everything offends everyone lololololo.


ON TOPIC Lasguns as I seen it are pretty powerful in the books. if I rem correctly Eisenhorn got his hand blown off by a lasgun? that's a pretty good in terms of power. now maybe it loses a lot of energy when it comes to penetration of armor but still not every gun is men't to handle all jobs ;D

Oh yeah. A picture of a suicide victim who had his head turned into hamburger by a shotgun blast isn't offensive at all.

Void__Dragon wrote:So while Barrage Bombs are not the strongest form orbital bombardment can take, it is not "weak."

If they're unable to penetrate power armor, they're weak as an orbital bombardment tool.

Pathetically weak. You could protect yourself from that kind of bomb just by stepping inside most Imperial buildings, nevermind military vehicles or bunkers. Or a cave.

Lynata wrote:"Ineffective" is a rather ambiguous term - a wooden club is ineffective compared to a handgun, but both can kill a man. As far as Necron Warriors vs Heavy Bolters are concerned, the NW still has to succeed on 3+ saves to avoid getting dropped; there's a very realistic chance that an attack will take the model out. However, when you increase power armour protection of Marines, Sisters and Inquisitors against lasguns further, other high-tiered models would likewise have to have their protection raised and the whole system starts to wiggle. The chance is already small enough, but perfect to represent those lucky shots that either hit a weaker or damaged spot of the armour.

In terms of fluff, one has to be careful to differentiate between objective description and epic legend, most notably the non-canonical exaggerations of certain BL novels who I think have cultivated a very twisted image of the Astartes' actual capabilities amongst their fans. Studio material such as the Marine codices is already fairly generous when it comes to describing the awesome feats of the Adeptus Astartes, but it still leaves enough room for interpretation to make it suit the TT rules. Of course interpretation can also move to the other side and there are certainly enough allusions to validate the image of immortal supermen (just like one could easily accuse the quoted vulnerability of Marine power armour as being outdated due to the age of that codex), but this is dependent on one's own personal preferences. I myself am biased in favor of a more gritty, "grounded" experience.

Perhaps it is wrong to say that either our perception is "false". Given that GW has (sadly) scaled back on adding hard facts and numbers to their descriptions in the recent years, it may be working as intended that there is quite a lot of leeway. It works for BL authors as well, after all.

Just saying that falling debris may easily be considered part of the bombardment - given that one would be caused by the other. In WW2, the majority of people did not actually die to the bomb blasts but to the fires they caused or because the building they were in collapsed or because they suffocated in the ruins and shelters, but still those casualties are all accredited to "the bombardment". This too is a matter of interpretation.
That said, I like finding potential explanations/excuses to bring apparent contradictions in the fluff "in line" - another bias of mine.

Yet, this still means that a single lasgun must have a chance of doing something. This is something where FFG's RPG sadly fails in its rules, because weapon damage doesn't magically increase just because you use more of them. The only thing that does increase is the rate of fire and the likelyhood of the target being hit. A Guardsman shooting his lasgun 10 times will do exactly the same as 10 Guardsmen shooting once. The Tabletop pays heed to this fact by giving lasguns a comparatively low chance to drop a Marine, but still leaving this chance to exist - so the more Guardsmen you field, the more likely you are to yield a result.

1. Well, it is all relative. The OP is basically saying that Lasguns don't get enough respect, and are powerful weapons. By today's standards, that is certainly true. By 40k's standards, they are the weakest standard-issue weapon in the setting. Heavy Bolters can of course down a Necron Warrior temporarily, but their exoskeletons have been shown to be able to resist them as well. A Heavy Bolter is obviously superior to a lasgun. Now, do not think I am suggesting anything like lasguns should be nerfed or armour buffed to better represent fluff; I'm not. Though I don't think the rules necessarily represent fluff, either. For instance, the Wraithlord is physically stronger and tougher than the Avatar of Khaine. Yet, in the Tyranid codex, the Hive Tyrant that effortlessly shrugged off Wraithlord attacks and casually tore them to pieces, chose to avoid fighting the Avatar of Khaine, because it apparently would have lost. But, I digress, just saying that rules don't necessarily correlate perfectly with fluff.

2. In the codex fluff, single marines can hold off an invasion of Orks (Numbering millions) for days apparently. And then of course there are individuals like Kaldor Draigo, the most overexagerrated and overpowered character in 40k short of actual deities, who makes any BL "exagerration" look tame in comparison. It doesn't take BL to overhype, I guess is my point. There are contradictions within the codices themselves, I myself came across one in the Dark Angels and Ork codices regarding one another. Space Marines may not be technically immortal, but they are supermen, each one capable of feats vastly eclipsing that of a normal human.

Now, admittedly, I frankly think a lot of this is due to plot armour, rather than power armour. And maybe this perception is the fault of my own, since by the time I started getting into 40k, Ward had already written two Space Marine codices.

3. Some hard facts and numbers would be nice, yes.

4. Perhaps, but it seems a stretch to me, honestly. But it says their armour "weathered the storm of barrage bombs," which is a bit too specific IMHO for much of an alternate interpretation.

5. Of course there is a chance, power armour is not infallible, it has structural weaknesses. And one guardsman shooting ten times alone isn't likely to live very long, they make a fairly distinguishable target, and every other faction's standard weapon renders their armour useless. For one guardsman to kill a marine, unless he is absurdly lucky or unusually badass, the MArine would have to literally let the guardsman shoot at him for the marine to die.

Although honestly, at this point... I'm not sure what we are arguing about...? You say Lasguns have a small chance to drop a marine, I agree. So if we both agree, I'm not sure where the debate is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:If they're unable to penetrate power armor, they're weak as an orbital bombardment tool.

Pathetically weak. You could protect yourself from that kind of bomb just by stepping inside most Imperial buildings, nevermind military vehicles or bunkers. Or a cave.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, repeating yourself over and over again doesn't actually make your claim true.

Barrage Bombs are also used to down the shields of a starship, and for use in damaging starships in general.

I guess those are weak too huh?

Void__Dragon wrote:For instance, the Wraithlord is physically stronger and tougher than the Avatar of Khaine. Yet, in the Tyranid codex, the Hive Tyrant that effortlessly shrugged off Wraithlord attacks and casually tore them to pieces, chose to avoid fighting the Avatar of Khaine, because it apparently would have lost.

Hmm, I see. Perhaps (excuse mode on ) this could be explained by said Tyrant just being convinced he should avoid a fight, even if he would have an advantage. It's kind of the opposite situation to weaker characters winning over stronger ones by sheer fortune and dedication, such as Saint Praxedes bashing in the head of a Hive Tyrant with her power maul. This would also explain the Tyrant-vs-Wraithlord situation. Battles are always very circumstancial - sufficiently so that stats could almost never guarantee an outcome, just a likely result. Naturally, the exceptions from these results are the ones who are considered to be even more awesome for the victorious "underdog", which is why they often find their way into Codex stories.

But, that's just to elucidate on my position. I know that I cannot offer much in terms of hard facts on this. As you may have guessed, I do like details and a certain predictability, hence my motif.

Void__Dragon wrote:In the codex fluff, single marines can hold off an invasion of Orks (Numbering millions) for days apparently.

That sounds ... odd. A single Marine would run out of ammunition in the first wave of attack, and then quickly get overpowered in close combat - even if it takes 10 Orks to topple and pin him to the ground. I'm sure there's a reason for why Rogal Dorn likened 100 Marines to "just" 1000 normal troops, and not more. If a single Marine would be capable of holding off such a vast invasion force, the Imperium wouldn't be in the trouble it is now.
Isn't it more likely that there were other parties active in the background? Any place that gets invaded surely has at least a PDF presence, if not a couple Imperial Guard regiments, both coming with turret emplacements, artillery, air support and vehicles.

It's like that one story about the Order of the Sacred Rose liberating a hundred worlds with just 1.000 Battle Sisters - the material doesn't mention anyone else helping them, but I am quite convinced that they did not do this alone but rather had at least a large number of Frateris Militia joining this War of Faith, and likely local rebels rising up against the tyrant as well. Well, either that, or those hundred worlds were very, very scarcely populated...

You have a good point in mentioning Draigo, though, that's something not even I can find an excuse for. You're quite correct in that it doesn't take BL to overhype, for everytime I take a look at my 2E SoB Codex there is one story about the Space Wolves that is just really, really far out... But yeah, plot armour, as you say.

Void__Dragon wrote:Although honestly, at this point... I'm not sure what we are arguing about...? You say Lasguns have a small chance to drop a marine, I agree. So if we both agree, I'm not sure where the debate is.

True, I guess we're pretty much on the same boat here. Thanks for the fun exchange.

I think the Marine that held off the thousands of Orks was Calgar and his twin Pimp fists.

coolyo294 wrote:I think the Marine that held off the thousands of Orks was Calgar and his twin Pimp fists.

This just created a very comic-like animation in my head with Calgar on one side and Ork after Ork coming from the other, then Calgar just going *POM* *POW* *BAM*, sending them flying.

Given the endurance a marine has, and assuming that Calgar was holding a narrow approach so only a few orks could get to him at a time, it wouldn't be beyond belief that a single marine could hold off many thouands of enemies.

There are well documented cases of small bands of as few as a dozen men holding off armies numbering in the thousands when fortified in a good position. I do think it was a castle in Israel that about a dozen crusaders held off a force of Saracens for over 6 months before reinforcements came and broke the seige and took not a single casuality.

Barrage Bombs are also used to down the shields of a starship, and for use in damaging starships in general.

Then they can slaughter Marines in power armor with ease.

Power armor is not more protective than an Imperial Navy warship's outer plates.

Stupidly written and inconsistent fluff is still stupidly written and inconsistent fluff, no matter how insistent you are on using it.

Melissia wrote:Stupidly written and inconsistent fluff is still stupidly written and inconsistent fluff, no matter how insistent you are on using it.

So what are you basing your argument on?

Lynata wrote:Hmm, I see. Perhaps (excuse mode on ) this could be explained by said Tyrant just being convinced he should avoid a fight, even if he would have an advantage. It's kind of the opposite situation to weaker characters winning over stronger ones by sheer fortune and dedication, such as Saint Praxedes bashing in the head of a Hive Tyrant with her power maul. This would also explain the Tyrant-vs-Wraithlord situation. Battles are always very circumstancial - sufficiently so that stats could almost never guarantee an outcome, just a likely result. Naturally, the exceptions from these results are the ones who are considered to be even more awesome for the victorious "underdog", which is why they often find their way into Codex stories.

But, that's just to elucidate on my position. I know that I cannot offer much in terms of hard facts on this. As you may have guessed, I do like details and a certain predictability, hence my motif.

That's the thing: The Avatar was dealt with by sending like two dozen Carnifexes at it until he was no longer a problem. The Avatar killed a sizeable portion of those Carnifexes. Something that in-game is highly unlikely bordering on impossible to happen. Oh, and do note, I didn't say the Tyrant killed "a" Wraithlord. It killed multiple Wraithlords and Wraithguard, the same beings which before meeting said Hive Tyrant were the main reason Iyanden had held so long, Wraithlords in particular being mentioned to be grappling with Carnifexes.

Lynata wrote:That sounds ... odd. A single Marine would run out of ammunition in the first wave of attack, and then quickly get overpowered in close combat - even if it takes 10 Orks to topple and pin him to the ground. I'm sure there's a reason for why Rogal Dorn likened 100 Marines to "just" 1000 normal troops, and not more. If a single Marine would be capable of holding off such a vast invasion force, the Imperium wouldn't be in the trouble it is now.
Isn't it more likely that there were other parties active in the background? Any place that gets invaded surely has at least a PDF presence, if not a couple Imperial Guard regiments, both coming with turret emplacements, artillery, air support and vehicles.

It's like that one story about the Order of the Sacred Rose liberating a hundred worlds with just 1.000 Battle Sisters - the material doesn't mention anyone else helping them, but I am quite convinced that they did not do this alone but rather had at least a large number of Frateris Militia joining this War of Faith, and likely local rebels rising up against the tyrant as well. Well, either that, or those hundred worlds were very, very scarcely populated...

You have a good point in mentioning Draigo, though, that's something not even I can find an excuse for. You're quite correct in that it doesn't take BL to overhype, for everytime I take a look at my 2E SoB Codex there is one story about the Space Wolves that is just really, really far out... But yeah, plot armour, as you say.

Well, to be fair, it was Marneus Calgar, surely being our Spiritual Liege accounts for something. And to be fair, Dorn's quote is kinda, well, hyperbolic, I doubt it is meant to be an exact representation of a Space Marine's prowess. And no, I don't think it was said that other parties were active in the background, not that I can recall anyway. Just Calgar. And Calgar believes such things like artillery and air support are for pussies. Actually, IIRC, there is a Black Templar hero who did similar. So has Mephiston, but Mephiston is blatantly exceptional for a Marine, he's ripped Carnifexes to pieces with his bare hands.

Well, that is because there is no excuse for Draigo. A Primarch would be incapable of doing the things he's done. Out of curiosity, what was the Space Wolf story in the 2e SoB codex about? As a professional hater, am always looking for reasons to validate my dislike of the Space Wolves.

Lynata wrote:True, I guess we're pretty much on the same boat here. Thanks for the fun exchange.

No problem.

Melissia wrote:Then they can slaughter Marines in power armor with ease.

Power armor is not more protective than an Imperial Navy warship's outer plates.

Stupidly written and inconsistent fluff is still stupidly written and inconsistent fluff, no matter how insistent you are on using it.

Ward has written every Space Marine codex in 5th edition, for good or ill.

What he writes basically defines the Space Marines in current 40k.

I might be willing to give what you were saying consideration, were your argument not "No u." Seriously, tell me what you are basing your argument on.

It didn't say the Marines were taking direct hits, and indeed, barrage bombs do not work like that.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:LOL at people unable to take images of dead people. they are disturbing but come on now. no need to cry. the people of this world are too soft. everything offends everyone lololololo.

I can take quite a lot of things. That doesn't mean that I want some of those things to intrude on my hobby time, which is supposed to be relaxing and fun.

I would also remind everyone that Dakka is a family-friendly site. Kids don't need to be seeing that sort of stuff.

Belexar wrote:I'm sure all of us here know the lasgun. The most common weapon in the imperium, it's carried by most guardsmen and it's favored even by the most eperienced veterans. It fires beams of red las in semi-auto or full-auto. It's accurate, light, cheap, easily manufactured and it has the great bennefit of it's power cells being capable of charging with sunlight.

Even so, it hasn't been treate with the respect such a powerful weapon deserves. People have reffered to them as "flashlights" and considere using themm as laser-rights for bolters of more powerful weapons. However, I'd like you to compare it with another weapon from the Imperial arsenal that even we are quite familiar with: the shotgun. They both have a very similar profile, except fpr the longer range of the former and the assault capability of the later.

Now, basing on pictures and assumptions, I cantell that the weapon some veterans ue are quite similar with our day's assault shotguns. Have you seen tho guns? Have you seen what they can do? I will show you.

WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGES: - Removed by insaniak. Completely unnecessary and not appropriate to the forum.

I hope that was a good example of the power that a shotgun holds. Now, that's a 12 gauge shotgun. Imagine all that power, condensed into a single beam of las. As an ork would say: "Dead killy." Suddenly, they don't look like flashlights at all, do they?

Well I saw the images before they were removed and I would say that you have never ever really seen what a shot gun can do at close range. It can chop limbs, slipt your head in two after a point blank shot, make huge holes in your body. Also the effect of the shot gun depends on the range it is being fired from, the ammunition that is being used and ofc what kind of shot gun are you firing.

Void__Dragon wrote:Oh, and do note, I didn't say the Tyrant killed "a" Wraithlord. It killed multiple Wraithlords and Wraithguard, the same beings which before meeting said Hive Tyrant were the main reason Iyanden had held so long, Wraithlords in particular being mentioned to be grappling with Carnifexes.

That explains it! The Avatar was unique, but there were lots of Wraithlords - so naturally a clever Hive Tyrant would think that the Avatar must be more dangerous!

...

Void__Dragon wrote:Out of curiosity, what was the Space Wolf story in the 2e SoB codex about? As a professional hater, am always looking for reasons to validate my dislike of the Space Wolves.

Oh, just a small bit about the so-called Plague of Unbelief, with a renegade Cardinal basically bringing the entire Segmentum Pacificus under his reign until he runs into Fenris, which is defended by a small reserve garrison of Wolves that manage to hold off millions upon millions of Guardsmen, with the Imperial Navy demonstrating supreme incompetence as they manage to get dozens of landers lost in bad weather. In return, the SW ships - which are canonically not supposed to outgun Navy vessels in a one-on-one - manage to destroy two warships before retreating with a bit of hull paint lost. This goes on for three years, involving constant orbital bombardment and artillery strikes at the Fang, until the rest of the Chapter that has been away on some crusade finally goes home to find the Segmentum Pacificus Navy blockading their system. Fortunately, the Space Wolves have an entire fleet of Battle Barges, so they send the Navy running.

So, basically, Space Wolves > Segmentum Pacificus.

You can actually read the entire abomination on Lexicanum here, if you're interested. Having this fanfiction-grade crap take up 4 valuable pages of my SoB Codex almost feels like an insult.

This was why I (somewhat sarcastically) nominated the Fang for being the best fortress of the Imperium in that other thread, by the way.

Lynata wrote:That explains it! The Avatar was unique, but there were lots of Wraithlords - so naturally a clever Hive Tyrant would think that the Avatar must be more dangerous!

...

That doesn't explain how the Avatar crushed multiple Carnifexes before falling though. D:

I guess a string of good rolls makes it possible though.

Lynata wrote:Oh, just a small bit about the so-called Plague of Unbelief, with a renegade Cardinal basically bringing the entire Segmentum Pacificus under his reign until he runs into Fenris, which is defended by a small reserve garrison of Wolves that manage to hold off millions upon millions of Guardsmen, with the Imperial Navy demonstrating supreme incompetence as they manage to get dozens of landers lost in bad weather. In return, the SW ships - which are canonically not supposed to outgun Navy vessels in a one-on-one - manage to destroy two warships before retreating with a bit of hull paint lost. This goes on for three years, involving constant orbital bombardment and artillery strikes at the Fang, until the rest of the Chapter that has been away on some crusade finally goes home to find the Segmentum Pacificus Navy blockading their system. Fortunately, the Space Wolves have an entire fleet of Battle Barges, so they send the Navy running.

So, basically, Space Wolves > Segmentum Pacificus.

You can actually read the entire abomination on Lexicanum here, if you're interested. Having this fanfiction-grade crap take up 4 valuable pages of my SoB Codex almost feels like an insult.

This was why I (somewhat sarcastically) nominated the Fang for being the best fortress of the Imperium in that other thread, by the way.

Oh, so standard Space Wolf ability to special snowflake their way through any situation? To be fair, the Fang is apparently really well-fortified, but an empire consisting of 50+ planets (Seriously, that's over half the size of the entire Tau Empire) being unable to overcome less than the full strength of the Wolves is kinda stupid.

Yeah, the Space Wolf codex is similar in that regard, the Space Wolves are pretty big Mary Sue special snowflakes who have plot armour that would make the Ultramarines blush at times.

I don't think people realise that the ONLY planet more fortified then the Fang is Terra itself.


the Fang is protected by Voids that would make an Emperor Battleship feel insecure. the Power Generators are huge and can keep the Voids from collapsing against any bombardment.

then, Bad weather. Fenris has horrific winter storms that are dangerous for even a Thunderhawk. Imperial Landers even more so.

and once you do land troops, what are you going to do? the Fang is a mountain with a few fortified openings. nothing to bombard unless you don't want to gain entrance. then its a maze of passages that the Wolves know quite well, a single space wolf could ambush a fire team in a confined space and totally destroy them in the space of a couple seconds(bolter on full auto or just rolling there with a chainsword) then the space wolf would vanish from whence he came.

Nah, I could buy that the Fang is the second-best fortress in the Imperium (though that makes the Cadians look slightly lazy for not putting enough work into building something similar) - but no fortress should be impenetrable.

There's just too much plot armour in that story, sorry. From a dozen Space Wolf ships spanking the butts of the entire Segmentum Pacificus Navy whilst themselves only getting a couple scratches to three years(!) of ground-shaking bombardment apparently having zero effect on the Fang itself. Also, I do think Dreadnoughts don't just "smash" into the midst of marching columns unless they're snowboarding down the hill. Furthermore, I thought Battle Barges were originally supposed to be rare. And one should assume that at least one ship of the entire Navy could have just exterminatussed the damn planet if they don't make any progress after all that time.

If all that is fine with you, cool, but this combination of "convenient outcomes" is just way too much for my personal sense of realism*.

(*: insofar something like that could be applied to a sci-fi setting that actually has some rules regarding this stuff)

Monster Rain wrote:

Melissia wrote:Stupidly written and inconsistent fluff is still stupidly written and inconsistent fluff, no matter how insistent you are on using it.

So what are you basing your argument on?

A desire for consistency.

Marine power armor is not more durable, nor does it provide more protection than, the outer shell of an Imperial Navy warship-- nor its void shield. A LASGUN can penetrate power armor. It takes serious firepower to penetrate warship armor-- at LEAST a meltagun or simialr things.