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No they aren't. The models are out of scale. Grots are quite a bit smaller than humans, a normal human pistol would look comedically large in their hands-- like a ten year old trying to hold a magnum revolver.

SwiftLord14 wrote:But I think in the books I've read with IG they lasgun blows. A lot of trauma is caused by the bullet bouncing around and/or exiting. The lasgun doesn't have a "bullet" so it can't bounce around. I'm not sure about exiting but it's going to seal up any major bleeding because its burn anything it touches.

The damage from a lasgun is mainly from transferring thermal energy to the tissue surrounding the beam. This can literally 'cook' organs and create a large amount of damage. Although they do seal the wounds and prevent blood loss, a medic would have to reopen said wounds in order to address the internal damage.

Yes, as I said, it'd basically flash-boil the blood and other liquids at the area receiving energy.

Melissia wrote:Yes, as I said, it'd basically flash-boil the blood and other liquids at the area receiving energy.

Yes. It could also cause parts of the target to explode due to the sudden build up of gasses.

I never thought of that Trick.

Kilkrazy wrote:Lasguns are like a lot of the other stuff in 40K. They ignore physical laws in order to work.

It's science fantasy.

NO it's called reality...
Modern day laser can cut trough lot of stuff, they just get it smaller....

Remember that submarines, planes and space travel was also science fantasy 200 years ago...

But the modern day laser requires a power-supply the size of a small building in order to do any of that. It's not in a man-portable, handheld unit fed from a powercell the same size and weight as a pack of cigarettes.

Further, there are, as yet, no effective weapons-grade lasers designed for use by an infantryman. The laser requires too much focus-time on the target to inflict injury, let alone death, and battle-field conditions simply do not permit this. We're still a long, long way from fielding "blaster rifles", unless some significant tech breakthrough is realized.

That said... yeah, a lasgun will cause your brain to cook. The water in your blood, as well as encephalic fluids, will flash-cook into steam. When water turns to gas, it expands, causing a pressure spike. Whether or not this will be enough to cause your head to literally explode is questionable... but it's certainly going to be very damaging. On a limb, it may cause surface skin and musculature to burst under the steam pressure, but will not likely cauterize the wound, unless the beam is of sufficient power to inflict a "through and through" wound.

Psienesis wrote:But the modern day laser requires a power-supply the size of a small building in order to do any of that. It's not in a man-portable, handheld unit fed from a powercell the same size and weight as a pack of cigarettes.

21'st century...
401'st century...

See the difference?

Pre-Dark Age of Technology
Post-Dark Age of Technology

See the difference?

We are, in some ways, currently more advanced than the Imperium can ever hope to be again.

Melissia wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire.

Technically, that's not actually a problem. Sloped sides aren't really all that helpful against certain kinds of anti-tank attack, only against raw kinetic force from another tank's shell.

For example, sloped armor is actually WORSE off against an RPG fired from a second story window than normal boxy armor with ninety degree angles.

The new Strykers actually have a metal cage around the side of it, it's meant to cause RPGs to explode before it has a chance to hit the hull. On a side note though, the MRAPs have a sloped undebelly which causes the blast to move outwards, as opposed to having the flat hull take on all the force. I've driven both of these and seen the result after they've hit a mine. The Strkyer (which has a flat underbelly) had a hole int he bottom that had gone straight through the armor and torn into the inner compartment. The MRAP with it's angled bottom had it's tires blown off (which it's supposed to do) but no damage had been done to the inside. The crew of the MRAP actually walked away from it, the driver had received a broken rib from hitting the steering wheel.

[edit]

As some one else mentioned, the heat of a lasgun would also seal the wound. I'm not sure whether it would cause organs to explode, however, in the codex it does state that it causes tiny explosions.

In todays wars most soldiers die from blood loss rather than instant death. Bleeding is the number one priority to treat when it comes to first aid. If a Lasgun seals the wound then it's actually a far less brutal weapon then a shotgun. Also, chances are a Lasgun shot would enter and exit, assuming it didn't hit any form of armor. This also makes the chances of recovery better, having an exit wound means you're not going to have to fish a bullet out of them.

When it comes to killing human targets, conventional weapons serve a better purpose then laser technology. The armor soldiers wear today can stop 1 or 2 rounds before being rendered useless. Kevlar helmets will cripple under a single shot unless it was a glancing shot, they issue helmets to soldiers to make them feel safer.

ZombyJezuz wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire.

Technically, that's not actually a problem. Sloped sides aren't really all that helpful against certain kinds of anti-tank attack, only against raw kinetic force from another tank's shell.

For example, sloped armor is actually WORSE off against an RPG fired from a second story window than normal boxy armor with ninety degree angles.

The new Strykers actually have a metal cage around the side of it, it's meant to cause RPGs to explode before it has a chance to hit the hull. On a side note though, the MRAPs have a sloped undebelly which causes the blast to move outwards, as opposed to having the flat hull take on all the force. I've driven both of these and seen the result after they've hit a mine. The Strkyer (which has a flat underbelly) had a hole int he bottom that had gone straight through the armor and torn into the inner compartment. The MRAP with it's angled bottom had it's tires blown off (which it's supposed to do) but no damage had been done to the inside. The crew of the MRAP actually walked away from it, the driver had received a broken rib from hitting the steering wheel.

The Stryker's metal cages don't detonate an RPG warhead (well it MAY detonate but that's secondary), they crush it on impact and destroy it's geometry so the white hot jet of copper plasma can't form. Knowing is half the battle

Brotherjulian wrote:

ZombyJezuz wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Well yeah, the LRBT and most other Warhammer tanks are horribly designed since their flat sides won't deflect any kind of fire.

Technically, that's not actually a problem. Sloped sides aren't really all that helpful against certain kinds of anti-tank attack, only against raw kinetic force from another tank's shell.

For example, sloped armor is actually WORSE off against an RPG fired from a second story window than normal boxy armor with ninety degree angles.

The new Strykers actually have a metal cage around the side of it, it's meant to cause RPGs to explode before it has a chance to hit the hull. On a side note though, the MRAPs have a sloped undebelly which causes the blast to move outwards, as opposed to having the flat hull take on all the force. I've driven both of these and seen the result after they've hit a mine. The Strkyer (which has a flat underbelly) had a hole int he bottom that had gone straight through the armor and torn into the inner compartment. The MRAP with it's angled bottom had it's tires blown off (which it's supposed to do) but no damage had been done to the inside. The crew of the MRAP actually walked away from it, the driver had received a broken rib from hitting the steering wheel.

The Stryker's metal cages don't detonate an RPG warhead (well it MAY detonate but that's secondary), they crush it on impact and destroy it's geometry so the white hot jet of copper plasma can't form. Knowing is half the battle

Lol, that's actually pretty cool. When I visited one of the Stryker repair plants they must have just given us the simple answer rather then explain everything. They're still fun to drive, haha.

Just saing he put a warning up then you had to click again to get the link then again click the link, so if you went that far you know what your getting yourself into so please don't complain that's just childish, on top of that may I remind you that you play a game that involves nothing but war and death so cumon folks, it's just like putting your hand on an electric fence that has warnings that it's electric, YOUR going to get shocked people (same thing here you play a game of war and click on images with warnings of bad things your going to see some bad things, simple as that.)

Psienesis wrote:But the modern day laser requires a power-supply the size of a small building in order to do any of that. It's not in a man-portable, handheld unit fed from a powercell the same size and weight as a pack of cigarettes.

Further, there are, as yet, no effective weapons-grade lasers designed for use by an infantryman. The laser requires too much focus-time on the target to inflict injury, let alone death, and battle-field conditions simply do not permit this. We're still a long, long way from fielding "blaster rifles", unless some significant tech breakthrough is realized.

actually, we are scary close.

2nd link is broke, and now I am hungry all the sudden...

Im not well versed in how lasers actually work, but wouldnt a powerful laser beam like that of a lasgun, just burn a hole through a human anyways? And not cause shotgun trauma?

Psienesis wrote:Pre-Dark Age of Technology
Post-Dark Age of Technology

See the difference?

We are, in some ways, currently more advanced than the Imperium can ever hope to be again.

In what ways are we more advanced then the Imperium

Cain wrote:Just saing he put a warning up then you had to click again to get the link then again click the link, so if you went that far you know what your getting yourself into so please don't complain that's just childish, on top of that may I remind you that you play a game that involves nothing but war and death so cumon folks, it's just like putting your hand on an electric fence that has warnings that it's electric, YOUR going to get shocked people (same thing here you play a game of war and click on images with warnings of bad things your going to see some bad things, simple as that.)

The complaints were that images do not belong on the forum which they don't, thats why the mods put them in link form. I have seen my far share of dead disfigured people, thats because I'm an adult. There are many kids on dakka who have most likey never seen this kind of stuff before. Putting "WARNING DISTURBING IMAGES" on the thread title makes people curious, thats why people click. As kingkracker said, the OP could of used words. We play a game that involves war, but its in our head so to speak, you don't see blood and gore when you play on the table. The OP was showing real dead people in the spoilers, things that could harm people mentally.

KingCracker wrote:Im not well versed in how lasers actually work, but wouldnt a powerful laser beam like that of a lasgun, just burn a hole through a human anyways? And not cause shotgun trauma?

it could burn a hole through a human.

but the Human body is full of water and water absorbes energy, specifically heat, quite readily.


Its only going to burn a hole in thinner parts. otherwise, its one massive, and deep, 3rd degree burn.

KingCracker wrote:Im not well versed in how lasers actually work, but wouldnt a powerful laser beam like that of a lasgun, just burn a hole through a human anyways? And not cause shotgun trauma?

I'm not entirely sure if lasguns are "just" lasers - their effects actually seem to be a combination of different physical theories, which leads me to believe that the authors didn't quite think through what they were writing back then. We have to keep in mind that this is a science fiction setting - just look at, say, bolter ammunition, which is supposed to contain depleted deuterium, and that just doesn't make sense. Sometimes, one just has to suspend physics and disbelief a little.

That said, if lasguns are able to burn a hole through power armour to injure the wearer, I'm fairly certain they could burn a hole through a human body as well. Grey Templar's explanation sounds viable as well, though. Personally, I wouldn't want to try out.
I guess this is something that will also see a great deal of personal interpretation amongst BL authors.

Considering strength 3, the strength of a lasbolt or IG shotgun, is the same strength as an average Guardsman? If guns were only as strong as we can punch, we wouldn't use them very often.

If you want an accurate representation of lasguns compared to real weapons, look into one of the FFG RPG books. The system is much more freeform and lets you actually show differences in power better.

Brother SRM wrote:Considering strength 3, the strength of a lasbolt or IG shotgun, is the same strength as an average Guardsman? If guns were only as strong as we can punch, we wouldn't use them very often.

If you want an accurate representation of lasguns compared to real weapons, look into one of the FFG RPG books. The system is much more freeform and lets you actually show differences in power better.

I've always looked at the strength in the profile as what they're strength is whilst using the bayonet/butt stock or a chainsword. Regardless, the point still stands, you can't get a very accurate description from looking at the stats.

Actually, I belive the GW staff have said that the different strengths are larger then each other by orders of magnitude.

this results in the strength points being a range of strengths rather then two things with the same number being identical.


a Lasgun hits with more actual force then a human punch, but not enough to be represented on a base 10 system.

Belexar wrote:Actually, most of the weapons the Guard uses are quite similar to our modern military. In fact, several countries have bombs that would make a Deathstrike look like a water baloon or tanks that would put a LRBT to shame. And no, the images aren't a joke, but they're not hamburger-like either. They were al taken from medical sites.

Deathstrike Missiles have, after impact, completely destabilised the tectonic plates of a planet and caused earthquakes across the world that killed millions.

Our race has yet to make a bomb that could even dream of doing that.

Lasguns are considered pathetic because they ARE pathetic compared to bolters, and even a bolter doesn't have a great chance of killing a Marine. In the 4e Chaos codex, a Chaos Marine takes three hits to the chest from a bolter and just gets angry, and a Loyalist proceeds to take a bolt-round from a pistol point-blank in the face, and is only disoriented. Power Armour is durable, being able to even sustain damage from city-annihilating psyker blasts that completely incinerate guardsman, or orbital bombardments.

Bolt-rounds, and even Las-rounds, can penetrate it, but not reliably, especially when discussing las-rounds.

Want to know what happened when an Ork Warboss (No Mega Armour, just a Warboss) is shot in the chest by a well-aimed Las-round? Nothing, as seen in the rulebook fluff. It was about as debilitating as being smacked by a napkin. And the rulebook fluff also makes it clear that Lasfire cannot easily fell even a normal Boy in a mob, stating that occasionally an Ork would fall, but only from a clean headshot.

Lasfire furthermore also just kind of illuminates the exoskeleton of a Necron Warrior (Like a flashlight :3 ), although I am sure it "can" injure a Necron Warrior, it happens far less often than it doesn't (To be honest I cannot recall a single instance of a Warrior being felled by a Las-round, actually), though Necrons are to be fair individually the most endurant race in 40k, with a few exceptions.

Lasguns are very powerful weaponry by today's standards, capable of piercing through two meters of concrete. But in 40k, that's not that impressive, it is telling that every single other army is armed with better weaponry standard-issue.

KingCracker wrote:Im not well versed in how lasers actually work, but wouldnt a powerful laser beam like that of a lasgun, just burn a hole through a human anyways? And not cause shotgun trauma?

Imagine a weapon capable of flash-boiling your blood at a specific location. What kind of wound would the sudden expansion of gaseous blood in one's flesh leave?

Lasguns would cause heads to explode for example, especially if it got through the bone.

Void__Dragon wrote:Power Armour is durable, being able to even sustain damage from [...] orbital bombardments.

No. Orbital bombardment would, if not actually vaporize, turn power armor to slag. Hell, even terminator armor is most likely to be destroyed by orbital bombardment, only being saved by its force field... if that.

A single orbital lance strike is capable of easily wiping out a full squad of Marines-- in fact, it'd be miraculous if any of them didn't die. Nevermind a full on bombardment.

Brother SRM wrote:Considering strength 3, the strength of a lasbolt or IG shotgun, is the same strength as an average Guardsman? If guns were only as strong as we can punch, we wouldn't use them very often.

I wouldn't compare these values directly. They are as abstracted as a game turn, and just like a single lasgun attack doesn't mean your guy is just firing a single shot, a melee attack using the model's strength doesn't mean the soldier is going to give the other one a punch. I imagine it would be a bit more dramatic, with the Guardsman pulling his bayonet and lunging at the enemy, trying to stab him a few times in the gut or grapple him and slit his throat. That should easily be as lethal as a ranged attack.

Brother SRM wrote:If you want an accurate representation of lasguns compared to real weapons, look into one of the FFG RPG books. The system is much more freeform and lets you actually show differences in power better.

Meh, those stats were chosen rather arbitrarily and, at times, clearly contradict studio material. That said, the difference between a shotgun and a lasgun in that system isn't exactly big either. One does 1d10+3 and the other 1d10+4 damage, which is pretty much in line with the TT stats.
In this instance, this is actually reflected in the RPG that Games Workshop themselves have put out, too. I see lasguns on standard setting doing slightly less damage than a 40k shotgun or autogun - but you can increase their damage by up to ~33% using the power slider and expending more energy per shot, at which point they start doing notably more damage than these projectile weapons.

Speaking of, in that RPG, GW describes lasguns as "working by firing a blast of highly charged light which transforms into heat and kinetic energy upon impact, causing tissue damage and burning."

Melissia wrote:No. Orbital bombardment would, if not actually vaporize, turn power armor to slag.

"Amid the chaos, Kai is forced to abandon any pretence of a fighting retreat. He makes contact with the Sky Sentinels fleet, who begin a systematic bombardment of the temple site. Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs that explode amongst the ruins - the Daemons and the Tyranids are not so fortunate. When the bombardment ceases, Kai and the surviving Grey Knights evacuate before Daemon and Tyranid forces can arrive."
- Grey Knight codex, page 17

Also, a little back-up from Lexicanum.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Torpedo

"Barrage Bombs are designed for planetary bombardment."

Damn, Void Dragon.

All I can say is "truth bomb." Well played.

Anyway, as to the OP, as a Space Marine player my Shotguns are Strength 4. How does this effect your appraisal of their relative strength vis a vis modern day weaponry?

Void__Dragon wrote:
"Amid the chaos, Kai is forced to abandon any pretence of a fighting retreat. He makes contact with the Sky Sentinels fleet, who begin a systematic bombardment of the temple site. Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs that explode amongst the ruins - the Daemons and the Tyranids are not so fortunate. When the bombardment ceases, Kai and the surviving Grey Knights evacuate before Daemon and Tyranid forces can arrive."
- Grey Knight codex, page 17

Also, a little back-up from Lexicanum.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Torpedo

"Barrage Bombs are designed for planetary bombardment."

On the other hand, didn't Huron accidently wipe out a Company of Grey Knights with an orbital bombardment?

Belexar wrote:Actually, most of the weapons the Guard uses are quite similar to our modern military. In fact, several countries have bombs that would make a Deathstrike look like a water baloon or tanks that would put a LRBT to shame. And no, the images aren't a joke, but they're not hamburger-like either. They were al taken from medical sites.

the Deathstrike missile is NOT anywhere near what its like in the fluff.

in the fluff, a Deathstrike can level small hives and cause tectonic destabilization. it also has a range of nearly an entire planet.


GW toned it down for use in normal games because they wanted to sell models.