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Ok posting from my phone so I apologize if this looks weird and such. Damn storm took out mu power....grrrrr. Anyways never use spikes deadliest warrior as a refrence. Most historians have openly statedhow innaccurate the findings are on that show. As per peoples statements anime and asuch have distorted a lot of the facts behind the samurai and as far as ninjas they were just assassins or warriors with no honor. They weren't always black clad (or seldom honestly) and some were women. As per the katana it was and still is one of the best swords ever made. They would test it iin several ways using prisoners ie if it could cut through more then three mens necks in one stroke it was destroyed and recreated. Also it had a layer inside the weapon itself that gave too its strength. What a lot of people don't know is samurai were first and foremost masters of the bow. The katana came later, also a great weapon many used besides the yari was the naginata.also as a side note is it just me or does it seem wgf won't take any advice or criticism

Absolutionis wrote:The fact of the matter is, katanas are "cool" because of anime.

I seem to remember as a child thinking katanas were cool because of watching G.I. Joe and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles well before anime became popular in the US.

The Katana is a symbol of Japanese military expertise, and therefore has been famous in the US since the 80s, when fears that Japan was going to take over the world economically were everywhere. They're "cool" because they really are cool. Though I prefer to see them on authentic samurai miniatures rather than just randomly inserted onto fantasy/sci fi miniatures that don't have much of anything to do with Japan. There are plenty of cool sword designs out there. Personally I don't think the falx gets enough love.

Yah, privateer press was out in front of GW on the "too much bling" area. Sad to see GW hastily following. I agree that those models are overdone and nothing I want to own - that was my take on the new Ogre Kingdom stuff generally.

Absolutionis wrote:The fact of the matter is, katanas are "cool" because of anime..

actually myself and allot of people I know always thought Katanas and any japanese weapons were cool long before we watched anime, katanas especially because of the history of individual blades and the process to make them is fascinating, so HAHA.

its allot more complex than just "hey that sword was in anime, LOLZORRIFFIC ITS COOL!!!!!"
sorry but thats just simple fact, that a sword older than anime has been cool for completely different reasons

Akira Kurosawa's Samurai movies made katanas well known long before the first anime were shown on TV.

Yea samurai movies have predated animes in popularizing samurais/etc

Heck in Warhammer Ancient Battles the creators noted that if you didnt know why they allowed you to take 7 samurai heroes, that you should be ashamed of yourself!

kenshin620 wrote:... in Warhammer Ancient Battles the creators noted that if you didnt know why they allowed you to take 7 samurai heroes ...

Yes, I might have had something to with that - although in retrospect I really should have kept Jervis on a more realistic track with the WAB:AoA Samurai list. Sorry.


I have hundreds of books on the subject (old Japan) and could discuss Japanese culture and blades - I have many, including 500-year old ones - (and/or the ninja myth) all evening...
... but let us stay on topic and focus on the WF Samurai.
Please.

The second sculpt is better...well at least the mask kind of looks like a mask.

kendoka wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:... in Warhammer Ancient Battles the creators noted that if you didnt know why they allowed you to take 7 samurai heroes ...

Yes, I might have had something to with that - although in retrospect I really should have kept Jervis on a more realistic track with the WAB:AoA Samurai list. Sorry.


I have hundreds of books on the subject (old Japan) and could discuss Japanese culture and blades - I have many, including 500-year old ones - (and/or the ninja myth) all evening...
... but let us stay on topic and focus on the WF Samurai.
Please.

If you really were apart of the design for the WAB Samurai you know you are hated by most of the WAB community right? Personally I love samurai and if some solid ones came out again I would gladly build another samurai army. ATM though these are definately not it, and with WGF willing too not take any criticism too heart it's a basic why bother.

Empchild wrote:Shuma I know you usually go into the off topic forum and start arguements but please don't do that here. If you go back and read you will see I already said what you just tried too use as an arguement against me. All I did was say why historicals need too be acurate. In this case its just a bad model design and they would need too fix the shirt a lot better if they wanted too go no shoulder pads. The reason being is that they wouldhave sowed into the shirts themselves because they needed it for deflection. Samurai armor was made from hardend leather pieces so it was very flexible.

You called them inaccurate then defended their accuracy in your post. I was asking for clarification. Without actual, reasoned, criticism all you're doing is whining.

If you really were apart of the design for the WAB Samurai you know you are hated by most of the WAB community right?

Case in point.

I like both sculpts. One at pose, the other drawing his sword in anger. But then again, I am no art critic, and most certainly not a sculptor in any capacity. So I'll just place my emotional response here and leave it at that.

If you really were apart of the design for the WAB Samurai you know you are hated by most of the WAB community right?

Case in point.

Shuma as usuall you have no idea what you are talking about. My statement above was more too the tone that most of the WAB players out there "HATE" samurai armies because most players take just bow cavalry and ride around and shoot the opponent too death without ever engaging.

Yet you said the community hated Kendoka specifically. You can't beckpadel that until you edit your old post. What you said then and what you say now are not particularly compatible.

All you are doing here is trolling so for once just stop please because I for one am about too put you back on the ignore list...again! I have already stated my feelings on the innaccuraceys from WGF on there first sculpt.

Feel free if you have to. I didn't make you contradict yourself and I didn't make you single someone else out as a pariah. If having your postings questioned bugs you then why not put everyone on ignore?

We can tone it down a bit please, yes, eh chaps ?

Much obliged.

Regarding my involvement in the Samurai list - I only helped Jervis with it. It is not my baby (although I got credit for it in the AoA book).

It was never supposed to be an authentic list (just a fun stop gap) and if only Divine Wind had been released according to plan the damage done by the list would have been minor.

As it turned out (with Divine Wind being postponed - perhaps indefinitely!?) I am as sad as the other wargamers that we do not have a really good official Samurai list.

Thus I bow my head in shame and accept the hate without argument - although I think I might skip Seppuku...

Peace.

Well I wouldnt really blame you. Imo its really tough to make all encompassing rulesets to cover everything from samurais to romans and even if the lists were balanced, its hard to make everyone feel like they're fighting the way they actually fought (I hear that this is one of the issues of FoGR).

Personally I ran a ton of ashigaru so no hatred on my end but I got the Samurai lecture at adepticon. It really was disapointing that they didn't come out with Divine Wind but that's the way it goes in the end. As far as samurai go it's a hard mini too tackle as personally I disdainthe foundry one, and the perry one is great but the swords bend all too easy and the designs are very old in their sculptin style.

3rd render, now its a samurai with yari and back banner. Tis ok I guess, nothing mind blowing

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-samurai-preview-part-3

Arms too long, legs too squat, head too big, armor all wrong. The sword is the only thing I like.

Looks like a mirrored version of the first rending with all its faults.

Aye kroot this one does not seem too be all that great.

I actually have most books written on the subject (around 70 on samurai armour and weaponry alone) and a pretty good understanding on both human physique and combat poses. IMHO: This samurai/ashigaru-line will be really good.
Some minor faults - but so has the other manufacturers.

The most important issue for WF will be on the ashigaru box(es) - as they will be bought in bulk and the minis need to be carefully designed in order to have them rank up nicely without looking unnatural.

Also, please remember that there were millions of samurai/ashigaru - and thus *many* different ways to equip and dress them...

kendoka wrote:Also, please remember that there were millions of samurai/ashigaru - and thus *many* different ways to equip and dress them...

While this is true, there is definitely a classical "archetype" of samurai armor design which is well documented. The ability to make all the variants in the world is fine, but if the core archetype isn't in the model, then they've kinda missed the point.

Sort of like how maybe one of the French knights at Agincourt might have had a duck on their heraldry and armor decorations, but that doesn't mean I should make a plastic box set of "Hundred Years' War French featuring nothing but Duck-knights.

JOHIRA wrote:

kendoka wrote:Also, please remember that there were millions of samurai/ashigaru - and thus *many* different ways to equip and dress them...

While this is true, there is definitely a classical "archetype" of samurai armor design which is well documented. The ability to make all the variants in the world is fine, but if the core archetype isn't in the model, then they've kinda missed the point.
Sort of like how maybe one of the French knights at Agincourt might have had a duck on their heraldry and armor decorations, but that doesn't mean I should make a plastic box set of "Hundred Years' War French featuring nothing but Duck-knights.

Obviously not - but WF is actually on the right track.
There is nothing in their first three samurai previews that stand out as being wrong or even remotely as "special" as your example.

I am not saying that I would have designed the minis exactly as they did - but I do not criticize based upon an extremely shallow understanding on what was true to the period (16th century) either.
Most critique (including your own regarding "western breast plate" and "folded hakama") is either plainly wrong or based upon an "archetype" from a different era.
For instance Sode (being a "arrow shield") was not as mandatory in the late 16th century as in earlier periods. Haidate (missing from the WF samurai 1-3) was often dismissed when not on horseback etc.

As the glory days of the Samurai spanned from, IMHO, around 1280 (Gempei) to 1600 (Sekigahara) tactics and equipment went through a lot of different eras - thus making it hard to produce miniatures that correspond to every wargamer's vision on how a samurai ought to be equipped. By, as WF did, selecting a late period there is room for many different types within the same units - as many samurai went to war in old gear.

Also bear in mind the fuzziness of illustrations - as there were few artists with the patience to draw 100.000 warriors the ones depicted were not always the typical soldier (not every man in a unit would wear sashimonon etc.).

WF are indeed doing "late samurai":
"... a complete range of plastic 16th Century Samurai models. The kits we have planned are Ashigaru (30-miniatures armed with either nagae yari, arquebus or yumi), Samurai Foot (armed with either yari, arquebus, yumi or katana), Samurai Cavalry (armed with either yari, yumi or katana) and, possibly, a Samurai Lord and his retinue (in fighting poses, probably on horseback)."

Out of curiousness, what "core archetype" is missing?

Box art. Looks like a cover to some sort of 90's video game

Wow, just... wow. I think I could have made better-looking box covers myself, with nothing but a handful of sharpies.

Yay, now you can have grunts

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-ashigaru-preview-1

"Suitable for 1/48th through 1/56th scale..."

Seriously?

In the world of miniature making, no one knows scale

... and noone knows that Ashigaru don't wear Samurai swords
Next box will be European medieval peasants in full plate mail and Hoplites with hellebards