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The stave protects against perils if you're in close combat (FAQ confirms this)

Pete, who runs Space Fairies against m, tend to run at 2000 points something like:

Archon
5 Incubi in Venom
2 x 5 Trueborn in Venom
4 x 9 Wyches in Raider
3 x Ravagers

with universal Flickerfields, half a dozen agonisers and shardnets on the wyches. Blasters on the Trueborn. Sometimes he squeezes in another Wych squad.

Jubear wrote:I do not understand the point of the post.

Seems like OP just wants us to say nice things about his god awful list.

How this list is supposed to compete with nearly any army is beyond me.

IG would just smile and blast you from the the table top.

DE would just smile and lance you from the table.

Hell my orks could prolly blast you off the table.

Just because you beat your kids brothers ultramarine tac spam list does not mean your list is viable.

As I said earlier guard fail miserably against paladins, as for dark eldar you want to explain how you bringing those lances to bear without your vehicles getting blown to pieces. And for orks, your only hope would be battlewagon spam.

Honestly, I think Imperial Weakling lists are tough. They get a lot of nasty ID and low AP weapons, including templates. But once you get close, and you will, they die in their droves, vehicles and troops both. I find games against guard can seem lost by turn 3 and yet can be won by turn 5 (though sometimes they're lost by turn 5 of course). Space Fairies are tough in a different way. It's not so much the lances, whicgh are pretty 'bitty' in their attacks, but the fact that you either restrict the mobility of their troops or reduce their lance attacks significantly by targeting the ravagers first, which can be a bit of a dilemma; and in assault, agonisers and high initiative do tend to hurt, as do multiple shardnets in a different sort of way. Haywire grenades are annoying too. but to suggest this list (indeed most decent paladin lists) is unable to cope with such armies betrays, in my view, either a lamentable ignorance of how the list can actually perform on the table when played decently or the prayer-like recitation of outmoded dogma - a sort of hopeful plea of denial to the gaming gods that one might not have to think a bit harder.

Orks definitely need several battlewagons with rollers. I've not yet played such a list but it could be nasty indeed.

The one sort of army I really thought would mince paladins is MSU mech marines with plenty of melta, but to my surprise, they're not too bad to face. partly, I think, because paladins (GK generally) excel against power armoured troops in assault. It's like playing against Imperial Weaklings fielding fewer units in a way. A 3 vindicator list (I've played against 2, not 3) could be fierce early doors, especially if they're fast vehicles as fielded by the red marines with overbites, but in the late game, if they survive, those templates often lack targets.

youbedead wrote:

Jubear wrote:I do not understand the point of the post.

Seems like OP just wants us to say nice things about his god awful list.

How this list is supposed to compete with nearly any army is beyond me.

IG would just smile and blast you from the the table top.

As I said earlier guard fail miserably against paladins

I would disagree. The guard can spam high str low ap. Termie armor is tough, plasma, melta, demolisher, and meduas eat termies for breakfast, and the last 3 cause id. Ive also had success with psyker battle squads using weaken resolve and then using a ap 2 weapons to cause a break test. Quite hiliaious to see paladins ,the best of the.best of the best, running from the "imperial weaklings".

As Nids, this list doesn't scare me that much. I think some Hive Guard should be able to focus down one of the Stormravens, and a lash whip / bonesword Warrior bomb with a Prime and a couple Carnifexes will eventually eat through the Paladins, and I don't think you have the shooting to wipe either the Warrior bomb, the Carnifexes, or the Hive Guard off of the board before they can eat at least one unit of Paladins and one of the ICs.

I could be horribly wrong though. Thoughts?

With nids, it is all about maximising SitW without psykers, so namely, warriors and variants, Trygon Primes and the Parasite.

This will be inevitably cheaper than Tyrants, Tervigons and and Zoanies, furthering the Tyr:GK model ratio. This makes it harder for the GK to win. It makes psychic powers harder to use, without the danger of psykout and Daemonbane that bogs down Tyrants and Tervigons, Zoanies, and Broodlords and the Doom to a lesser extent.


This will most definately make your army underpowered, but will win if used right.

I agree with the msu being perhaps the biggest challenge for this list. I personally play a variant on the 2011 adepticon 1st seed space wolf list. Which includes 6 fairly big Grey hunter units with 5 combi/fist wolf guard. As well as Nijal, 3 fang squads with missiles and 3/4 twin las razorbacks. Now i doubt my long fangs would last long but my razorbacks at least would down the ravens pretty quick. Now the strength of this army comes from the sheer mass of Grey hunters each squad with a standard, wolfen and fist with a melta and combi melta. This means while you could perhaps wipe out an entire squad or so, the volume of attacks from 50 marines with 5 power fist and a handful of wolfen models means that its not possible you could survive a full attack. That's not including their shooting and wolf standards. But that's only if i charge first and only charge only 1 of your squads.

50 marines with 5 power fist and a handful of wolfen models means that its not possible you could survive a full attack.

Yes, you have to concentrate on only one squad at a time really. But the Librarian makes multi-assaulting difficult sometimes with Sanctuary and it's surprising, especially in Seize Ground, how often even quite good players tend to not focus fire and assault to the extent they need to. Also, getting all 50 hunters into assauklt, regardless of Sanctuary is tough to do. I've lost to your sort of Howling/Whimpering marines a few times now (and beaten them a few times too, though I seem to struggle against them more than any other army, including mech-Weaklings) and a lot also depends on the efficiency of the priests' psychic hooding (which is generally what space wolf priests are reduced to with the presence of Reinforced Aegis and my Librarian's psychic hood).

I dont have the grey knights codex, but whats an reinforced aegis? And isnt a psychic hood ranged 24inchs? I ask so i can put your post in perspective.

And again Artemo, what is your defense against weaken resolve? Ive used it to cause palidans to break and run. Of coruse my opponent had them in the open, so they got hit with a demolisher shell then weaken resolve made their leadership 2. They ran, and where within six of a 'detta and couldnt regroup.

Reinforced Aegis is -4 LD to the psyker casting a power at the GK unit that is within 12" of a dreadnought. Thus, your PBS will be trying to cast WR at LD 4 or 5 (don't remember what their original LD is). On top of that, they have a chance to get hooded by a LD10 librarian. Their only advantage is that they have a longer 36" range (I think) than the hood.

Okay, scary then. And yes its 36in range. Still im not convinced that paladins are on par with mech guard. Too much low ap high str weapons

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Okay, scary then. And yes its 36in range. Still im not convinced that paladins are on par with mech guard. Too much low ap high str weapons

You also have to consider that you need to kill 3 models whch means 13 wounds to a 10 man squad in order to force morale wich means you need 47 plasma shots or 11 melta shots. Trust me I've seen the thirty paladin list i played against destroy three different mech guard lists. The only way you can win is if it's an objective mission with 4 or 5 objectives

And the point is that Paladins aren't unbeatable. No army is. The point is they will give any 'top tier' list a tough game with the outcome in doubt in any mission (except Annihilation, where a paladin list should beat any other list if played halfway competently).


but really, people who say 'oh I'll just bring x, y and z and you won't stand a chance' seem to me to be assuming quite a lot.

In fairness, there are some non-purpose built paladin killing (which are going to be rare, let's be honest as they won't often do well against other armies) lists I would definitely fear. One would be triple vindicators backing a melta heavy MSU marine line(some Salamander lists), though when the paladins reach that line, watch out... Imperial Weakling veteran air cavalry might be another but I haven't yet played one of these fielded by a really good player. I hope to soon.

Imperial Weakling armour is nasty, as I've said above. But it's not winning a disproportionate number of games against me as yet.

Evil Space Fairy lance spam has tabled me once in the early days of my list (when I actually had a land raider rather than a 'raven). But I've soundly beaten the same list on a few occasions now. The biggest problem I find is the tarpit ability of archons with their 2++ shields accompanying wyches with shardnets. they can often hold up a paladin squad for a couple of turns, which makes Seize Ground games hard.

Vampire-wannabe Marines - I've been surprised how ineffective they've been to be honest. But if they too three fast vindicators... even two... that could give them an edge they seem to be rather lacking.

Werewolf-wannabes - again are tough. Mainly because they have all sorts of targets that are either a danger (eg long fangs) or an interference (priests' hoods) but none that really stand out as a major menace above the others, so prioritistaion is harder. The one place I don't fear them (bar a specific terminator build with a specific character) is in assault so long as I can eliminate the pesky priests first. An awful lot depends on specific decision making by each player.

I thought paladins where t4. So all you got to do is hit them with 3 melta wounds right. Then you force a break test at ld2 if weaken resolve goes off. Ive played a paladin list. Wasnt impressed, they got hammered by my demolisher and meltas, got weaken resolved and ran. Maybe dice gods looked down in favor of me. It sounds like a hard list, but personaly i dont think its all that great, too few things to shoot at, lets me focus fire on them.

And as for the name calling. At least i dont play as a bunch of mary sues.

Oh come now, there's no harm in having pet names for one's foes, surely?

Yes.

All you have to do is inflict three melta hits on a squad that doesn't contain Draigo and it will take a leadership test that it will pass 5/6 of the time. Actually the damage that such a melta strike would inflict over two turns makes the leadership test redundant. paladins can and do fail leadership. That doesn't make them easy to beat. I mean your veteran squad with the three meltas isn't going to respond well to the 7 casualties they'll take from a very average turn of shooting from 5 paladins, is it? Or from the incinerator template a dreadnought will paste on them. It's all very well to assume you'll get the drop and all will go well? But what if they get the drop on you?

Seriously, I've played Imperial Weakling lists and I haven't been impressed as I've beaten them

But then I've also played the same Imperial Weakling lists and been beaten them.

Paladin lists need, I think, more careful handling by their player than some other lists do. They are typical of a list where the troops are so powerful individually that it's easy for a player to get suckered into thinking they will win the game by themselves with little tactical consideration from the player. Actually, I think, it's the mob armies where the individuals are relatively crap where that is more true.

I meant to post the orkicon sticking its tongue out, i was only jokeing. But yeah its a good list, and my local metagame dosent run dragowings often, so i will addmit that the player might not be as experienced with draigowing as he could be. I respect the paladins, but i think i could take them. But then marines arnt scary to me. But best of luck to you. You run draigowing at ard boyz? Rumor is that their will be 2 of them at my ard boys location, both played by gw corperate employees. Some ethics right.

I really cant see the firepower that paladins bring to the table being anywhere near enough to combat an infantry guard army, they just don't roll enough dice and a good guard player will be in cover for a majority of the shooting until delivering the charge of dozens of rerolling power weapon attacks.

Pallies do have a heavy advantage of force concentration and their best bet is sticking the whole army together against infantry guard.
but without being able to sweep a good guard players should be able to hold them in combat and not lose any victory points for a majority of the game, just take a wound on a commisar when the squad runs low, pallies can't sweep, and order/rally the unit the next turn to go melta the unit and take a walk. break combat intelligently and you can melta/lascannon the squad multiple times which I know has supprised several of my opponents that I would sac the squads commisar to break combat and light the squad up only to run the same unit back in and surround them again.

I'll also echo that many guard players picked it up when leafblower was auto-win against many lists and are pretty bad.

also to note, I do love how paladins are a totally different kind of army that really throws some lists for a loop (much like horde lists SHOULD but have other issues to combat, mostly game time and themselves)

Grundz wrote:I really cant see the firepower that paladins bring to the table being anywhere near enough to combat an infantry guard army, they just don't roll enough dice and a good guard player will be in cover for a majority of the shooting until delivering the charge of dozens of rerolling power weapon attacks.

Pallies do have a heavy advantage of force concentration and their best bet is sticking the whole army together against infantry guard.
but without being able to sweep a good guard players should be able to hold them in combat and not lose any victory points for a majority of the game, just take a wound on a commisar when the squad runs low, pallies can't sweep, and order/rally the unit the next turn to go melta the unit and take a walk. break combat intelligently and you can melta/lascannon the squad multiple times which I know has supprised several of my opponents that I would sac the squads commisar to break combat and light the squad up only to run the same unit back in and surround them again.

I'll also echo that many guard players picked it up when leafblower was auto-win against many lists and are pretty bad.

also to note, I do love how paladins are a totally different kind of army that really throws some lists for a loop (much like horde lists SHOULD but have other issues to combat, mostly game time and themselves)

The main problem with pallies against I.G. is the large number of target when you only have 3-4 units. This could be countered by close in deep striking or better yet outflanking. I can say that 20 paladins appearing right next to you is not fun for any list. Some clever multicharges and you can wipe out large portions of the army