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Well I would kinda like my primary tank buster to live past the first round yh :p

To tell the truth, seeing as I have only recently started back up with 40k, I'm still quite fuzzy with the rules. What makes it so that the pistol allows for an assault move phase that isnt into combat?


Edit: Sorry for the mild derailing, tell me to off whenever :p

Oh no, I don't think you're derailing at all.

I like the vindicare but I don't think he meshes well with the 'almost always reserve everything' philosophy of the list, though as stated, he could be Outflanked or hidden and use his pistol after moving. The pistol just allows you to fire after moving and then assault if you want, whereas the rifle means you can't move or assault.

Regarding Grey Therion's point about more competitive armies, in general I play against people with pretty competitive lists (not always, but generally). I find that, although decent players, and experienced, they will make mistakes against a paladin list, generally because they tend to underestimate its killing power and overestimate their ability to kill it. I'm not sure quite why this should be but players/lists against whom I struggle with MSU mech marines, struggle massively against this list, even if both 'ravens are taken out early. Once the paladins are in assault, the enemy is basically reacting. With regard to psykers: you know which vehicle they are in. It is priority target number one. Once destroyed, the psyker is target number one. Marine psykers with the typical Null Zone/Gate are nasty if they survive, but I'd say only Vindicators in a marine list are a higher priority target.

I'm considering in future running the venerable dreadnoughts as:

multi-melta, heavy flamer, psyflame at 190 points each, freeing up 30 points which I'm not quite certain what to do with, but I think the multi-melta might actually work better in this list than the 'psycannon'.

I like that idea. AP 1 makes a big difference. Your list can get damage results aplenty, but more AP 1 can reliably get you destroyed results.

30 points won't get you much other than some Psybolt Ammunition though. You could also Master Craft your Psycannons and Daemon Hammers, as those are the things you want to hit most reliably.

Also, why do you use Plasma Cannons on the Stormravens? I'm not really a big fan of them, and I'm curious why you'd give them up for Lascannons or Assault Cannons, given that the PC can't help against vehicles, but the Las or AC can be used to get you another vehicle kill with PotMS. With the way most people play against blasts in my experience, you won't get much out of that I would think.


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a_h_d wrote:What makes it so that the pistol allows for an assault move phase that isnt into combat?

I don't know where you got that from. I was simply saying you can outflank and still use the pistol, as you can move and shoot with pistols. I just said it twice.

Artemo wrote: The pistol just allows you to fire after moving and then assault if you want,

Good gravy, when would it ever be a good idea to assault with a Vindicare.

Note: I know you weren't suggesting that as something awesome to do, I just considered it such an oddity to even hear it that I commented.

Becasue he has Int 7,WS 8,and a 4++ with FNP on a 6.It woukld be a situational thing,such as a unit trying to assault through cover but failed his DT testy,and couldn't.The vindicare can fire his pistol after moving away,or move in close to take a model down with a hellfire before finisj=hing the 1 or 2 left.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Artemo wrote: The pistol just allows you to fire after moving and then assault if you want,

Good gravy, when would it ever be a good idea to assault with a Vindicare.

Note: I know you weren't suggesting that as something awesome to do, I just considered it such an oddity to even hear it that I commented.

He's S4 with 5 attacks on the charge. If he gets a damage result on a vehicle such as some IG artillery, but doesn't destroy it (especially if he gets an Immobolized result), he can get a bit more damage on it, probably be out of position to be shot at, get another 4 attacks in the opponent's turn, and probably have a chance to glance it to death.

Now, it won't happen all the time, but if anything he can get some free movement out of it.

Vindicare can be good in cc if he needs to be but for the grey knights he fills that vital role of taking out high AC tanks that Draigowing can have a tough time with. He can also pick off the guys with weapons that can hurt your paladins.

Thanks for the clarification of the pistol rules guys and the almost minimal noob bashing :p

I suppose if your dropping your dread and your paladins close to the enemy (deepstrike, move 12", assault ramp for Terminators so 2", then assault 6" I believe, but again please correct me if I'm wrong :p) then a melta might work as it would add extra tank busting/ heavy duty unit softening power to the army. In my list at least those 30 points per dread could mean a banner and one MC weapon in each squad or a extra psycannon plus 2 MC weapons per squad. Then with 3 tank busters the meltas could be dropped from the Ravens and heavy bolters brought back for more of an anti-unit capability, whilst keeping the twin linked lascannons for any emergency tank duty (flyer's can move 12 and shoot both mains at separate targets right????) Course those 30 points could also be taken as hurricane bolters for a but more anti infantry but that would depend on how much you can shoot which a move that allows the assault ramp to be used.

Also, why do you use Plasma Cannons on the Stormravens?

Basically because they are AP2. Okay, most often the enemy will get a cover save but in general one will clip two models with a hit and one will fail its armour save. one dead against almost any troops.

With assault cannon, say you get 3 wounds. That's 1 kill against MEQ, 1.5 against GEQ and 0.5 kills against TEQ.

And while certainly an enemy will often spread out, if you catch deepstrikers then you're going to do some damage and in some terrain troops must cluster together. The assault cannon is much better against light armour of course but the list has 6 psycannon already (4 if the venerable dreadnoughts carry multi-melta).

I prefer a TL LC,for it can be almost guarenteed a kill against just about anybody.It is deadly to light vehicles as well.The MM is by far the best option for firepower.24" move and a rear amrour shot melta-ing the rear value of 10?Thank you for flying Air Awesomeness.

Ive faced a similar list to this but with the liby, draig and a few paladins in a land raider. Ill admit that this kind of list is shockingly effective even when throwing everything at it. Id expect to see more of this kinda list in all the big tourneys. My advice would be to shoot the ravens and keep away from the troops. But the only weakness i can see is to other reserve type armies.

In a reserve army vs reserve army scenario,it is whoever goes second who wins,because they dro0p next to the enemy who have dropped a few moments ago,and then fire on the guysm who did nothing.

I do not understand the point of the post.

Seems like OP just wants us to say nice things about his god awful list.

How this list is supposed to compete with nearly any army is beyond me.

IG would just smile and blast you from the the table top.

DE would just smile and lance you from the table.

Hell my orks could prolly blast you off the table.

Just because you beat your kids brothers ultramarine tac spam list does not mean your list is viable.

What the Op wants to avoid is the sort of knee-jerk response that says 'oh this army has too few models/scoring units, etyc, etc). the OP has no probklem with people giving reasoned opinions (as you would know had you bothered to read through the thread), only with blatantly knee-jerk reactions based on neither evidence nor argument. The OP has beaten good players with this list and has no kid brother to beat. The OP thanks you for your post but is afraid it fails to such an epic degree I understand Ridley Scott is considering making a film about it.

I've beaten all those armies you list played by good players ( ie people who would expect to beat me when I play my MSU mech marine list with which I have somewhat more experience). Guard are actually tough but DE one of the easier 'top tier' armies to beat, which will surprise you, doubtless. Orks just die. Horribly. (If you'd had the courtesy to back your opinions with a little gaming evidence, I'd go into more depth here but as you haven't, I won't bother either).

Just because you make assumptions doesn't make them true.

I think people over look the strength of this army. This type of army is pretty much a deathwing army but without any of its weaknesses. Now if the you think about it, deathwing armies are fairly hard, 20-25 terminates deepstriking in etc. The only problem comes from the terminators being split into separate units which makes it difficult to co-ordinate attacks. What a draig. wing army does is concentrate its strength into smaller units, this makes it more effective and harder to counter. To put it another way, this army is the equivalent to 20+ uber hard terminators followed by 2 dreds zooming in to pretty much any point on the board. The fact that this guy is probably going to start on turn 2 which means that youve only got 3 rounds of shooting... no where near enough to stop 10 paladins.

I agree.

I play a similar list - not quite as well tweaked, I think - against a very wide range of opposing players, some who have very bad lists to some with very strong ones, some with a feel for the game and solid experience, others who treat it more as just 'fun'. Even taking games against only the half dozen or so 'serious players', I find that even Imperial Guard struggle to bring enough firepower to bear over 3-4 turns, though there is a very nasty air-cav list that I haven't played yet. While I wouldn't say that a Draigo list like this is some kind of super-amazing army that automatically wins, I don't think Artemo is saying that either, just that it's not a build easy to beat whatever you field against it. And that's my experience. Even my most regular opponent acknowledges he's pretty much before deployment lost if we roll Annihilation and only feels confident in either Capture/Control or 4/5 objective Seize Ground - though he's only beaten me in Capture and Control at 1500 points and has yet to win any mission at 2000 which is where I think the list really comes into its own.


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I used to play wargames of all sorts against Artemo when we were kids in our teens and 20s. He was better than me at most games and he's a solid tactician.

Feeling somewhat less tetchy than I did this morning, I'd like to expand a little on what I think this list, properly played, can do. I have actually said this earlier but people don't often seem to read threads.

First, as Blood as said, i am not claiming this as some sort of uber-kill-everything list. It isn't. All good lists will lose sometimes and even bad lists will win sometimes. Partly that dpeneds on the players, partly on 'battle conditions' and very rarely on luck.

If you play this list badly against a decent list played well then you will lose almost certainly. It is not a list with uch room for error. But if you play this list properly, you will only be tabled by a fluke, whatever Imperial Weakling and Space Fairy worshippers may claim to the contrary. And if you're not tabled, then you might well win in any scenario (and you will in Annihiilation) and should expect at least a draw (though you may lose of course because you might meet a better player).

Now it's my opinion that for the 3 'basic' deployments and missions, this list, combined with the correct tactics is better than any other Draigo-list as an all-comers force. This hinges on the 'two units' concept, something that other lists will lack and so they either must deploy at game start or risk coming on piecemeal, either of which exposes them to more fire, and that isn't good. It's massed AP1 and 2 ID fire and (massed) power weapon and ID assault that kills paladins. The 'ravens give you the speed and protection to get within assault range on your turn of entry (unless your enemy hangs way, way back with all his units, which presents him with its own disadvantages and is something that's unlikely in the only missions you're likely to fail to win (the objective ones).

Almost everyone I play started by dismissing this list almost out of hand as some people have done on this thread.

If you think you have a better Draigo list, then let's talk, I'm very open to positive suggestions for improvement or for testing variations or alternatives that keep the 'all paladins as troops' theme.

If you want to say how you think you'd counter this list played with these tactics, then I'm actually very interested in that. It's only the knee-jerk dogma-spouting that I can do without.

I'll try and do the (much weaker) 1500 point variant tomorrow but I've had less time this week than I hoped.

And thanks to the people who have made solid contributions to this thread, even (perhaps especially) to those who doubt the inherent merits of the list.

Ironically, I think one of your Draigowing toughest challenge may be against another GK army - Crowe-purifier-dread list with the Vindicare. 4 dreads, 1 vindicare, 5 squads of purifiers and Crowe. Vindicare may try to 1-shot the librarian to death....or he'll just take away Draigo's and warding stave invuln's. Dreads will pop ravens and then concentrate on either the pallies or ven's. Finally, the purifiers will try to get the charge with psyk-out grenades on the paladins, but not before they shoot them down a bit.

That'll be interesting. Who knows, you may even see a Crowe-purifier-vs-Draigowing battle in my Ard Boyz Semi-finals thread.

Totally. As you say, they have the tools at hand - especially if the opponent realises the big danger is the Librarian, not Draigo.

I've actually beaten a hybrid Crowe list featuring Strikes and a GM but it had dreadknights instead of dreadnoughts which was a big plus in my favour. The assassin had one of those games where nothing worked for him. (which is one reason I'm sceptical about Assassins at 2000 pts and below - at 2500 it's worth a knock with them, I think).

I'm making a paladin list to play in the big 2500 point matches we do at my flgs. Draigo is actually not included in this list, as i wanted to try and combat the low-model count issue with hechman warbands. If you could let me know what you think, i'd really appreciate it.

HQ

Corteaz, 100pts

Librarian with Mot, quicksilver and shrouding. Has a MCed sword. 170pts.

total hq cost- 270pts.

Elites

5 paladins, w/2 psycannons, 2 hammers, 2 swords, and banner. 340pts. Libby goes with these.

5 paladins, w/2 psycannons, 2 halberds, 1 sword, 1 hammer, banner. 340pts.

5 paladins, w/2 psycannons, 2 halberds, 1 sword, 2 hammers. 315pts.

total eilites cost- 995pts.

Troops

3 acolytes w/ meltaguns in razorback, psibolt. 87pts.

3 acolytes w/ meltaguns in razorback, psibolt. 87pts.

3 acolytes w/ meltaguns in razorback, psibolt. 87pts.

3 acolytes w/ meltaguns in razorback, psibolt. 87pts.

total troops cost- 348pts.

Fast Attack

Stormraven w/ multimelta and assault cannon. 205pts.

Stormraven w/ multimelta and assault cannon. 205pts.

Stormraven w/ multimelta and assault cannon. 205pts.

total fast attack cost- 615pts.

Heavy Support

Dreadnought with 2 TL autocannons and psybolt. 135pts.

Dreadnought with 2 TL autocannons and psybolt. 135pts.

total cost for heavy support- 270pts.

Total costs- 2498pts.

This is what i'm thinking of bringing. I'm not sure where to put corteaz, but i figured that the henchmen would help fight model count issues and help me in objective games. But combat dreads do intrest me. Do they have to be venerble? I know it's not really a draigo list, but it has plenty of paladins. Any critisism is welcome.

I would drop the 3rd SR, for more Paladins or troops. 3 man squads are not that hard to shift from objectives, the exception being Paladins (and Termies, to a lesser extent). However, you have not got Draigo, and this makes Paladins Elites. I would make the 3rd paladin squad into a troops Terminators( with swords, staves and guns) for objective holding, and exchange the 3rd raven for a Purgator Squad.

Join up Cortez with this Squad,and place him so he covers as much area as possible( the "I've been expecting you" can be devastating)

I should say first of all that I'm no fan of mixing in Imperial Weaklings into any list. That doesn't mean I think the list is bad, just I have never and would never play anything like it so I'll just contrast it with my list.

First you immediately give up the virtual auto-win in Annihilation in exchange for one more scoring units (I'd run 3 paladin units and 3 stormravens at 2500 most times) I offer 8 KPs at 2000, and 10 if I ran a 2500 list), you offer 18. You do have a lot more melta, but to use it you have to get your weak scoring units well forward and out their vehicles. they might therefore be better in Chimeras as they have fire points.

The difference at 2500 would be

Coteaz for Draigo. I think Coteaz is a decent and pretty cheap HQ, but Draigo does the work of a full terminator squad and more.
You have no warding stave on your Librarian. I think he's too exposed in close combat if the enemy know's what he's doing and 4++ won't cut it.
You have two banners on your paladins, which is useful but I have 3 staves, 1 per squad. I live longer in assault. You do more damage (but I think I do enough...)
You have 4 good cheap mobile units that lack resiliancy, and one more scoring unit.
You have assault cannon on your 'ravens. I have plasma. Personal choice.
You have two dreadnoughts, I have 2 venerables.

You can't really all reserve so either your Weaklings (who are your scoring units) and Dreadnoughts face the full force of the enemy for 2 turns, or you have no cover save for your 'ravens on the first turn and will probably lose them all if you don't go first...

I'd have to play your list a few times to work round these problems that I would have running it.

Artemo wrote:I should say first of all that I'm no fan of mixing in Imperial Weaklings into any list. That doesn't mean I think the list is bad, just I have never and would never play anything like it so I'll just contrast it with my list.

First you immediately give up the virtual auto-win in Annihilation in exchange for one more scoring units (I'd run 3 paladin units and 3 stormravens at 2500 most times) I offer 8 KPs at 2000, and 10 if I ran a 2500 list), you offer 18. You do have a lot more melta, but to use it you have to get your weak scoring units well forward and out their vehicles. they might therefore be better in Chimeras as they have fire points.

The difference at 2500 would be

Coteaz for Draigo. I think Coteaz is a decent and pretty cheap HQ, but Draigo does the work of a full terminator squad and more.
You have no warding stave on your Librarian. I think he's too exposed in close combat if the enemy know's what he's doing and 4++ won't cut it.
You have two banners on your paladins, which is useful but I have 3 staves, 1 per squad. I live longer in assault. You do more damage (but I think I do enough...)
You have 4 good cheap mobile units that lack resiliancy, and one more scoring unit.
You have assault cannon on your 'ravens. I have plasma. Personal choice.
You have two dreadnoughts, I have 2 venerables.

You can't really all reserve so either your Weaklings (who are your scoring units) and Dreadnoughts face the full force of the enemy for 2 turns, or you have no cover save for your 'ravens on the first turn and will probably lose them all if you don't go first...

I'd have to play your list a few times to work round these problems that I would have running it.

The libby has a sword, increasing his invunerable to a 3++ in cc, which i think is good enough. I started off with the henchmen in chimeras, but i felt that razorbacks with fortitude would be better. It's also cheaper. I appreciate your advice a lot. What i'm getting from you is to add draigo, staves>banner, and lose some killpoints. How could i go about this?

loota boy wrote:What i'm getting from you is to add draigo, staves>banner, and lose some killpoints. How could i go about this?

Answer:

loota boy wrote:add draigo, staves>banner, and lose some killpoints

Put in Draigo to make paladins troops, and give them staves and banners. Simple.

The sword gives the Librarian 4++ in assault which with him having only 2 wounds and T4 isn't, in my opinion, good enough for the most useful man in your force.

I'm not saying you should take Draigo over Coteaz, just that although Coteaz is very good value, Draigo is, I think, better value for a paladin list (and actually for any list where you would take a GM, but that's a different issue).

I think once you go Coteaz, then you really should probably maximise Weakling squads, and that would mean replacing paladins with Death Cult Assassin/Crusader units, maybe lead by Techmarines with warding staves and grenades. Doing that would free up points previously devoted to paladins for more and venerabkle dreadnoughts. But you've no longer got a paladin list of any sort then. I just think it's the logical endpoint once you start down the Weakling road. Assassin/Crusader units operating out of stormravens would be pretty mean, and moreso led by a tachmarine with rad and psycho grenades...

But if you want to run Draigo and paladins, I recommend the list in the OP buttressed by another 'raven and another paladin squad, maybe dropping a dreadnought to buy a techmarine and the 40 other points needed.

Aw damn, there i go, thinking that the libby has an iron halo.. Why on earth didn't they give him one...?

The thing is, i've already bought some paladins and henchmen, and i hate wasting money... *sigh* i guess i will go full henchman.. thanks anyway though.

How about psyker battle squads using weaken resolve, then using ap2 to cause enough wounds for a break test with av 12 "escorting" them off the table? I know they have the agesis but would anything else stop psykers.

Do you think it's worth it to give warding staves to Paladin Justicars?

I brought Draigo with Paladin Apothecary + warding stave and another Paladin with a warding stave to a 500 pt match against Nids and the warding staves were vital to fend off perils caused by Shadow of the Warp (I won (as always)). 2+ armour save or 2++/3++ invulnerability saves followed by 4+ FNP -> hilariously tough.

The benefits I see are that there is great defence against Perils if and only if you're in close combat, which might be half the time if you're casting Hammerhand.

I don't see a downside, as the Justicar has no special property to preserve - if he dies another just like him takes his place (ie. having to take melta shots and lascannon shots is not a downside).

I've always thought to field a Justicar with a sword for Perils, but if I'm taking a warding stave am I right in saying it is best put on the Justicar?

Yeah. Daemonbane, psykout grenades, the GK in general.

Sethorly wrote:Do you think it's worth it to give warding staves to Paladin Justicars?

I brought Draigo with Paladin Apothecary + warding stave and another Paladin with a warding stave to a 500 pt match against Nids and the warding staves were vital to fend off perils caused by Shadow of the Warp (I won (as always)). 2+ armour save or 2++/3++ invulnerability saves followed by 4+ FNP -> hilariously tough.

The benefits I see are that there is great defence against Perils if and only if you're in close combat, which might be half the time if you're casting Hammerhand.

I don't see a downside, as the Justicar has no special property to preserve - if he dies another just like him takes his place (ie. having to take melta shots and lascannon shots is not a downside).

I've always thought to field a Justicar with a sword for Perils, but if I'm taking a warding stave am I right in saying it is best put on the Justicar?

The stave doesn't work like that. It only gives you the save against wounds caused from close combat attacks; it won't protect you from perils. Plus, only 1 model in a paladin squad is allowed to take a stave.


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@ Artemo:

You said your list seems to destroy Dark Eldar more often than not? Is there anyway you could post a general list of what those DE usually use? I've been watching them tear gk paladin lists apart over here; I would love to compare the DE lists since yours is very close to what the gks in my area are using