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Brother Coa wrote:
Technology is not much when you are overwhelmed with enemies from all sides ( Germans in WW2 ). And Imperium can react fast, just see Nimbosa - Black Templars arrived just in nick of time and turn the tide. And why would Imperium attack Tau Empire when they have bigger treats right now ( like Tau are more important then Chaos or Tyranids anyway... ).

The BT arrived really late at nimbrosa. They weren't there when the tau invaded and killed everyone. 4 months latter the IG tried to take the planet back and the tau killed them all again. The BT didn't even make it before bright sword was recalled for killing everyone. That is a slow response. I feel the need to post this because you keep bringing up nimbrosa and you keep getting the facts wrong.

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

The Crusade was an utter failure. Being stopped as soon as it reached it's first Sept world, on its first encounter with a sizeable Tau force.

Edit: By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

That's under the assumption that they can defeat the force that throws them off of their planet. They aren't fantastic in Space battles after all.
Terra is far too important, there's certainly nothing wrong with sending every available force to defend it. Its far too important to lose due to lack of forces.


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DivineSausage wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

The Crusade was an utter failure. Being stopped as soon as it reached it's first Sept world, on its first encounter with a sizeable Tau force.

Stopped? The Imperium was making headway before they were recalled, as per Savage Scars. Granted they weren't doing fantastically, but they were winning slowly but surely. The fact that is reached one of the Tau's major planets certainly isn't a 'fail'. It was a tiny Crusade. If the Tau are so capable they shouldn't have allowed it to get there in the first place.

TrollPie wrote:
Technology is extremely important in these circumstances. A single machine gun could hold a pass againt waves of spear-armed tribesmen, a single Titan could hold a pass against waves of Orks...

That is true, but I will just quote Kan "Yes, 1 Hammerhead could nail down 1 Leman Russ, to bed the other 12 will nail down that Hammerhead."
What you said was true, but both Titan and Machine Gun would be overwhelmed in the end because of the sheer numbers existing in 40k ( I mean just see at Orks and Tyranids, they are numberless. Humans to.. ). Like Germans in WW2, 1 Tiger is stronger then 1 T-34, but on one Tiger came 20 T-34's.

That's a major flaw in Imperial tactics. They place too much importance on territory. If a regiment of Vostroyans held the enemy off so the rest could evacute, it would save lives. If they decided to stand their ground and be annihalated, it would be a waste. If trillions of Guardsmen headed back to defend Terra, the Imperium would be destroyed by the sudden loss of manpower-if they instead sent a more proportionate number to combat the threat, the Astronomican wouldn't fall and the Imperium wouldn't be left defenseless. If Cadia was going to fall, evacuation would serve more purpose than a heroic last stand.
The Tau will willingly give up planets so their army can better prepare themeselves and save more than they would otherwise lose- even if it meant a beloved planet such as T'au would be destroyed. After all, once the threat is dealt with they can get the planet back. If they faced annihalation, they could evacuate in Craft World-esque ships. Numbers matter far more to Tau than territory.

That is. But I was talking about civilian population... And of course, every man would die for his homeplanet. And every Human would die for Terra.

The DGC is a total continuity snarl. Depending on what you read, you will find completely different force lists and results. Some accounts say that the IoM took 2 regiments and flatten the tau. Others will give the IG 17 regiments a titan and still have them lose so badly that they leave there people behind. It all depends on what version you read.

DivineSausage wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

Edit: By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

That's until they retook the planet, right?

nomotog wrote:
The BT arrived really late at nimbrosa. They weren't there when the tau invaded and killed everyone. 4 months latter the IG tried to take the planet back and the tau killed them all again. The BT didn't even make it before bright sword was recalled for killing everyone. That is a slow response. I feel the need to post this because you keep bringing up nimbrosa and you keep getting the facts wrong.

Oh, I always tought that BT arrived when Tau started killing civilians. My bad...that was really slow then.
But 13'th Black Crusade and 3'rd Armageddon war was quick response by the Imeprium.


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DivineSausage wrote:By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

Yeah, but that BrightSword was a LITTLE Xenofobic. I mean killing every last men, woman and child that can't fight back was all for the Grater Good, right?

iproxtaco wrote:Stopped? The Imperium was making headway before they were recalled, as per Savage Scars. Granted they weren't doing fantastically, but they were winning slowly but surely. The fact that is reached one of the Tau's major planets certainly isn't a 'fail'. It was a tiny Crusade. If the Tau are so capable they shouldn't have allowed it to get there in the first place.

"The crusade fought its way across Dal'yth Prime but were gradually worn down by the Tau until they found themselves stalemated a long way from their bases." - Tau Codex

The Tau then negotiated with the Imperium, allowing them to leave and reclaimed all lost territory.

Again codex vs. BL novel... Why can't people work together when writing stuff?

Brother Coa wrote:

DivineSausage wrote:By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

Yeah, but that BrightSword was a LITTLE Xenofobic. I mean killing every last men, woman and child that can't fight back was all for the Grater Good, right?

Granted he was hardcore. But considering he took the colony then fought off the 1st counter attack is wasn't a victory for the IoM.

iproxtaco wrote:

DivineSausage wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

Edit: By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

That's until they retook the planet, right?

My codex stops talking after brightsword gets recalled. I believe there is a book that describes the BT taking back the planet.

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
The BT arrived really late at nimbrosa. They weren't there when the tau invaded and killed everyone. 4 months latter the IG tried to take the planet back and the tau killed them all again. The BT didn't even make it before bright sword was recalled for killing everyone. That is a slow response. I feel the need to post this because you keep bringing up nimbrosa and you keep getting the facts wrong.

Oh, I always tought that BT arrived when Tau started killing civilians. My bad...that was really slow then.
But 13'th Black Crusade and 3'rd Armageddon war was quick response by the Imeprium.


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DivineSausage wrote:By all accounts the IoM were slaughtered at Nimbosa as well.

Yeah, but that BrightSword was a LITTLE Xenofobic. I mean killing every last men, woman and child that can't fight back was all for the Grater Good, right?

Probably because the eastern fringe is on the fringe. You never get good responses out in the wild.

Ya brightsword is a real evil guy (he is farsights apprentice). I believe most accounts end with him being killed by the tau. Some have sadowsun killing him, some have the tau sending a kill team after him. He is kind of the exception that proves the rule.

DivineSausage wrote:
Granted he was hardcore. But considering he took the colony then fought off the 1st counter attack is wasn't a victory for the IoM.

True, but he was not as hardcore as Black Templars who retake the planet in shorter time it takes the Tau to conquer it.

iproxtaco wrote:
Stopped? The Imperium was making headway before they were recalled, as per Savage Scars. Granted they weren't doing fantastically, but they were winning slowly but surely. The fact that is reached one of the Tau's major planets certainly isn't a 'fail'. It was a tiny Crusade. If the Tau are so capable they shouldn't have allowed it to get there in the first place.

The ground campaign was a stalemate - they were advancing but not really 'winning'. What did them in was fleet situation, Imperial fleet was badly hammered and not fit for another round of combat.

Of course, after the Crusade, Tau Empire has grown about twice as large and militarily much more capable, particularly in regards of spacefleet.

Brother Coa wrote:

DivineSausage wrote:
Granted he was hardcore. But considering he took the colony then fought off the 1st counter attack is wasn't a victory for the IoM.

True, but he was not as hardcore as Black Templars who retake the planet in shorter time it takes the Tau to conquer it.

Fresh faced BT against war-weary commanderless Tau? Hardly a fair fight

Seriously though I know the BT took it back quickly and efficiently but I still think it can be counted as a victory for the IoM. All I'm saying, it certainly wasn't a victory for the Tau.

Brother Coa wrote:

DivineSausage wrote:
Granted he was hardcore. But considering he took the colony then fought off the 1st counter attack is wasn't a victory for the IoM.

True, but he was not as hardcore as Black Templars who retake the planet in shorter time it takes the Tau to conquer it.

You have any actual base for that statement or are you just saying things?

DivineSausage wrote:
Fresh faced BT against war-weary commanderless Tau? Hardly a fair fight

"Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison." - Lexicanum, Nimbosa Crusade.

You are wrong ... they had leaders until Matt Ward chosen ones make short work of them

Brother Coa wrote:"Meanwhile, the Ultramarines first company smashed into the defending Tau garrison, eliminating the Tau's anti air turrets and making short work of the Tau leaders. The campaign ended with the successful recapture of Nimbosa and the destruction of the entire Tau garrison." - Lexicanum, Nimbosa Crusade.

You are wrong ... they had leaders until Matt Ward chosen ones make short work of them

I meant Brightsword. The eager beaver who gunned every thing down in the 1st place.

I thought it was BT who took it back? (see this is what I mean by snarl)

nomotog wrote:
You have any actual base for that statement or are you just saying things?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nimbosa_Crusade

While Tau slowly destroyed every stronghold inch by inch Black Templars assaulted space station with lighting speed while Ultramarines Terminators teleported ( supposedly ) and take care of anti-air and Tau commanders. I call that faster.

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
You have any actual base for that statement or are you just saying things?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nimbosa_Crusade

While Tau slowly destroyed every stronghold inch by inch Black Templars assaulted space station with lighting speed while Ultramarines Terminators teleported ( supposedly ) and take care of anti-air and Tau commanders. I call that faster.

That is fast. I kind of have to put a question mark on the lexicanum's account of things. It seems that there where only two attacks. The one where the tau took the planet and the one where ths IoM counter attacked. In the tau codex the IoM is killed off in the second attack. Mean while the lexicanum says that the SMs killed all the tau in the second attack. So who knows how it worked out. Like I said. It's all one big snarl.

Well then it's settled. While the IoM is militarily stronger than the Tau they are yet to achieve a total victory against them.

DivineSausage wrote:Well then it's settled. While the IoM is militarily stronger than the Tau they are yet to achieve a total victory against them.

This will never be settled. Not even after it's settled.

nomotog wrote:
That is fast. I kind of have to put a question mark on the lexicanum's account of things. It seems that there where only two attacks. The one where the tau took the planet and the one where ths IoM counter attacked. In the tau codex the IoM is killed off in the second attack. Mean while the lexicanum says that the SMs killed all the tau in the second attack. So who knows how it worked out. Like I said. It's all one big snarl.

Actually there were 3 battles.

1'st one were Tau slaughtered everyone.
2'nd one were Tau slaughtered Imperial Fist and
3'rd one were Black Templars and Ultramarines slaughtered Tau.

I to didn't know until today that Ultramarine Terminator were there to...

This again?

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
That is fast. I kind of have to put a question mark on the lexicanum's account of things. It seems that there where only two attacks. The one where the tau took the planet and the one where ths IoM counter attacked. In the tau codex the IoM is killed off in the second attack. Mean while the lexicanum says that the SMs killed all the tau in the second attack. So who knows how it worked out. Like I said. It's all one big snarl.

Actually there were 3 battles.

1'st one were Tau slaughtered everyone.
2'nd one were Tau slaughtered Imperial Fist and
3'rd one were Black Templars and Ultramarines slaughtered Tau.

I to didn't know until today that Ultramarine Terminator were there to...

That makes sense. just the lexicon dosen't say that, so I am not trusting it on this topic.

There were indeed 3 battles on Nimbosa. As stated, Tau conquering, Tau defending, Tau pushed off world.

The forcec (nids, orks, varios xenos, etc. etc.) the Tau hold of is grater then the damage the Taus cause. The tau are described as the most peacful nation in the galaxy. And the fuel and effort the IoM would have too put in to extermiate the Tau is much grater then the Reward. Cource, they could V-bomb them or exterminatus them but that would ruin the worlds wich they came for in the frist place.

MrTau wrote:The forcec (nids, orks, varios xenos, etc. etc.) the Tau hold of is grater then the damage the Taus cause. The tau are described as the most peacful nation in the galaxy. And the fuel and effort the IoM would have too put in to extermiate the Tau is much grater then the Reward. Cource, they could V-bomb them or exterminatus them but that would ruin the worlds wich they came for in the frist place.

I am eager to hear the full results of the latest expansion phase. I may dust off my Tau with the next codex. They certainly are slightly out of place compared to the other races.

MrTau wrote:The forcec (nids, orks, varios xenos, etc. etc.) the Tau hold of is grater then the damage the Taus cause. The tau are described as the most peacful nation in the galaxy. And the fuel and effort the IoM would have too put in to extermiate the Tau is much grater then the Reward. Cource, they could V-bomb them or exterminatus them but that would ruin the worlds wich they came for in the frist place.

Exactly, the Imperium don't want to destroy the Tau because that would require forces that are needed elsewhere. So Imperium is trying by all means to keep peace with them. But Tau Empire have broken that peace treaty in several occasions, and Imperium has always used a little force and after that try to implement peace talks ( well that didn't work only at Taros ).

<Inappropriate image removed. This is not the first time you've been warned over posting things like this>

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

Xenos factions (ie playable races) in alphabetical order:

Dark Eldar
Eldar
Necrons
Orks
Tau
Tyranids

By my count that's 6.


Your own estimate puts 4 of those factions ahead of the Tau in numbers and another faction could be or couldn't be larger.

So how are the Tau one of the largest? By your own admission they are 5th or 6th on a list of 6 playable factions.

Also, the Warp storms subsided quite some time ago. Otherwise the Tau would never have expanded as much as they have.


In the Tau's favour, they do have a degree of density, and their willingness to cede territory to preserve lives (The Tau were fighting a delaying action against the Damocles Gulf Crusade, not a defence) make them a tough nut to crack by the less than coordinated and sustained efforts the Imperium seems able to muster. However, should the Imperium get their Grox in a row they would have no difficulties taking down the Tau, especially if they had no desire to actually take the Tau Sept Worlds intact.

Of course, if the Imperium devoted the appropriate amount of resources to taking out the Tau one would expect the forces of Chaos to strike the Empire a crippling blow that guaranteed it's destruction. Otherwise the Tyranids, no longer being held in check by forces along the boarder of the galaxy and by the Tau Empire itself might break into the heart of the galaxy. Of course, the Orks may be able to gain the breathing room to launch a great Waaagh! through the Imperium in the meantime.

So yes, the Imperium can crush the Tau, but doing so is probably going to doom the Imperium.










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iproxtaco wrote:That's under the assumption that they can defeat the force that throws them off of their planet. They aren't fantastic in Space battles after all.
Terra is far too important, there's certainly nothing wrong with sending every available force to defend it. Its far too important to lose due to lack of forces.


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DivineSausage wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

The Crusade was an utter failure. Being stopped as soon as it reached it's first Sept world, on its first encounter with a sizeable Tau force.

Stopped? The Imperium was making headway before they were recalled, as per Savage Scars. Granted they weren't doing fantastically, but they were winning slowly but surely. The fact that is reached one of the Tau's major planets certainly isn't a 'fail'. It was a tiny Crusade. If the Tau are so capable they shouldn't have allowed it to get there in the first place.

Actually the Tau weren't intending to hold the world, just delay the Imperial forces long enough to evacuate and for their fleet to arrive.