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Cottonjaw wrote:

You're crazypants. Tank crews making on-the-fly fixes and re-manned ancient facilities being headed up by "priests" of technology is not the same as consistently advancing research, development, and implementation.

Give an example of in-the-field-repairs of Tau.

Not happening eh?
Seems they are not that tech savvy...

Seriously, rhino's are capable of self-repair. Its a feature of it.
Now would anyone claim this puts imperial tanks into the same boat as necron vehicles because something works without a technician?
No. But you are missing the point, since the ability to repair and the presence of personal to perform repairs should tell you the imperium isn't reliant on advancing the tech but keeping tech standardized and simple to use.

Cottonjaw wrote:Just because the IoM is conducting archeological digs to ungrave factories from M31 that produced tanks, and they can pray/throw slaves & servitors at it until it starts churning out tanks again, doesn't make them tech-capable.

Ignoring the fact the mechnicum moves facilizties and workers around ...

Cottonjaw wrote:The numbers is all the IoM have. Their empire is in decline. It's absolutely everywhere in the fluff. The Tau are expanding. THe IoM is falling apart.

The IoM is in decline. The Empires of the Tau are in growth. If they advanced the storyline, even slightly, the Tau's technology would be stellar. Their advancement rate (and who cares how/why) is based on that of 1900's - 2000's Earth. Imagine what the Tau are capable of in M42

Stellar are the assumptions here.
The Tau will be put into their place by GW, their tech tied to the codex and balanced .

You are.... major league confusing gameplay fact, with fluff fact.

Neeeevveerrmind. Count me out.

1hadhq wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:The numbers is all the IoM have. Their empire is in decline. It's absolutely everywhere in the fluff. The Tau are expanding. THe IoM is falling apart.

The IoM is in decline. The Empires of the Tau are in growth. If they advanced the storyline, even slightly, the Tau's technology would be stellar. Their advancement rate (and who cares how/why) is based on that of 1900's - 2000's Earth. Imagine what the Tau are capable of in M42

Stellar are the assumptions here.
The Tau will be put into their place by GW, their tech tied to the codex and balanced .

Not wanting to sound fanboi-ish, but the Tau codex and their page in the BRB both say that they're a rapidly advancing and expanding empire. Meanwhile in the BRB it constantly refers to the IoM as an empire in decline, losing technology and territory and pushed to the brink. It's one of the most well-established pieces of fluff in 40k.
Proof:

5th Edition rulebook, page 170 wrote:Though less than two thousand years old, this fledgling empire is rapidly expading in to space and encountering the elder races of the galaxy.

And many more to that effect.

5th Edition rulebook, page 101 wrote:From the palaces of Holy Terra, the High Lords watch as their domain crumbles. Armies and fleets fight on with the valour of heroes, calling for reinforcements that do not exist. In shattered cathedrals on a million worlds, Imperial citizens pray with the desperation of the damned, begging their immortal Emporer for a salvation they shall never see. As the lines of battle draw ever closer to Terra, the light of the Emporer fades and darkness swallows all.

Plus dozens more quotes to this effect in the BRB alone. There's a reason M41 is known as the Time of Ending.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:
Give an example of in-the-field-repairs of Tau.

Not happening eh?
Seems they are not that tech savvy...

Give an example of in-the-field repairs for Eldar.

So I'm assuming they know little of technology.

See the flaw in that arguement now?

1hadhq wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:

You're crazypants. Tank crews making on-the-fly fixes and re-manned ancient facilities being headed up by "priests" of technology is not the same as consistently advancing research, development, and implementation.

Give an example of in-the-field-repairs of Tau.

Not happening eh?
Seems they are not that tech savvy...

Seriously, rhino's are capable of self-repair. Its a feature of it.
Now would anyone claim this puts imperial tanks into the same boat as necron vehicles because something works without a technician?
No. But you are missing the point, since the ability to repair and the presence of personal to perform repairs should tell you the imperium isn't reliant on advancing the tech but keeping tech standardized and simple to use.

I can't think of a example of a tau field repair, but I also can't think of any example where a vehicle gets damaged, so there is that. Actually the tau seem to be obsessed with new things. If a old tank gets damaged, they are probably more likely to scrap it and replace it with the new model.

Cottonjaw wrote:You are.... major league confusing gameplay fact, with fluff fact.

Neeeevveerrmind. Count me out.

Gameplay and fluff are tied.
Sorry if this isn't what you deem fact.
Everything has fluff.
The IoM gets more time in the spotlight. But the design choice to have the ability to repair, isn't just there for gameplay as people seem to use the repair crews for anything but repairs. The ability to repair is part of both, game and fluff.
Models in codices and storys in GW publications where tech is reclaimed, repaired, do exist.
I am not going to search through hundreds of pages to dig out what is wellknown. Too many other duties this weekend. Sorry.

TrollPie wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Stellar are the assumptions here.
The Tau will be put into their place by GW, their tech tied to the codex and balanced .

Not wanting to sound fanboi-ish, ...............................

Its maybe unclear written , but I didn't intend to claim the IoM is the epitome of research and innovation.
Should I not see the flaw in the claim of what happens in M42 as per Cottonjaw?
The IoM has its place and function in the setting , as have the Tau.
The course GW set is also not hidden. As is the reason they put the background into the eternal M41 freezer.
This way, GW has not to care about the nids eating the galaxy, or the necrons fully awakening , or chaos usurping the material realm,
or the orks uniting, etc etc.
Thus, M42 may not look like the fanboy dreams of any faction.
Maybe the fact of GW designers actively balancing units and adding believable fluff to them back in the day when the Tau were created,
says something of the foreseen future in Cottonjaws post.
I for one, would prefer a return to acceptable fluff, instead of the authors we have now who miss the theme and go overboard.
But maybe he's right and I am too stuck in the old ways.
Shouldn't say : unlikely, should say: welcome to cheese country. From swiss, netherlands or france?

TrollPie wrote:Give an example of in-the-field repairs for Eldar.

So I'm assuming they know little of technology.

See the flaw in that arguement now?

Eldar have their own repair model in Dawn of war. Has a hard time to do anything under fire tough. Could be the psychic part of their work and the loss of focus the battlefield may bring. But yes, Eldar have their own take on tech and know this approach on it very well.

The argument still stands.
The IoM is able to repair its stuff.
Even under attack, where repairs are difficult.

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of a example of a tau field repair, but I also can't think of any example where a vehicle gets damaged, so there is that. Actually the tau seem to be obsessed with new things. If a old tank gets damaged, they are probably more likely to scrap it and replace it with the new model.

Maybe.
Tau like the shiny new things. I see that now. Like wargamers. The plot thickens...

Or they just keep their work-crews behind, out of danger. So no in-the-field-repair, but recycling the vehicle if the battle was won.
What happens if they have to retreat? Give up on the ressources? Destroy what has to be abandoned?

1hadhq wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of a example of a tau field repair, but I also can't think of any example where a vehicle gets damaged, so there is that. Actually the tau seem to be obsessed with new things. If a old tank gets damaged, they are probably more likely to scrap it and replace it with the new model.

Maybe.
Tau like the shiny new things. I see that now. Like wargamers. The plot thickens...

Or they just keep their work-crews behind, out of danger. So no in-the-field-repair, but recycling the vehicle if the battle was won.
What happens if they have to retreat? Give up on the ressources? Destroy what has to be abandoned?

I don't think they keep there work crews behind behind. There was a story where a medical team got killed in combat. You can also deploy technical drones in combat. (no real rules for them yet, they show up in cites of death ect.) A better question to ask is who fixes the vehicles. Do they drag earth caste out to fix them, or can the fire caste maintain there own equipment?

If they retreat, then then leave behind what they leave behind. In the battles they have had, they usually try to get civilians out fist. (probably machinery too) If a tank gets damaged and has to be abandoned, I don't think they much care. Just leave it behind we have to retreat/advance and don't have time to get a toe truck.

Uh, the Tau have a repair unit in Dawn of War as well...so what the hell kind of argument is that?

1hadhq wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Stellar are the assumptions here.
The Tau will be put into their place by GW, their tech tied to the codex and balanced .

Not wanting to sound fanboi-ish, ...............................

Its maybe unclear written , but I didn't intend to claim the IoM is the epitome of research and innovation.

Cottonjaw said that the Tau were expanding and the IoM was falling apart, you said the assumptions were stellar, I misunderstood. Oops.

Shouldn't say : unlikely, should say: welcome to cheese country. From swiss, netherlands or france?

Actually Britain is the one of the world's leading exporters of cheese, ahead of all those countries. So... yeah.

TrollPie wrote:Give an example of in-the-field repairs for Eldar.

So I'm assuming they know little of technology.

See the flaw in that arguement now?

Eldar have their own repair model in Dawn of war. Has a hard time to do anything under fire tough. Could be the psychic part of their work and the loss of focus the battlefield may bring. But yes, Eldar have their own take on tech and know this approach on it very well.

So do Tau, and it's a drone and therefore a lot less risky to use than a pansy spehss elf.

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of a example of a tau field repair, but I also can't think of any example where a vehicle gets damaged, so there is that. Actually the tau seem to be obsessed with new things. If a old tank gets damaged, they are probably more likely to scrap it and replace it with the new model.

Maybe.
Tau like the shiny new things. I see that now. Like wargamers. The plot thickens...

Or they just keep their work-crews behind, out of danger. So no in-the-field-repair, but recycling the vehicle if the battle was won.
What happens if they have to retreat? Give up on the ressources? Destroy what has to be abandoned?

I imagine they would salvage what they can and scarper. They don't care about territory much since they can always retake it, and I suppose the same would apply to resources.

The Tau aren't important enough to destroy--there's far bigger threats for the Imperium to face off against.

This is intentional. The Tau are representative of many smaller races which rely on technology and aren't yet touched by Chaos.