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Jefffar wrote:
So yes, the Imperium can crush the Tau, but doing so is probably going to doom the Imperium.

I actually doubt this very much. They'll likely lose more than they'll gain as a consequence (at least for a time) but the Imperium does not appear to be that overstretched that any such effort would result in its destruction. According to Lexicanum, the Sabbat Worlds consist of over 100 star systems, which I think is larger than the Tau Empire but was still retaken by the Imperium.

Well we don't know who wins that one yet.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well we don't know who wins that one yet.

They're still using far more resources than they sent against the Tau though, right?

The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

nomotog wrote:

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

It was either the a Rogue Trader or one of the Ultramarines novels. Upon entering Tau space the IoM found lush habitable planets that the exploreator records listed as lifeless rocks just a few decades or centuries before.

UselessSage wrote:

nomotog wrote:

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

It was either the a Rogue Trader or one of the Ultramarines novels. Upon entering Tau space the IoM found lush habitable planets that the exploreator records listed as lifeless rocks just a few decades or centuries before.

They uses their happy, glowing, anti-grimdarkness to grow pretty trees and flowers on every planet they land on. This is why the Imperium is so annoyed when they take back a planet from the Tau they have to burn it all down and replace it with skulls.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well we don't know who wins that one yet.

They're still using far more resources than they sent against the Tau though, right?

Probably about the same, but it's another example of why they can't deal with the Tau. An entire region of the galaxy falling to the arch enemy is just a bigger priority.

UselessSage wrote:

nomotog wrote:

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

It was either the a Rogue Trader or one of the Ultramarines novels. Upon entering Tau space the IoM found lush habitable planets that the exploreator records listed as lifeless rocks just a few decades or centuries before.

That would suggest terrforming.

Nicholas wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

nomotog wrote:

UselessSage wrote:The Tau pose a extremely hazardous long term strategic threat to the IoM because of the Tau's superior terraforming tech. Long term the million worlds of the IoM are a speck next to the hundreds of billions of worlds that the Tau can spiff up.

I haven't read anything that says the tau can terraform.

It was either the a Rogue Trader or one of the Ultramarines novels. Upon entering Tau space the IoM found lush habitable planets that the exploreator records listed as lifeless rocks just a few decades or centuries before.

They uses their happy, glowing, anti-grimdarkness to grow pretty trees and flowers on every planet they land on. This is why the Imperium is so annoyed when they take back a planet from the Tau they have to burn it all down and replace it with skulls.

I laff'd pretty hard

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
So yes, the Imperium can crush the Tau, but doing so is probably going to doom the Imperium.

I actually doubt this very much. They'll likely lose more than they'll gain as a consequence (at least for a time) but the Imperium does not appear to be that overstretched that any such effort would result in its destruction. According to Lexicanum, the Sabbat Worlds consist of over 100 star systems, which I think is larger than the Tau Empire but was still retaken by the Imperium.

They wouldn't gain much at all. The level of destruction wrought on the core Tau worlds would probably make them uninhabitable and the gain of 100 worlds or so would greatly outweigh the military resources spent taking them.

The Imperium just can't bring together the resources now, not with the 13th Black Crusade, 3rd Armageddon War, and Tyranid Hive Fleets on top of countless other Ork/Chaos/Necron/Dark Eldar attacks on top of local rebellions.

Thing is the Tau are as much a threat as all those. They just don't seem like it. The Imperium should wipe them out as soon as possible but the Tau just aren't as vile as Chaos, voracious as the Tyranid, destructive as the Orks or superevil as the Necrons etc. Because they just don't seem as bad as everyone else they keep getting put on the bottom of the list of things to be taken care off. They're the nicer, cuddlier enemies of the empire but they are as big a threat as anyone.
In a way, the non-super-evilness of the Tau is their greatess strength. It let's them fly under the Imperial radar.

Harriticus wrote:

The Imperium just can't bring together the resources now, not with the 13th Black Crusade, 3rd Armageddon War, and Tyranid Hive Fleets on top of countless other Ork/Chaos/Necron/Dark Eldar attacks on top of local rebellions.

The Imperium has whatever is put into a codex / rulebook and thus, as some may have noticed, the lack of any sense of scale will never allow to make a halfway decent guess at the resources available.

Like R.Cruddace and the IG dex raised the number of IG regiments to billions of them.
Throw only a small perentage of those billions at any target and it is drowned in superior numbers, superior firepower and has no space to escape. So in GW terms, no army ever runs out of fuel , ammo etc , but can't bring the necessary ressources when the planned outcome
has to favor one side.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thing is the Tau are as much a threat as all those. They just don't seem like it. The Imperium should wipe them out as soon as possible but the Tau just aren't as vile as Chaos, voracious as the Tyranid, destructive as the Orks or superevil as the Necrons etc. Because they just don't seem as bad as everyone else they keep getting put on the bottom of the list of things to be taken care off. They're the nicer, cuddlier enemies of the empire but they are as big a threat as anyone.
In a way, the non-super-evilness of the Tau is their greatess strength. It let's them fly under the Imperial radar.

I don't agree that they're as much a threat as Abbaddon and his 13th Crusade. Possibly in the future if everything goes their way then yeah, they could pose a problem, but if that ever happens then it'll be the downfall of the Imperium that paves the way, so this argument will be rendered moot. What happens after that will test the Tau.

Jefffar wrote:

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

Xenos factions (ie playable races) in alphabetical order:

Dark Eldar
Eldar
Necrons
Orks
Tau
Tyranids

By my count that's 6.


Your own estimate puts 4 of those factions ahead of the Tau in numbers and another faction could be or couldn't be larger.

So how are the Tau one of the largest? By your own admission they are 5th or 6th on a list of 6 playable factions.

Six playable xenos factions. Then dosens more that don't have codices.

And have so little information it's funny. We have no idea of numbers of other factions, there may be factions that exist outside the Imperiums influence that we may haven't heard of. Essentially, any sort of ranking system including these anonymous races is futile.

iproxtaco wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thing is the Tau are as much a threat as all those. They just don't seem like it. The Imperium should wipe them out as soon as possible but the Tau just aren't as vile as Chaos, voracious as the Tyranid, destructive as the Orks or superevil as the Necrons etc. Because they just don't seem as bad as everyone else they keep getting put on the bottom of the list of things to be taken care off. They're the nicer, cuddlier enemies of the empire but they are as big a threat as anyone.
In a way, the non-super-evilness of the Tau is their greatess strength. It let's them fly under the Imperial radar.

I don't agree that they're as much a threat as Abbaddon and his 13th Crusade. Possibly in the future if everything goes their way then yeah, they could pose a problem, but if that ever happens then it'll be the downfall of the Imperium that paves the way, so this argument will be rendered moot. What happens after that will test the Tau.

The Tau took a score of worlds without firing a shot. Abbaddon barely has a foothold on Cadia.
Problem is Chaos literally turns worlds into a living hell. Tau don't, so Imperium figures they'll deal with them later. Problem is it's always "later" and eventually the problem will become insurmountable.

Dose the tau even want to kill the IoM? Really the tau have a better chance to save it then destroy it.

nomotog wrote:Dose the tau even want to kill the IoM? Really the tau have a better chance to save it then destroy it.

That's what they thought about the Orks and Dark Eldar at first. They still trying to get their heads around what the IoM is.

Insurmountable? Does this exist in 40k at all?

Maybe the latest course of the fluff, where Tau have met the other factions ( DE, necrons, nids , etc ) should make it clear that no one can
stand at the sidelines forever. Tau had a nice "timeout" whenever they needed it, but recently the rest of the Galaxy is aware of them.
This situation will not go away like a bad dream.
Orks actively work against the interests of the Tau. Nids eat them in numbers. DE claim them as slaves if they want to. Necrons just harvest them. Chaos hasn't hit them in force yet, but that doesn't mean Tau have nothing that entertains them, Fab. B had some fun IIRC...

iproxtaco wrote:And have so little information it's funny. We have no idea of numbers of other factions, there may be factions that exist outside the Imperiums influence that we may haven't heard of. Essentially, any sort of ranking system including these anonymous races is futile.

It was said in the 5th Edition Rulebook that besides the standard enemies of the Imperium (Orks, Chaos, Tyranids, etc.) "new upstart alien empires" are also infringing on Imperial space. Besides the Tau Empire the Ulumeathic League, Draxian Hegemony, and Noisome Reek were listed. No information on any of them though, besides the Ulumeathic getting banged up badly in Hive Fleet Naga. Then there's also Hrud Migrations which are still around if the bio of Creed has anything to say about it. The Barghesi also seem to be a savage race similar to Orks which were confined to the Grendel Stars recently by the Iron Lords chapter.

The Ulumeathic/Draxians/Reek being listed alongside the Tau seems significant though, they're probably significant sector-level threats.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thing is the Tau are as much a threat as all those. They just don't seem like it. The Imperium should wipe them out as soon as possible but the Tau just aren't as vile as Chaos, voracious as the Tyranid, destructive as the Orks or superevil as the Necrons etc. Because they just don't seem as bad as everyone else they keep getting put on the bottom of the list of things to be taken care off. They're the nicer, cuddlier enemies of the empire but they are as big a threat as anyone.
In a way, the non-super-evilness of the Tau is their greatess strength. It let's them fly under the Imperial radar.

I don't agree that they're as much a threat as Abbaddon and his 13th Crusade. Possibly in the future if everything goes their way then yeah, they could pose a problem, but if that ever happens then it'll be the downfall of the Imperium that paves the way, so this argument will be rendered moot. What happens after that will test the Tau.

The Tau took a score of worlds without firing a shot.

Several worlds decided to throw their lot in with the Tau, no arguments that they offer fringe worlds a better deal.

Abbaddon barely has a foothold on Cadia.

He has taken most of the planets surface and planets around it. He has a major foothold. Actually, if you will excuse the metaphor, he has two feet and a fist on Cadia, one more hand on green in this ever lasting game of galaxy twister and he'll have completed his move.

Problem is Chaos literally turns worlds into a living hell. Tau don't, so Imperium figures they'll deal with them later. Problem is it's always "later" and eventually the problem will become insurmountable.

Key word in all of that is 'eventually'. Not right now, not in five minutes, eventually. A hundred planet faction of which the majority are small outposts and allied planets is nothing to an empire of a million worlds. If the Tau are ever in the position to become one of the galaxy's big players then their ascendance will be paved by the fall of the Imperium, and I can guarantee they won't be the one laying the slabs. After that they'll have a lot bigger things to worry about.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Tau took a score of worlds without firing a shot. Abbaddon barely has a foothold on Cadia.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Official verbatim results of the 13th Black Crusade.

Abaddon has the majority of Cadia and the surrounding planets. The Apocalypse rulebook also places him and the leading elements of the 13th Black Crusade in the Thesus Sector, which is not among the sectors of the Cadian Gate, meaning at least his personal force has broken past the Gate.

From the 4th ed. Space Marine Codex:

One such enemy is the Tau, a dynamic, technologically advanced race who have taken advantage of the recent redeployment of IMperial forces bound for Segmentum Obscurus and the beleaguered Cadian Gate to further expand their empire. p. 20, 4th ed. Space Marine Codex

If the Imperium were not pressed for resources there would be no need to rob Peter to pay Paul, no need to strip the border to defend the Cadian Gate. The Tau are a regional power but the Imperium has multiple great threats to deal with simultaneously and lacks the resources to definitively deal with any one of them because it would mean neglecting other fronts.

Asherian Command wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:Check my facts, but tau killed there nid invasion in two planets. That crazy good when you consider that the IoM will burn over a dozen worlds just to establish a fire line, but the tau broke the back of the most adaptable hive fleet yet. Losing only two outposts/ (Ya it was mostly plot armor.) The idea that they will be eaten by nids after they killed the nids. *shrug* dosen't make the best of sense.

They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

yep correct. The nids have yet to come in full force. And the tau lost a ton of their fleet.

Unlike the "we pray at our tanks" imperium, the Tau Earth caste's understanding of technology is fantastic. If they lose an XV8 suit... they just.. you know.. build another one.

None of this dragging terminator armor for miles because of it's innumerable value. If a Broadside suit fails.. you just.. you know... take another one off the shelf.

Of all the Tau bashing threads, you cannot ever ignore the fact that Tau technology is advancing and IoM technology is quite literally beyond their grasp.

"It's broke all the time, because some smart guy made it a long time ago" - Frito, Idiocracy

Cottonjaw wrote:Unlike the "we pray at our tanks" imperium, the Tau Earth caste's understanding of technology is fantastic. If they lose an XV8 suit... they just.. you know.. build another one.

None of this dragging terminator armor for miles because of it's innumerable value. If a Broadside suit fails.. you just.. you know... take another one off the shelf.

Of all the Tau bashing threads, you cannot ever ignore the fact that Tau technology is advancing and IoM technology is quite literally beyond their grasp.

"It's broke all the time, because some smart guy made it a long time ago" - Frito, Idiocracy

While I agree that the Tau's technological attitude is seriously underestimated (For example, the Imperium's own technological perspective makes them incredibly vulnerable when the local Adeptus Mechanicus member is dead, turned traitor, completely bonkers, or otherwise unavailable. This is every single Black Library book ever, it seems), they can't just replace lost materials out of nothing. They still have to get the resources like oil for plastics, metal, etc to build a new suit.

The Imperium's problem is that their technological system is incredibly luck-dependant and centralized. The Tau's problem is that their supplies are limited and they're a bit behind in the size department, which is part of the reason they're colonizing in the first place. They're going to have to get much faster ships if they want to have an advantage in adaptability.

because the tau are working well as nid food, less nids IoM have to fight the better

To sum up the situation, the IoM could muster probably enough forces to crush the Tau, but...

It wouldn't be easy.
The Tau are the least of the IoM's worries.
Taking forces from other areas would seriously increase vulnerability to more serious threats.

Therefore it makes no strategic sense.

Cottonjaw wrote:

Unlike the "we pray at our tanks" imperium, the Tau Earth caste's understanding of technology is fantastic. If they lose an XV8 suit... they just.. you know.. build another one.

Oh really? There are more tanks on the assembly line in the IoM than earth caste workers have lived.
Maybe the fact of the IoM doing repairs in the field should tell you they do understand tech to a certain level.
Tank crews that is. Plus all these adepts of the mechanicum accompanying imperial forces are a fact.
Want to repair that expensive vehicle? Go imperium, or go orks. Tau?

Replacing basic stuff isn't the problem. Wasting ressources when not reclaiming the downed tech is.
The value of equipment may also depend on its heritage, a suit used for thousands of years a bit more important than a tool that may fail after its guarantee ceased.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Therefore it makes no strategic sense.

Not yet.
Sooner or later they have to care for the eastern fringe as Tau and their allies could provide biomass to the nids, so if they fail it may be
necessary to eradicate them.

Additionally 5th ed has the Tau encounter the rest of the galaxy and there aren't only humans who destroy civilizations.

1hadhq wrote:

Cottonjaw wrote:

Unlike the "we pray at our tanks" imperium, the Tau Earth caste's understanding of technology is fantastic. If they lose an XV8 suit... they just.. you know.. build another one.

Oh really? There are more tanks on the assembly line in the IoM than earth caste workers have lived.
Maybe the fact of the IoM doing repairs in the field should tell you they do understand tech to a certain level.
Tank crews that is. Plus all these adepts of the mechanicum accompanying imperial forces are a fact.
Want to repair that expensive vehicle? Go imperium, or go orks. Tau?

Replacing basic stuff isn't the problem. Wasting ressources when not reclaiming the downed tech is.
The value of equipment may also depend on its heritage, a suit used for thousands of years a bit more important than a tool that may fail after its guarantee ceased.

You're crazypants. Tank crews making on-the-fly fixes and re-manned ancient facilities being headed up by "priests" of technology is not the same as consistently advancing research, development, and implementation.

The XV22 is the upgrade to the XV15. The XV9 is the upgrade to the XV8. The XV88-1 is the upgrade to the XV88. These things exist. They are canon. The Tau are developing and implementing new technology every day. Just because the IoM is conducting archeological digs to ungrave factories from M31 that produced tanks, and they can pray/throw slaves & servitors at it until it starts churning out tanks again, doesn't make them tech-capable.

The numbers is all the IoM have. Their empire is in decline. It's absolutely everywhere in the fluff. The Tau are expanding. THe IoM is falling apart.

The IoM could absolutely crush them like a bug. But they have bigger problems. Namely: Themselves. The forces of Chaos are not a separate force. That is a civil war still raging within the IoM.

The IoM is in decline. The Empires of the Tau are in growth. If they advanced the storyline, even slightly, the Tau's technology would be stellar. Their advancement rate (and who cares how/why) is based on that of 1900's - 2000's Earth. Imagine what the Tau are capable of in M42. Imagine what kinda pants-department the IoM will be living in by then? Are the Tau going to be conducting a multi-system campaign against the IoM? No. But are the Tau a force to be reckoned with, even now? Yes.

The IoM could defeat the Tau, but they can't because it would be like invading mexico during WWII. What's the point.

Cottonjaw wrote:You're crazypants. Tank crews making on-the-fly fixes and re-manned ancient facilities being headed up by "priests" of technology is not the same as consistently advancing research, development, and implementation.

The XV22 is the upgrade to the XV15. The XV9 is the upgrade to the XV8. The XV88-1 is the upgrade to the XV88. These things exist. They are canon. The Tau are developing and implementing new technology every day. Just because the IoM is conducting archeological digs to ungrave factories from M31 that produced tanks, and they can pray/throw slaves & servitors at it until it starts churning out tanks again, doesn't make them tech-capable.

The numbers is all the IoM have. Their empire is in decline. It's absolutely everywhere in the fluff. The Tau are expanding. THe IoM is falling apart.

The IoM could absolutely crush them like a bug. But they have bigger problems. Namely: Themselves. The forces of Chaos are not a separate force. That is a civil war still raging within the IoM.

The IoM is in decline. The Empires of the Tau are in growth. If they advanced the storyline, even slightly, the Tau's technology would be stellar. Their advancement rate (and who cares how/why) is based on that of 1900's - 2000's Earth. Imagine what the Tau are capable of in M42. Imagine what kinda pants-department the IoM will be living in by then? Are the Tau going to be conducting a multi-system campaign against the IoM? No. But are the Tau a force to be reckoned with, even now? Yes.

This is all true, but even so Tau will never have large size galactic empire simply because it's slow FTL ( in short - the more territory they have the bigger problem will be defending it. Even on that small scale ). And since Etherials banned all Warp related research Tau will forever bee in that small region of space... And frankly, it the Tau had IoM size they would be in the same exact situation like the Imperium. No matter their believes and technology.