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Well, at least we had two weeks without someone posting his Tau genocide fantasy

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the Tau if truly under threat just off? I mean, they've never seen the point in last stands and although sore about losing their worlds and colonies I imagine they'd do a Craftworld style let's get out of here!

Or they'd just let the Water Caste do their work and convince the IoM that every thing was fine and dandy, and how the thought that the Emperor was lovely.

nomotog wrote:I guess this thread should tell you something. If anyone is going to rake out the tau, it's not going to be the IoM.

Not unless you consider Matt Ward or Phil Kelley active parts of the IoM.

DivineSausage wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the Tau if truly under threat just off? I mean, they've never seen the point in last stands and although sore about losing their worlds and colonies I imagine they'd do a Craftworld style let's get out of here!

Or they'd just let the Water Caste do their work and convince the IoM that every thing was fine and dandy, and how the thought that the Emperor was lovely.

I never thought of that. It dose make sense for them to just get up and go. How well they survive well on the go would be for debate. I imagine a battlestar deal.

The water casts can't just convince the IoM that everything is fine. The tau do think the emperor is lovely, but the IoM just dosen't care. (there is a video on youtube of a tau and a SM talking, but I couldn't find it.)

At first I was confused, but then I realised the OP wasn't using the Tau's code name...speed bump

nomotog wrote:The water casts can't just convince the IoM that everything is fine. The tau do think the emperor is lovely, but the IoM just dosen't care. (there is a video on youtube of a tau and a SM talking, but I couldn't find it.)

By all accounts the Water Caste are exceptional negotiators though, right? I mean would it take much to inflict such a degree of fatalities on the IoM forces (Presuming they send IG) then negotiate with the Commander on the scene to some sort of peace treaty?

Imperial Worlds did previously fall to the Tau simply through propaganda.

Mind you I guess the full force of the Imperium could never truly be stopped. I just imagine, knowing the Tau, they'd come up with some crafty plan to avoid utter defeat.

DivineSausage wrote:

nomotog wrote:The water casts can't just convince the IoM that everything is fine. The tau do think the emperor is lovely, but the IoM just dosen't care. (there is a video on youtube of a tau and a SM talking, but I couldn't find it.)

By all accounts the Water Caste are exceptional negotiators though, right? I mean would it take much to inflict such a degree of fatalities on the IoM forces (Presuming they send IG) then negotiate with the Commander on the scene to some sort of peace treaty?

Imperial Worlds did previously fall to the Tau simply through propaganda.

Mind you I guess the full force of the Imperium could never truly be stopped. I just imagine, knowing the Tau, they'd come up with some crafty plan to avoid utter defeat.

The IoM is dedicated to killing the tau and everyone else. (when they get around to it) They might be able to forge temporary peace with the IoM, but the end game of the IoM is to kill all the tau.

Oh I found the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrHhS5IkRR0 It really shows what I mean about not being able to negotiate with the IoM.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Nicholas wrote:They were mostly losing until the Imperium helped out and the fleet couldn't adapt fast enough. Unfortunately that was a splinter and another bigger fleet is still on the way.

They had aid in one planet by a small Imperial force. They still out-adapted the Tyranids and bested them in multiple battles.

The Tyranids out adapted themselves. Gorgon was doing some really strange hyper evolutions between battles (even for Tyranids), and only really were stopped when the IoM stepped in and gave them a hand. And they only did that because they know which was the bigger threat.

The Tau stil made some boneheaded moves, like falling for an incredibly obvious bait-and-shoot and lost more of the fleet than was necessary.

The imperium is so vast I do not think it could use its full force for any objective reasonably. Their military appears to be structured in a way that sub-sectors should be able to defend themselves unless they encounter a threat that is large enough to threaten other sectors (when sector military is called in).

What the tau have going for them is that they are a race that borders on being pure in ideology and that doesn't have traitors (unless they get their hands on a demon weapon). They are united. The imperium can't go a month without some part of it rebelling. Every once in awhile they have sector wide civil wars. The imperium is also really spread out. The tau empire is incredibly dense.

So you could say "what if the imperium pit all of its force against all of that tau's". Hands down the tau would loose. The problem is that the imperium would die immediately after that because of the rebellion and xenos incursions that would come from all other parts of the galaxy. So there are only a small amount of forces that the imperium can actually dedicate to the tau.

I am sure my fellow Tau players are going to throw me out of the club for this but - yes, the Imperium can eradicate the Tau.


In fact, the Tau are the only one of the Imperium's diverse enemies that the Imperioum could reasonably expect to totally annihilate if they chose to pursue the matter.

In numbers, the Tau are probably the smallest Xeno faction (though I'm not sure just how many Eldar/Dark Eldar are out there) and while the are tacticaly quite mobile, their very limited warp capabilities makes it possible for the Imperium to out manoeuvre them strategically.

I am not saying it would be a cakewalk. We are talking about several major inhabited systems plus what is likely numerous smaller outposts, each potentially equipped with some of the most advanced weapons and equipment in the galaxy (or was it the Eldar that were mst advanced, maybe it was the Necrons . . . that seems to change every book I read). Unless the Imperium launched a massively overwhelming concentration of force, whatever attack they launched would meet with significant casualties.

But yes, should the Imperium decide to do it, the Tau are definitely able to be wiped out.


So why haven't they . . . besides plot armour of course.


Well the first reason the Tau survive is due to the structure of the Imperium. When people say the Imperium should do this, or the Imperium should do that, they don't realize that the Imperium can't do anything. At least not in anything resembling a unified way. The Imperium has been restructured since the Horus Hersey in such a manner that no one man can ever gain sufficient power to be truly capable of major independent action. Everything is done through committees and coalitions of forces. This is primarily an internal security apparatus, but it has the effect of fracturing and dividing the energies of the Imperium in a counter productive way.

Sort of imagine it as if the US declared war on Syria but only the Texas National Guard, the 82nd Airborne and the FBI actually went to fight. That's what war with the Imperium is like. That is what allowed the Tau to survive the Damocles Gulf Crusade.

The second reason the Tau survive is that the Imperium has too many other problems. In addition to attacks by Dark Eldar, Demons, Eldar, Necrons, Orks and Tyranids from the outside, there are constant struggles with cultists, renegades and traitors within. While no one of these enemies are in position to wipe out the Imperium, but all must be actively suppressed lest they unleash major damage. The Tau are a lesser concern than these other powers at this time. Of course, by the time they rank among the great powers of the Galaxy (instead of just beign a regional power) it will be too late and the Imperium will not be in a position to take them out.


So yes, the Tau are definitely vulnerable to the Imperium deciding to wipe them out, however the Imperium themselves are too internally fractured and too preoccupied to likely be able to bring enough of their forces to bear on the Tau Empire to destroy them once and for all.

The Tau will be destroyed around the same time GW believes that the Tau no longer represent a profitable product line. The destroyer(s) and given reasons/circumstances surrounding the end of the Tau will be supplied at that time.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Wouldn't it be incredibly easy? Somewhere here on the forum or somewhere else was saying that it would take 0.04% of all the imperial guard forces to eliminate the Tau. Why not just Virus bomb them? Sick titan legions back by other imperial forces? Discuss.

Because .04% is a huge amount of guardsmen, tanks, titans, ect. They would rather spend a fraction of that holding them off while they deal with real problems like the Nids and chaos which both require 100%.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Wouldn't it be incredibly easy? Somewhere here on the forum or somewhere else was saying that it would take 0.04% of all the imperial guard forces to eliminate the Tau. Why not just Virus bomb them? Sick titan legions back by other imperial forces? Discuss.

...For the greater...good?

I figure it's one more instance of Sicarius getting ticked off away from happening, so long as Ward is writing the Ultramarines fluff.

@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

In the hundreds? So you mean, hundreds of thousands then.

Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

Do you forget the Damocles Gulf Crusade? It was fairly small by Imperial standards and managed to get to one of their major Sept worlds. They were winning according to Savage Scars, but were ordered to withdraw.
One main problem the Tau have is that their military isn't very big. They don't have the manpower.

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365341.page

Lot of people agreed that there are more Eldar then Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:
Also, because of their density, a force large enough to destroy them in a single crusade (a few million Guardsmen and a large fleet) would have to be drawn from a very wide area, while all the Tau military would be a much smaller distance from each other. The Warp storms surrounding the Tau would force the Imperials down a narrow corridor of space, while the array of listening posts and garrisons on the smaller planets would give the Tau an advance warning of the invasion, allowing them to gather a substantial force before the Guard set foot on a Sept world.

What are you guys talking about! The Tau could take the IoM easily. There would be no contest. They after all have the best technology Evar!!

Brother Coa wrote:

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365341.page

Lot of people agreed that there are more Eldar then Tau.

There's trillions? I thought there was only about 20 craftworlds and a few dozen maiden worlds. Care to correct me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bwolf999 wrote:What are you guys talking about! The Tau could take the IoM easily. There would be no contest. They after all have the best technology Evar!!

Trolling isn't necassary.

If Sicarius can beat them back, then the Templars would obliterate the blue wimps.

But they're Tyranid food, let's be honest here.

Bwolf999 wrote:What are you guys talking about! The Tau could take the IoM easily. There would be no contest. They after all have the best technology Evar!!

TrollPie wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

TrollPie wrote:@Jeffar- actually Tau are one of the largest Xenos factions, outnumbered only by Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar (not sure about Eldar, but I don't think they have the equivalent of 11 Earth like worlds and 90+ smaller colonies). Races like the Hrud, Barghesi, Demiurg, Kroot etc number in the hundreds and each hold only a handful of planets.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365341.page

Lot of people agreed that there are more Eldar then Tau.

There's trillions? I thought there was only about 20 craftworlds and a few dozen maiden worlds. Care to correct me?

Any supposed 'final statement" about their numbers are conjecture mostly. We don't have the numbers for any race, especially not the Tau, Eldar or Dark Eldar. We can speculate that there could be billions or trillions due to the immense size of their realms. There may only be 20 Craftworlds, bu they're still Craftworlds, enormous space faring continents. Cammoragh is likewise big, a sprawling mass on uncounted smaller realms connected by portals between sections of the Webway, with many hidden layers and towers reaching as high as mountains.

Trololololol

I honestly think the Tau could put up a pretty good challenge to Imperial Forces. I mean, they're adapting at an incredible rate. If I remember right they are also in the 3rd phase of expansion, plus no one's really sure what Farsight is up to now fluff wise. I mean, the Eldar have suggested the Tau will inherit the Galaxy. They've fought the Imperium, Nids, and Orks on a massive scale and have changed tactics and equipment after all major encounters.

Plus their idea of warfare is massively different from the IoM's. Given the lack of importance of land to a Tau Commander and they're rapidly improving Stealth Suit technology, I imagine the invasion of a Sept world would be a mass of hit and run insurgency tactics, which we all know fluff wise the IoM is famously slow to react too. I mean how long would it take for the IoM to raise a force large enough to seriously conquer the entire Tau Empire? Then given the amount of Tau sympathisers in IoM worlds that have had contact with the Tau they're intelligence on the pending invasion would be plentiful.

I know militarily on a big massive battlefield the Tau would be slaughtered. But that's just not their idea of warfare, they don't see the need for heroic last stands often seeing them as signs of a stupid Commander. I just honestly think they'd have some get-away plan that might not involve beating the IoM but would certainly avoid their extinction.

As for numbers I'm pretty sure the Tau are more numerous than the Eldar, given the fact the Eldar rely on a dozen or so Craft-worlds that are rarely in contact with each other and some we aren't even sure if still in existence.

Ok, to this I must comment...

DivineSausage wrote:I honestly think the Tau could put up a pretty good challenge to Imperial Forces. I mean, they're adapting at an incredible rate. If I remember right they are also in the 3rd phase of expansion, plus no one's really sure what Farsight is up to now fluff wise. I mean, the Eldar have suggested the Tau will inherit the Galaxy.

And we all know how their "prophecies" get in the end ( Taldeer, Eldrad, Idranel... )

They've fought the Imperium, Nids, and Orks on a massive scale and have changed tactics and equipment after all major encounters.

So Great Crusade, 3'rd Armageddon war and Battle for Macragge were small engagements?

Plus their idea of warfare is massively different from the IoM's. Given the lack of importance of land to a Tau Commander and they're rapidly improving Stealth Suit technology, I imagine the invasion of a Sept world would be a mass of hit and run insurgency tactics, which we all know fluff wise the IoM is famously slow to react too. I mean how long would it take for the IoM to raise a force large enough to seriously conquer the entire Tau Empire? Then given the amount of Tau sympathisers in IoM worlds that have had contact with the Tau they're intelligence on the pending invasion would be plentiful.

Technology is not much when you are overwhelmed with enemies from all sides ( Germans in WW2 ). And Imperium can react fast, just see Nimbosa - Black Templars arrived just in nick of time and turn the tide. And why would Imperium attack Tau Empire when they have bigger treats right now ( like Tau are more important then Chaos or Tyranids anyway... ).

I know militarily on a big massive battlefield the Tau would be slaughtered. But that's just not their idea of warfare, they don't see the need for heroic last stands often seeing them as signs of a stupid Commander. I just honestly think they'd have some get-away plan that might not involve beating the IoM but would certainly avoid their extinction.

Because Tau never defended a world that was that much important to them. I bet if T'au got attacked they would defend it to the last Fire Warrior. Every Cadian would die to the last to defend Cadia, Vostroyan to, Kriegian to... And they would all give their lives to defend Terra. And I remember Tau army standing their ground to Gorgon to allow their non-combat personnel ( since Tau don't have civilians ) to evacuate a planet. If that is not Last Stand I don't know what it is.

As for numbers I'm pretty sure the Tau are more numerous than the Eldar, given the fact the Eldar rely on a dozen or so Craft-worlds that are rarely in contact with each other and some we aren't even sure if still in existence.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365341.page

Again, we agreed that Eldar are more numerous then Tau. Simply because 1 medium sized Craftworld is size of Earth and they have unknown numbers of Exodite worlds + There are more than 20 Craftworlds out there ( not sure how much, but giving the liberty of every player to create it's own - not little ). While Tau have a little over 100 worlds, wit h only 26 of them with heavy population.

I am sorry if I offended someone but I simply had to answer to this...

I think of the Tau Empire as being the (numerical) size of 30 Imperial civilised worlds. Tiny in the grand scheme of things, but not easy to take. Too many people assume that since the IoM is massive, it can deploy unlimited force wherever and whenever it wants-in reality delays in communication, deliberation and transportation mean that only a handful of Imperial worlds can be called upon at any given time to combat a threat, with the full might of the Imperium taking months or years to be deployed.

Kroothawk wrote:Well, at least we had two weeks without someone posting his Tau genocide fantasy

I feel I should point out that I neither hate the Tau nor wish to see them destroyed; indeed I'd be pleased to see more minor xenos factions expanded upon and made playable.

TrollPie wrote:I think of the Tau Empire as being the (numerical) size of 30 Imperial civilised worlds. Tiny in the grand scheme of things, but not easy to take. Too many people assume that since the IoM is massive, it can deploy unlimited force wherever and whenever it wants-in reality delays in communication, deliberation and transportation mean that only a handful of Imperial worlds can be called upon at any given time to combat a threat, with the full might of the Imperium taking months or years to be deployed.

Since they've done it plenty of times before, which is 'deploying the full might' it certainly wouldn't be a problem to raise the required forces to take out such a minor threat. The Tau would not be prepared for any large scale engagement with the Imperium. Nimbosa and the Damocles Gulf Crusade have proved this. When it matters, the Imperium hits hard. the DGC was only barely held back.

TrollPie wrote:Too many people assume that since the IoM is massive, it can deploy unlimited force wherever and whenever it wants

That is because someone wrote that Imperium have "millions of Regiments" all across the galaxy.

in reality delays in communication, deliberation and transportation mean that only a handful of Imperial worlds can be called upon at any given time to combat a threat, with the full might of the Imperium taking months or years to be deployed.

When this is a reality, less than 1% of Imperium true fighting force is not under arms. And for any of organised crusade or campaign you must train men, arm men, gather supplies, gather ships and only after all that you can send them to a campaign.

Brother Coa wrote:

Plus their idea of warfare is massively different from the IoM's. Given the lack of importance of land to a Tau Commander and they're rapidly improving Stealth Suit technology, I imagine the invasion of a Sept world would be a mass of hit and run insurgency tactics, which we all know fluff wise the IoM is famously slow to react too. I mean how long would it take for the IoM to raise a force large enough to seriously conquer the entire Tau Empire? Then given the amount of Tau sympathisers in IoM worlds that have had contact with the Tau they're intelligence on the pending invasion would be plentiful.

Technology is not much when you are overwhelmed with enemies from all sides ( Germans in WW2 ). And Imperium can react fast, just see Nimbosa - Black Templars arrived just in nick of time and turn the tide. And why would Imperium attack Tau Empire when they have bigger treats right now ( like Tau are more important then Chaos or Tyranids anyway... ).

Technology is extremely important in these circumstances. A single machine gun could hold a pass againt waves of spear-armed tribesmen, a single Titan could hold a pass against waves of Orks...

I know militarily on a big massive battlefield the Tau would be slaughtered. But that's just not their idea of warfare, they don't see the need for heroic last stands often seeing them as signs of a stupid Commander. I just honestly think they'd have some get-away plan that might not involve beating the IoM but would certainly avoid their extinction.

Because Tau never defended a world that was that much important to them. I bet if T'au got attacked they would defend it to the last Fire Warrior. Every Cadian would die to the last to defend Cadia, Vostroyan to, Kriegian to... And they would all give their lives to defend Terra

That's a major flaw in Imperial tactics. They place too much importance on territory. If a regiment of Vostroyans held the enemy off so the rest could evacute, it would save lives. If they decided to stand their ground and be annihalated, it would be a waste. If trillions of Guardsmen headed back to defend Terra, the Imperium would be destroyed by the sudden loss of manpower-if they instead sent a more proportionate number to combat the threat, the Astronomican wouldn't fall and the Imperium wouldn't be left defenseless. If Cadia was going to fall, evacuation would serve more purpose than a heroic last stand.
The Tau will willingly give up planets so their army can better prepare themeselves and save more than they would otherwise lose- even if it meant a beloved planet such as T'au would be destroyed. After all, once the threat is dealt with they can get the planet back. If they faced annihalation, they could evacuate in Craft World-esque ships. Numbers matter far more to Tau than territory.