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Hobowan wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

the abilit to loot anything would be interesting, but I can see it being very hard to balance

im not so sure. reading the IG codex, you see hundreds of different versions of essentially 4 vehicles, why not do the same for the LW? set up 3-4 different looted vehicle types and give slightly adapted rules for each. nothing extravagant or even necessarily new:

-tank option with option of kannon/zzap gun, plus 2-3 additional weapons, 12 front armour and 'ard case as standard
-transport option, only 1 hull mounted weapon(BS/RL), open top, boarding plank and armour plates as standard, with transport capacity of 20
-ordnance option with boomgun but no "dont touch dat" rule,'ard case as standard
-"hellhound" option with twin linked skorcha and 2-3 additional weapons, (burnas being an option for hull/sponsoon weapons). (actually always wanted an ork chem cannon so looting a chem cannon would be amazing! )

So in summary, lotted wagon types totally work if it is done at a high level and not left to be too nitty gritty. what they have now isnt enough, but if they go too far with it then will go oh so wrong

In summary: Add BigTrakk and Mekboy Junka rules from IA8 to the codex. This actually has come up on multiple forums(not just here on dakka) when discussing how to fix looted wagons, not just here. Neither variant of the looted wagon seems over the top, but provide toolboxes to represent even the funkiest looted vehicle. Besides fielding 7 SAGs in one army of course.

G00fySmiley wrote:

true, btu you just covered taking a chimera. I was tlakign liek an ork looting anythign and getting say... a landraider or monolith, or maybe a fire prysm

Perhaps i did just quote ork versions of the chimera variants, but perhaps their flexible use simply works well in the ork model too?

Theres nothing to limit the models you could use though - a leman russ gives you a tank with kannon, a predator/fire prism a tank with zzap gun, an immolator the "hellhound" class, the whirlwind the ordanance etc etc...other than the monolith, most models will fit in with one of the sections. Hll, the land raider could even pass as a 20 man transport!

having said that, rules wise, land raider and monolith would be incredibly difficult to loot and give enough leeway in the rules to make it an accurate loot without it being OP or having to create a whole new unit. Perhaps the hellhound option could be swapped for a (forgive the plagerism) super heavy option, witht he flamer option added to the tank section, but remember looted vehicls are supposed to be the poor cousins of their counterparts, so i dont think you could ever expect anything close to their power.

anyway, thats what a battlewagon is for

Jidmah wrote:
In summary: Add BigTrakk and Mekboy Junka rules from IA8 to the codex. This actually has come up on multiple forums(not just here on dakka) when discussing how to fix looted wagons, not just here. Neither variant of the looted wagon seems over the top, but provide toolboxes to represent even the funkiest looted vehicle. Besides fielding 7 SAGs in one army of course.

yeah, this works exactly right - a toolbox to customise two base models is exactly the flexibility that makes the LW more competitive.


ps, yeah the op has taken a huge tangent! sufficed to say, the gitz need something...either to justify their huge cost (ie better rules), make them more likely to get their points back (better equipment), or reorganize them into another section of the codex (eg a HQ guard, a nob upgrade etc)
much like looted wagons, they need to be more flexible and less a commitment to buy

emmmm....yeah, ok, gitz would want better than a looted wagon, but having them ride in the same BW's as nobz is not good enough for a git. They need better, and saying a looted wagon is better is me working with the code and trying to fluff it, I know its not, but what else is there?

Maybe a simple rule. Gitz may take a BW as a transport. It must take ONE MORE upgrade than any BW being fielded unless that BW is a dedicated transport for another troop of gitz??

Or maybe it must take red paint, 'ard case, and killkannon upgrades.

Which would make them unplayable again. 'ard case and Killkannon are 75 points worth of downgrades.
Note that Flash Git's don't have better armor or CC weapon than other unit's too, why enforce such a random restriction on their ride?

Agreed. Just giving them a BW transport is fine enough. You have to realize that owning a BW is probably a step over being royalty in an Ork army. So the simple fact that they even OWN a BW is testament to how rich they are

I put this in another post on the MWG, and thought I would share. I often play with 1 unit and a lot of times 2 units of Flash Gitz. I did write this in 2009, and is of course strictly my opinion and how I learned to use them to fit my playstyle. I believe any unit can be made useful and competitive with enough practice as well as a gameplan. I like to use them with Meganobz as well, my hopes for the new Ork Codex is that I will be able to take Flash Gitz as troops with Meganobz and rule the world

I'd like to try the min-unit method soon, and I think attaching the Mad Dok to them is a great idea too.



Flash Gitz have to be played in a particular way to make them effective, I have been trying different iterations the past few months. First off, they are all or nothing. You will need to dump in 480 points to get them 9 Flash Gitz, a Painboy, Shootier, More Dakka, Blastier, Cybork and 3 ammo runts (ammo runts are 1 reroll for a die). This will create a super tough, killy, multipurpose unit.

They also need to be supported. I am currently using Killa Kanz to do this, as they bring the Klaw. Something I am going to try is Burna Boyz, as they will have the counter charge and will all have power weapons .

They can also deal out plenty of hurt as well, seeing as you will be wounding almost everything on 2's ignoring even MEQ armor 2/3 of the time. Yes, you will have to hit first. But with 18 shots going out (more with Badrukk) you won't have to worry about much. On average, 6 shots will hit and 5 will kill MEQ. Yes please! Even when rolling 1's for Get's Hot, the firing unit still get's their saves. You will make these saves almost every time. In fact, the game I played on Wednesday this is the only way ANY WOUNDS WERE DEALT. Zoggin' crazy!

They can bust up vehicles. At STR 6, they can glance Rhino front armor and blow up most tanks if they shoot at the rear. Land Speeders and Trukks beware!

Flash Gitz can take a BOATLOAD of punishment. T4, Armor 4, Inv 5+, and Feel No Pain. Yeah, these guys are RUGGED! Make them Deathguard Boyz look weedy! They are a unit your opponent can't ignore, meanwhile your trukks are screaming up the flanks to bust them in the chops.

Baddrukk is a good choice. He will bring the leadership and some extra Dakka, not to mention 3 more Ammo Runts. A Big Mek with KFF isn't a bad choice, he can provide a 5+ cover save for the supporting unit as well. A Warboss is really nice, because he will take care of anything these Gitz can't (even though they are a proppa STR 5 on the charge!). A Warboss Bosspole will also keep the lads in line, in case things happen to get a bit hairy. My favorite choice for HQ with this unit is the Weirdboy. With the Warphead upgrade and some serious powers to choose from (Not to mention he is cheap) this is a good teamup. Want to know where this is really fun? 'Ere We Go. You can now POSITION these Flash Gitz where you want them. This has helped me get rear armor shots on Rhino's that needed to be on the front line, that instead got stranded in my opponents backfield. This helped put me into DAKKA range of GK Termis, get charged by what little was left, only to 'Ere We Go right out of assault next turn to take on a second unit. Loving it

A4? How's that?

The random AP is too unreliable for me. In mathhammer it's all well and good, but the roll being squad-wide makes bad luck a lot more likely. Roll a 4 for AP? Those BA are getting FNP. Rolled a 5? They're getting 3+ as well. In a third of shooting phases, they're going to bounce off the sort of units they're meant to take out.

That said, the Warphead plays you describe there sound good. I play Night Goblins as a mathhammer force, taking unreliable units galore; whilst one unit with a risky luck spread is unreliable, a whole army of chaotic win-lose buttons can be a hilarious spectacle.

Not something I'd take to a tourney, nor anything other than a good-humoured friendly game, but still good for a laugh.

So... Two units of Gitz with Warpheads, three units of Lootaz, Zagstruck and a big load o' boyz, some IA8 Grot Tanks, and a Looted Wagon. Take cover, da madboyz are INCOMING!

I was kind of being silly about the killkannon. Again, written word carries no emotion and I fail to remember that when posting...but the point was really that having the gitz run a BW that the nobz were running doesn't fit and gitz with a BW as a transpot when they and BW's are both heavy options seems like an upgrade for the BW at 125pnts and I don't think it's ok to take the two heavy options ultimately giving you 6 heavy options which again deters from what gitz could be if they were better heavy choices which they really aren't compared to the heavy choices. But you can get gitz and BW's together now if you want and it's a little bit more balanced than just giving you the possibility of 8 BW's filled with nobz, 3 of which are better armed and armored nobz.
If Flash gitz were ELITE and could take a BW as a transport then yes, that would be understandable, but again, a gitz riding alongside nobz with the same vehicle. So it still doesn't make sense for them to take the same transport as the nobz if they don't have some rule to make them orky and not just bettter. Such as...

It must take any upgrade another BW on the field has taken.
Again I would only agree that they should have it if they were moved to the elite spot.

However, I stand from the point of I like gitz and just want them to have upgrades such as powerklaw options and some form of actual heavy weapon with blast or lance or something. Forcing a player to take the transport for the nobz then walk the gitz into it is what I would gather the idea of the 4ed codex was, and there are many other ways to get them into the BW if you don't want to walk up T4 4+ armor (possibly5+inv, FnP) 2 wound models with 24" range. The only real problem for gitz is that there are so many specialized CC units now with fleet, that will slaughter them because, no powerweapons, no PK's.

They have no anti-tank and are barely anti-infantry with the way new infantry is, but they take up a heavy slot and that's why walking them becomes a "no" unless you have lootas behind them which is a list I like and works because there is no real target for my opponent to focus on and no specific unit I care about living because they they earn their points when backed by troops of boyz with the PK nobz in them. It is however not as good as gitz in a BW but a list that works and you may give it a try.

So, I digress, my ideas written were easily disposed of with simple and efficient statements as this may be. I admit the foolishness of quick suggestion there but am thankful for not being verbally assaulted. I also realize this response was more on target with the OP's question a bit.

Gitz are good but require more strategy to play with and don't work very well in tournament environments for most players. I like them, though I hated them at first, I gave them chances and made lists where they work for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DEZ I wanted to say I liked your post but I didn't add it into my convulxed response cause I was watching deadliest Warrior...Vlad killed Sun Tzu...not cool.

If I'd take a full unit, I would rather have them cruising around in a BW rather than adding a warphead.

The problem of a full unit is really what lindsay described. If you need to kill something they might fail you entirely. Not the kind of "Run, it's gonna blow!" fail SAGs and warpheads bring, but rather the "Meh." kind of fail.

KingCracker wrote:Agreed. Just giving them a BW transport is fine enough. You have to realize that owning a BW is probably a step over being royalty in an Ork army. So the simple fact that they even OWN a BW is testament to how rich they are

...that's a good point...