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Takeshishin wrote:Nids got Gargoyles. I can't really argue with i. For barely anything, you get a jump unit with a 4+ wound (Poison) and does well at causing mayhem.

Chaos got Rhinos. Major thing is getting the boys across the field, and since Chaos don't have Drop pods, like their brethren, a simple rhino is amazing for this purpose.

True on the Tyranid note. Then again, I would call them "good value" rather than underpriced. Underpriced, to me, indicates a unit that is a complete auto-include, that can function in any list. (See Space Wolves and Long Fangs, or any of my other examples)

labmouse42 wrote:I can only speak of the Codex's that I have known well. Some codex's have multiple 'awesome buys', so Its hard to pick one.

Eldar
Fire Dragon
10 points is the standard price for a melta gun. That means, for 6 points your paying for a aspect warrior statline.

Banshees
Like the fire dragon, most armies pay 10 points for a single power weapon. For 6 points your getting the shuriken pistol, banshee mask, fleet, and aspect warrior statline.
This is now overshadowed by the death cult assassins, which have a higher STR and more attacks and invlun save.

Eldrad
For just over 200 points, he brings three psychic powers per turn to the table, and runes of warding and witnessing and all four powers.
If you tried to buy all the gear that Eldrad comes with on a vanilla farseer, it would be nearly expensive as Eldrad. Eldrad gets all that gear, with the ability to use an extra power each turn, a higher toughness, and a better save.

Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

Banshees are a bargain on paper, but on the table top they aren't all that great. The rest of the codex has a problem supporting their abilities, from a lack of CC-oriented troop choices worth their salt to limited or no ability to properly transport the Banshees. Walking the Banshees instead become walking Ming Vases. As long as the Craftworlders lack open-topped transports or assault vehicles, the Banshees will remain significantly overpriced, unless they are given some other form of protection. AP4 weapons are excessively common.

Eldrad is very good, yes. Farseers in general have translated decently to the new edition, even though their psychic potency from fluff do not translate well to the game table.

I'm gonna think outside the box here and say Chimeras for IG, the only army I have extensive experience with.

For 55 points, you get two heavy weapons, transport capacity, and five fire points, especially useful when you're usually gonna be carrying vet squads kitted out with three SWs.

Mahtamori wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:I can only speak of the Codex's that I have known well. Some codex's have multiple 'awesome buys', so Its hard to pick one.

Eldar
Fire Dragon
10 points is the standard price for a melta gun. That means, for 6 points your paying for a aspect warrior statline.

Banshees
Like the fire dragon, most armies pay 10 points for a single power weapon. For 6 points your getting the shuriken pistol, banshee mask, fleet, and aspect warrior statline.
This is now overshadowed by the death cult assassins, which have a higher STR and more attacks and invlun save.

Eldrad
For just over 200 points, he brings three psychic powers per turn to the table, and runes of warding and witnessing and all four powers.
If you tried to buy all the gear that Eldrad comes with on a vanilla farseer, it would be nearly expensive as Eldrad. Eldrad gets all that gear, with the ability to use an extra power each turn, a higher toughness, and a better save.

Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

.

That depends on how lucky your Damage rolls go. It sucks to get a Pen and then roll a one on the chart. Having multiple gives a higher chance to actually destroy the vehicle.

Mahtamori wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:I can only speak of the Codex's that I have known well. Some codex's have multiple 'awesome buys', so Its hard to pick one.

Eldar
Fire Dragon
10 points is the standard price for a melta gun. That means, for 6 points your paying for a aspect warrior statline.

Banshees
Like the fire dragon, most armies pay 10 points for a single power weapon. For 6 points your getting the shuriken pistol, banshee mask, fleet, and aspect warrior statline.
This is now overshadowed by the death cult assassins, which have a higher STR and more attacks and invlun save.

Eldrad
For just over 200 points, he brings three psychic powers per turn to the table, and runes of warding and witnessing and all four powers.
If you tried to buy all the gear that Eldrad comes with on a vanilla farseer, it would be nearly expensive as Eldrad. Eldrad gets all that gear, with the ability to use an extra power each turn, a higher toughness, and a better save.

Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with [b]only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time. [/b]

Banshees are a bargain on paper, but on the table top they aren't all that great. The rest of the codex has a problem supporting their abilities, from a lack of CC-oriented troop choices worth their salt to limited or no ability to properly transport the Banshees. Walking the Banshees instead become walking Ming Vases. As long as the Craftworlders lack open-topped transports or assault vehicles, the Banshees will remain significantly overpriced, unless they are given some other form of protection. AP4 weapons are excessively common.

Eldrad is very good, yes. Farseers in general have translated decently to the new edition, even though their psychic potency from fluff do not translate well to the game table.

Actually that is quite far from the thruth. A BS4 melta has a ~21% chance of destroying a LR

Mahtamori wrote:Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

The problem is that a single MG has only a ~1/3 chance of destroying AV 14 on shooting. 5 of them greatly improves the chances of getting your desired result. As such, I would say that 5 of them are a good number to have in a squad.

Also, remember the other good use of dragons. They are fantastic for killing MCs and Mephistons.

I think point-for-point the genestealer is the best unit in the tyranid codex.
Gargoyles are tough to beat 6 points gets you a jump troop with a guardsman stat line. However, against MEQ style armies and hordes, you really have to take a decent swarm in order for their true effectiveness to show.

Really, I'd spend those points on more genestealers.

Gargoyles are fun, but stealers have won me games.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Mephiston. /thread

Rage all you want, you know it's true. Sure, he's worth ~200, but if he's not raking back in >1000 pts per game, you're using him wrong. That's a 500% pt payback. Amazing investment.

I do enjoy using Mephiston. How do you run him to such an effect? Do you give him a storm-raven? What sorts of targets do you send him after?

Mephiston is good, but hes not that god-like.
* I've tank shocked him, watching him fail his leadership, then walked him off the board.
* I've used plasma guns to down him
* I've seen him blow himself up on runes of warding
Sure hes good, but hes not a better value than the assault-razorback BA squad.

labmouse42 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

The problem is that a single MG has only a ~1/3 chance of destroying AV 14 on shooting. 5 of them greatly improves the chances of getting your desired result. As such, I would say that 5 of them are a good number to have in a squad.

No, Meltaguns have a 50% chance to destroy an LR on a piercing hit, because they're AP1. However, one should keep in mind that that's still a 50% chance of failing to destroy the LR, so there's really no such thing as Enuff Dakka when shooting at AV14 (or anything else, for that matter).


Back on topic, I think that the Hades Breaching Drill from Imperial Armor's Death Korps of Krieg codex is insanely undercosted. 50 points gets you a Deep Striking tank with a melta cannon, and your Elites get to Deep Strike in the same spot on your next turn, no reserve rolls needed!

Teln wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

The problem is that a single MG has only a ~1/3 chance of destroying AV 14 on shooting. 5 of them greatly improves the chances of getting your desired result. As such, I would say that 5 of them are a good number to have in a squad.

No, Meltaguns have a 50% chance to destroy an LR on a piercing hit, because they're AP1. However, one should keep in mind that that's still a 50% chance of failing to destroy the LR, so there's really no such thing as Enuff Dakka when shooting at AV14 (or anything else, for that matter).

You have to hit and pen too...

Teln wrote:No, Meltaguns have a 50% chance to destroy an LR on a piercing hit, because they're AP1. However, one should keep in mind that that's still a 50% chance of failing to destroy the LR, so there's really no such thing as Enuff Dakka when shooting at AV14 (or anything else, for that matter).!

How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss? -- Verbal

Just saying that a penetrating shot has a 50% of destruction is a gross underestimation of how difficult it is to destroy vehicles.
What if the melta gun misses? What is the penetration roll fails? Its a pretty hard calculation to get.
Last year I wrote a simulator that would run 100,000 shots on a target to determine the odds of destroying via the law of large averages. I just checked and a BS 4 MM has a ~21.01% of destroying AV 14 with a ~48% of delievering an 'effect' on the target (shaken, stunned, immobolized, destroyed, explode, weapon destroyed).

In the 5th edition vehicles are extremely tough to destroy, which is why the game has moved to a 'mech game'. Is this bad? Well, it means GW sells more models, which is what they are all for.

labmouse42 wrote:

Teln wrote:No, Meltaguns have a 50% chance to destroy an LR on a piercing hit, because they're AP1. However, one should keep in mind that that's still a 50% chance of failing to destroy the LR, so there's really no such thing as Enuff Dakka when shooting at AV14 (or anything else, for that matter).!

How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss? -- Verbal

Just saying that a penetrating shot has a 50% of destruction is a gross underestimation of how difficult it is to destroy vehicles.
What if the melta gun misses? What is the penetration roll fails? Its a pretty hard calculation to get.
Last year I wrote a simulator that would run 100,000 shots on a target to determine the odds of destroying via the law of large averages. I just checked and a BS 4 MM has a ~21.01% of destroying AV 14 with a ~48% of delievering an 'effect' on the target (shaken, stunned, immobolized, destroyed, explode, weapon destroyed).

In the 5th edition vehicles are extremely tough to destroy, which is why the game has moved to a 'mech game'. Is this bad? Well, it means GW sells more models, which is what they are all for.

What I was saying in my last post was that a meltagun has a 50% chance to destroy a Land Raider when it has already gotten a piercing hit. I never meant to imply that hitting and penetrating weren't issues, and if anyone got that impression then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

SM: Dakka pred! TH/SS are great and are a close second. But the dakka pred is more versatile.
BA: Assault squads with meltagun in a TL HF razorback.
Tau: ...nothing is really cheap. I do think the Shas'el is pretty good for the cost due to his diversity and his ability to play multiple roles in my army (wound soaker, force multiplier etc).
DE: Venoms, hands down.
IG: Chimera
Orks: KFF
Chaos: Deamon prince or rhino
Eldar: Far seer perhaps?

New SoB: Seraphim.But the WD codex is a mess and uneven.
DE: Venoms
Eldar: Fire Dragons

Broadside Battlesuits.

the chimera is definitely the most point efficient unit in the IG codex, perhaps even the entire game.

IG: Rough Riders. S5 I5 Powerweapons on the charge (yeah only once but that's all you need) for only 8pts!
SM: Terminators.
Necrons: Tombspider: 55pts can give you T6, 5W unit with a 3+ cover save as long as the scarab is in area terrain. If you kill the scarab, he just makes another.
Orks: Waagh Banner. 15pts = God Mode.
Eldar: Eldrad. Replaces two Seers for the price of one.

As a beginning player, this thread is full of great information!

Anpu-adom wrote:As a beginning player, this thread is full of great information!

Yes I am very happy to have started this thread, for the insight and the corrections. I wonder how much it will change with codex creep,

new SoB codex and new Necron Codex, hopefully both good additions.



I want sisters in Valkyries lol. Now that would be cool.

Dark Eldar Venoms. For 55pts you get one mean infantry shredding vehicle. with a 5++

It seems like the Guard in general are cheap and effective.

For BA, Assault Squads.

Buy a 5 man assault squad, get a free TL lascannon on your razorback!

The Hydra is a great deal for what it gives you.

War Walkers are dirt cheap, even having to buy a pair of guns. Vypers are a little more but IMO their awesome mobility makes up for it (and being in the grossly underused FA slot). Eldrad is a good bargain considering the gear you'd have to buy to get close to his capabilities. Fire Dragons and Banshees are relatively cheap, but they are also fragile and wave serpents are certainly not cheap. Admittedly, I haven't used them much, but Autarchs seem like a good bargain as well.

Well this is easy - Henchmen Warbands.

Warrior Acolytes (6), 6 x Storm Bolter, 3 x Meltagun, Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition - 122
Good against mech, good against horde and gives you cheap, reliable armour saturation.

Warrior Acolytes (12), 12 x Storm Bolter - 84
24 Storm Bolters shots for 84 points, not bad!

Psykers (4) - 40
A S6 Ap3 large blast for 40 points.

A Musketeer wrote:Dark Eldar Venoms. For 55pts you get one mean infantry shredding vehicle. with a 5++

This is not the correct cost.

Hmmm, for the Codexes I own...

TYRANIDS:

Gargoyle: 6 points per guy, jump infantry, 4+ poisoned for one extra point and autowound on to hit rolls of 6. Insane.

Tervigon: 160 points for a 6 wound MC is good enough. Add in the fact it can create more scoring units and be a scoring unit itself, along with give other creatures FNP for 15 extra and its a must take.

DARK ELDAR:

Ravager: 3 Lances on an awesome skimmer platform that is fairly cheap. This thing is devastating against any mech army.

Raider: 60 points for a fast skimmer DT that has a lance weapon and transport capacity of 10, and add just 10 points and it gets a 5+ invul save. Great stuff.

THousand Son Rubric Marines...

AP3 bolters that can be fired at 24 inches or two shots at 12 regardless of movement
Sorceror with potential dangerous psychic powers and a force weapon
3+ armor, 4+ invuln
Awesome color scheme
Not lobotomized
Dont smell funny or have pot-bellies
dont get aroused from shooting stuff with high frequency weapons
etc.

the other trade off is a full unit of flamers of tzeentch
35 points gets you 12 wounds on a 4 template weapons with no saves allowed, glances vehicles on a 4+ (which for anyone with math skills knows 2 glancing 6 hits equals wrecked) that are jump infantry and have the ability to use a power that can kill a land raider
oh and a 4+ invuln save...

cheers

WarlordRob117 wrote:THousand Son Rubric Marines...

AP3 bolters that can be fired at 24 inches or two shots at 12 regardless of movement
Sorceror with potential dangerous psychic powers and a force weapon
3+ armor, 4+ invuln
Awesome color scheme
Not lobotomized
Dont smell funny or have pot-bellies
dont get aroused from shooting stuff with high frequency weapons
etc.

Thousand Sons are possibly the worst troop in the CSM codex. They cost an arm and a leg, you're forced to take an expensive and fragile sorcerer, they can't take any sort of anti-tank weaponry, and in the end they still die like a bitch to anti-infantry shooting.

Crons: Deceiver, remember that 7 man assault termi death star that cost you 350 pts? Oh, and their LR? Oh, and you cant shoot me back with your pinned sternguard vets either.