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Valkyrie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Lemartes? That guy should be on the list of incredibly overpriced and near useless list.

Yes I often find a character that makes my DC re-roll wound and hits, has a MC Power Weapon, Jump Pack, can be S6 I6 very useless.

/sarcasm.

So you get to re-roll to hit and to wound against the unit your opponent wants you to charge(likely a suicide unit to begin with); congrats.

Either your usual opponents don't know how to kite Rage units, or you are cheating if you are getting to use this ability on your own terms.

Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

No Lemartes is neither cost effective, nor particularly useful(he is the BA version of Lukas the Trickster)

Of the armies I play:

IG: Vendetta, or Valk w/rocket pods, Also Hydra, Manticore, or Bassie

Nilla Marines: Chaplain Cassius, MM/HF or Ass-cann/SB Dread, Masyer of the Forge W/C-Beamer, or LRC w/MM+SB

SW: WGBL w/Mark, SS, Saga of the Warrior Born, and WT necklace(maybe add in a WTT), GH, Rune Preist, Lone Wolf W/Mark, or Missile long fangs.

Orks: Lootas, Burnas, KFF BM, Boom-wagon(only with proper target saturation), or a Boyz Mob.

Orks:

shoota boys and big mek KFF

GK dread with psybolt

And purifers with psycannons. I6 force weapons ok they are more expensive then basic troops but

if you equip normal guys with halberds they are 25 and for 26 you get 1 more attack per guy the cleansing fire power and the ability to take 2 psycannons.

Also GK rhino with the power to ignore stun and shaken is amazing.

BA

Assualt squads in razorbacks. more attacks in a fast tank that can shoot alot of S7 and S9 shoots

SW

Grey hunters get so many special abilities compared to normal marines for no more points.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No Lemartes is neither cost effective, nor particularly useful(he is the BA version of Lukas the Trickster)

To be fair, Lukas is still better than Lemartes, although he is far from cost effective (he typically costs more points than the squad he's with... when you could be running 2 Grey Hunter squads instead).

Daemons: Fiends or Flamers

Tau: While not a unit, I think we need to bring up the Disruption Pod for the Tau.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:Lemartes is terrible, as is Celestine. Terminators may be good, but they're in no way must take or points efficient.

For IG, I'd say the Manticore. Str 10 Large Blasts are always helpful.

Right, TH/SS Terminators aren't cost efficient and Lemartes/Celestine is bad. Got it. In other news, stocks are up, unemployment is down and the UN has just declared world peace forever.

Because TH/SS Terminators are the same thing as Terminators. Reading Comprehension. Celestine is pretty much crap, and Lemartes allows you to make a rage squad run after someone with slightly more murderous intent. Neither is point efficient and while Lemartes may be useful to make a highly killy squad even more ridiculously killy, he also makes a ridiculously overpriced squad more expensive.

Also, how about Farseers? Best force multiplier in the entire game right there.

I think Bloodcrushers are a steal at 40 pts. WS5, S5, T5, A3, W2, 3+/5++ with power weapons and Furious Charge? Yes, please.

30 pts/Fiend is also great. If they were a FA option, I'd be up to my eyeballs in them.

Furioso dreadnought with blood talons. AV13, WS6 with rerollable wounds and the potential for infinite attacks for 125 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, psychotroke grenades for Grey Knights. Seriously, Matt Ward needs to be punched in the balls so he knows how the rest of us feel.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

Are you sure Lemartes is 150 points? I thought he was a third that price (don't have my codex on me)

Irdiumstern wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:Lemartes is terrible, as is Celestine. Terminators may be good, but they're in no way must take or points efficient.

For IG, I'd say the Manticore. Str 10 Large Blasts are always helpful.

Right, TH/SS Terminators aren't cost efficient and Lemartes/Celestine is bad. Got it. In other news, stocks are up, unemployment is down and the UN has just declared world peace forever.

Because TH/SS Terminators are the same thing as Terminators. Reading Comprehension. Celestine is pretty much crap, and Lemartes allows you to make a rage squad run after someone with slightly more murderous intent. Neither is point efficient and while Lemartes may be useful to make a highly killy squad even more ridiculously killy, he also makes a ridiculously overpriced squad more expensive.

Also, how about Farseers? Best force multiplier in the entire game right there.

Back at you. The only one to mention Terminators before you, and thus the post which you indirectly referenced in your post, was the OP saying that Vanilla Terminators were the best unit in the 'dex. It's not that long of a stretch to figure that it's not tactical Terminators the OP is talking about, is it?

How is Celestine bad? She's like a Duracell bunny: she keeps on going, no matter what happens to her.

G00fySmiley wrote:
HQ
BigMek w/ KFF - 85 points for 4+ cover on vehicles and 5+ for all other units very good deal to make sure the ladz get up close where they want to be

Tyranids get their own BETTER version of the KFF on the Venomthrope for cheaper than we do. Not only does it give a cover save, but it also makes everything take dangerous terrain tests. On top of that, the Venomthrope is much better in CC than the Big Mek is. The Big Mek is an awesome unit, don't get me wrong... but I don't think they're a good deal points-wise.

For Orks, the basic Ork Boy is an awesome, cheap unit.

When I see the points cost for everything in the Space Wolves codex it makes me cry. It seems like EVERYTHING they have is cheaper / better than what everyone else gets.

The V-thrope is so easy to kill it's not even funny.

rigeld2 wrote:The V-thrope is so easy to kill it's not even funny.

Exactly, the thing that makes the KFF Mek so darn resilient is that he's in a vehicle with AV14 in the front. Sure, you can flank it and shoot it, but it takes way more effort.

Marshal Laeroth wrote:Without a doubt, it has to be the 70 point Land Speeder Typhoons for the Black Templars. They are great at 90 points, but 70? Pretty much a must take.

Wow, didn't know BT's get them that cheap, I've had the 90 pt SM ones bite me in the butt so many times they are target priority 1 when they show up.

It's that 3x HB shots and 2x Frag missiles after moving 12" that makes my Orks into goo :(

Orks - Deffcoppa's if you go first for 60ish points you get an easy first turn assault against a vehicle that did not move. Take 3 squads of one and take out most of their armour on turn one. Plus they now have to deal with the 60 point unit in their face while leaving the rest of your army alone.

EDIT:

LeMartes - A few things to keep in mind. He does not require the rest of the unit to take jump packs. You can take him plus 3-10 DC and they all fit in a Storm Raven. Since most people take DC with a Chaplin, LeMartes is only an Extra 50pts. He has better stats, benefits from FNP which the Chaplin does not, and has FC which the Chaplin does not.

Also LeMartes canNOT to targeted in Close combat with the Chaplin can be. So when comparing him to a Chaplin he is the better unit.

jbunny wrote:So when comparing him to a Chaplin he is the better unit.

Invalid assumptions. Chaplains aren't inherently tied to Death Company. Lemartes is.

severedblue wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

Are you sure Lemartes is 150 points? I thought he was a third that price (don't have my codex on me)

So you made a thread about the most point efficient Units and not know the price of a unit?

But i do believe Lemates is a little expensive.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The V-thrope is so easy to kill it's not even funny.

Exactly, the thing that makes the KFF Mek so darn resilient is that he's in a vehicle with AV14 in the front. Sure, you can flank it and shoot it, but it takes way more effort.

Not to mention that it competes with Zoanthropes and Hive Guard.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The V-thrope is so easy to kill it's not even funny.

Exactly, the thing that makes the KFF Mek so darn resilient is that he's in a vehicle with AV14 in the front. Sure, you can flank it and shoot it, but it takes way more effort.

agreed, or in a greentide army he's attached to 30 T4 models to take shooting wounds for him

severedblue wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

Are you sure Lemartes is 150 points? I thought he was a third that price (don't have my codex on me)

This would explain why you'd think he was cost-effective. lol

Yes, he's 150.

Valkyrie wrote:
Uhh no, you don't have to take Jump Packs. You should if you're taking him, but you're not compelled to.

Yeah... if someone took Lemmy and just left the DC on foot it would be even MORE laugh inducing, not less. Really he doesn't have much of anything that a regular Chappy or Reclusiarch won't give them without the drawbacks...for less points.

IG

Vendetta - most point efficient and best unit in the codex.

Marbo - cheap and good...too bad he isn't really used much.

severedblue wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

Are you sure Lemartes is 150 points? I thought he was a third that price (don't have my codex on me)

As slave confirmed, yes I am sure; I rarely post anything without double-checking in the relevant rulebook(I get myself into trouble when I do otherwise, as I generally post on any/every armylist; of course my stubborn refusal to get the stealth re-print of the necron codex still makes some remarks on that book erroneous, which is why I always make it a point to ask if a given unit/rule was changed and give my opinion based on the first printing with a caveat).

For the most part I've been beaten to the punch, but I'm going to throw my two cents in for the codices I play:

SW: Grey Hunters with Long Fangs a VERY close second. GH get the nod because they are scoring, and still better than some armies' elites options.

GK: I have to give it to the Crusader. A storm shield for half the points Space Wolves play, and a body to go with it...oh, wait, they also have a POWER WEAPON? Really Mat?

DE: Trueborn with blasters in a venom. Scary. They are not the cheapest anti-tank option, but they are the best.

Daemons: I have to give it to the Flamers first, then the fiends. The Bloodletters are great, but they are much, much less efficient when you aren't facing MEQ. Flamers and Fiends do just about as well against MEQ as they do GEQ and even vehicles. A fiend with Unholy Might has a chance to penetrate a land raider. Well, six chances on the charge.

3 Kans with Grotzookas. 6 S6 ap5 small blast templates at BS3.

Blood Angles: Sanguinary Priest. 65 points for a 6" FnP bubble? On MEQ? Bull gak.

Daemons: Fiends. 6 of them run over most infantry units for less than the points of a unit of Termies, and they can also move up to 24" a turn.

CSM: Basic Rhino w/Havoc Launcher or Plague Marines.

DE: 2x Splinter Cannon Venom. Oh look, 12 shots a turn from across the board, and a small profile for abusing cover saves, and a 5+ Invuln, and the abilty to turboboost? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat.

Eldar: 3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers. 180 points for a mobile terrain piece that throws out 24 S6 shots a turn, and can be guided? Hell yeah.

GK: Purifiers. Halberds, Cleansing Flame and Psycannons. That is all.

Guard: Meltavets. Or Marbo.

Crons: Eh. Probably Destroyers.

Orks: KFF Mek. Sure, not as good as a Sanguinary Priest, but stick it in a Battlewagon or take 2 in a Green Tide list and suddenly it's a nightmare to kill them all. Shoota Boyz are also easily the single most cost-effective troop unit in the game.

SoB: I have absolutely no idea because I haven't even bothered to read the codex.

Space Marines: TH/SS Termies. Vulkan and Null Zone means everything they touch dies.

Space Wolves: Long Fangs. No discussion points necessary.

Tau: Eh...

Nids: Probably either the Tervigon or Hive Guard since they're staples in most comp Nids lists (comp Nids, lol)

Psy-riflemen Dreads are undercosted by about 15-20 points. Purifiers by 3-5 ea and if everyone else pays 15 for a Plasma Gun they should be paying at least 20 for a Psycannon.

Hydras are definitely undercosted by about 10 points.

Grey Hunters are undercosted, should be 16 ea. Long Fangs are drastically undercosted. Full unit with MLs should be ~30 points more. Conversely TH/SS combo on WG Terminators is overpriced by 15-20 points. Wonder why you don't see WG Hammernators ever...

Lash Sorcerors. 125? 135 would be more appropriate.

DA and BT Typhoons, way undercosted but it's an old book. Meh.

Kanz are idiotically undercosted...bump them 15 pts each, reduce to AV10, or to AV11 open topped.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Yeah... if someone took Lemmy and just left the DC on foot it would be even MORE laugh inducing, not less. Really he doesn't have much of anything that a regular Chappy or Reclusiarch won't give them without the drawbacks...for less points.

I think this is the biggest crux of the argument.

For lemartes you get a beast on the charge, but his real usefulness begins when he takes a wound.
At +20 points more than a reclusiarch you give up a wound, an attack, and take +1 initiative and Furious Charge, comparatively.

For the points you pay for lemartes you could be giving the reclusiarch a plasma pistol, infernus pistol, or power fist (which i think is the weakest option here as he already comes with a power weapon and you could always throw the fist on a DC for the same points). Additionally, with 1 more power weapon attack and one more wound, i think you get a more consistent performance out of the reclusiarch than you do lemartes, despite how awesome he is. Lastly, the Reclusiarch has freedom in the groups he can attach to, whereas lemartes is bound to his brothers in black.

Tau - erm...hhmmmmm...

I think someone said it before but our best priced unit isn't even a unit. It's a piece of gakking wargear. Albeit a very VERY good one for 5 pts. Saved my bacon many times :-)

Kroot maybe? :-S I love fielding these buggers and they always do really well. 10 Kroot and 5 hounds for 100 points with outflank/infiltrate. Just pray your board has trees on it though!
I use two squads of these in that config and it always gives opponents something to think about. Even if they are just diversionary.

I managed to bring both squads on the same side of the board once and my opponent had to redirect a fair whack of his force to deal with them leaving me to go on the offensive.

STILL - We are massively overpriced on everything else! :(

Mephiston. /thread

Rage all you want, you know it's true. Sure, he's worth ~200, but if he's not raking back in >1000 pts per game, you're using him wrong. That's a 500% pt payback. Amazing investment.

Guard: Vendetta. Perfectly suited to a vehicle-saturated game...

Orks: Boyz. Duh. 6pts of win!

Blood Angels: Sanguinary Priests. I would pay 100pts for them...

Tyranids: Nothing really underpriced... maybe tervis, but they are random...

Dark Eldar: Venoms.

Nids got Gargoyles. I can't really argue with i. For barely anything, you get a jump unit with a 4+ wound (Poison) and does well at causing mayhem.

Chaos got Rhinos. Major thing is getting the boys across the field, and since Chaos don't have Drop pods, like their brethren, a simple rhino is amazing for this purpose.