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Does it look like an Inferno Pistol? If the answer is "Yes", then you have met WYSIWYG requirements.

This isnt a hard concept people...

Sure it looks like one to me. It looks like an inferno pistol in a holster.

You are correct in that it isn't that hard of a concept.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Sure it looks like one to me. It looks like an inferno pistol in a holster.

You are correct in that it isn't that hard of a concept.

Does it look like it could be anything else? What if it's supposed to be a plasma pistol in a holster? Or a bolt pistol in a holster?
If it could be any of them, but is not guaranteed to be one of them, it's not WYSIWYG.

That is the problem. If it "could be" anything else then even conversions are not allowed as 2 different people making similar looking conversions could call them totally different weapons.

All I'm saying is that I'm not so anal that I demand to see the whole piece of wargear. Heck I don't have an army that is even capable of fielding one of those weapons yet I wouldn't think twice about calling someone out if he says his guy has his holstered as long as it is in his list and I see the points were paid for it.

2 people making conversions that are similar but are counted as something different won't ever be a problem - because they won't be playing against the same person at the same table.
I already addressed conversions anyway - rule of cool applies, and as long as you don't have 2 in your army that look similar but count as something different it should be fine.

I don't care in friendly games, but in a tournament that enforces WYSIWYG I'm going to call it out.

Guess we differ there. If a player has one model with a holster and says that guy has a pistol in it I'm not going to cry about it. It would be easily identifiable to me. Now if he has 20 guys with holsters that would be a different story.

My assumption was that, since I have (out of about 20-30 space marine models) 4-5 models with holsters (and I'm not going out of my way to collect either marines or holsters), that there are holsters on the generic units.

Yes, if there's only one holster in the army, or all holsters have an infernus pistol, I don't care if it's 100% modeled or not. Since that is not usually the case, I would care.

Its not a matter of being a cry baby or not. Nobody cares about proxies, proxies are the opposite of WYSIWYG and they exist so you can figure out if you want a unit or not.

What is being asserted is that you might be in for a nasty surprise if you show up to a tournament with holsters.

Tournament WYSIWYG rules =/= what's acceptable in a pickup game

By NOS's definition, the holstered pistol bit doesn't look like ANY pistol, bolt, Infernus or otherwise. Also by NOS's definition, every type of grenade needs to be modeled onto a Tactical Marine, as well as actual bolt pistol bitz (since the holstered pistol looks like nothing, and isn't even representative of a bolt pistol-sans-clip in size). Also by NOS's definition of WYSIWYG, Eldar Dire Avenger models that have been assembled with the hand drying cloth, crotch-covering bits that have Eldar "grenades" are modeled incorrectly...they clearly represent something the model is not allowed to have and must be removed lest an opponent make a decision based on the false assumption that Dire Avengers have and/or may have assault grenades.

There most certainly IS a problem with taking WYSIWYG too far, and this holster/no holster blather just proves it. Hard line WYSIWYG observers need a dose of their own medicine from the other perspective, so if they have something on their model(s) that will cause a player to question the legality of a model having the availability for said and such upgrade in the first place said bit(z) need to be removed in order to comply with WYSIWYG...

Or, when the guy says "The holster on his hip represents an Infernus pistol.", you could say "Cool. Good luck, friend. Let's have a good game."

commissarkurn wrote:By NOS's definition, the holstered pistol bit doesn't look like ANY pistol, bolt, Infernus or otherwise.

Sure. But if it's a bolt pistol (on a model that has a bolt pistol standard) it doesn't matter.

Also by NOS's definition, every type of grenade needs to be modeled onto a Tactical Marine, as well as actual bolt pistol bitz (since the holstered pistol looks like nothing, and isn't even representative of a bolt pistol-sans-clip in size).

False. Only upgrades must be modeled. Grenades on tac marines are standard equipment, as are bolt pistols (iirc).

Also by NOS's definition of WYSIWYG, Eldar Dire Avenger models that have been assembled with the hand drying cloth, crotch-covering bits that have Eldar "grenades" are modeled incorrectly...they clearly represent something the model is not allowed to have and must be removed lest an opponent make a decision based on the false assumption that Dire Avengers have and/or may have assault grenades.

I'll refrain since I'm not familiar with the Eldar codex.

There most certainly IS a problem with taking WYSIWYG too far, and this holster/no holster blather just proves it. Hard line WYSIWYG observers need a dose of their own medicine from the other perspective, so if they have something on their model(s) that will cause a player to question the legality of a model having the availability for said and such upgrade in the first place said bit(z) need to be removed in order to comply with WYSIWYG...

Bring it on. I'm already buying the toxin sacs to put on my genestealers and hormagaunts. If a tournament says WYSIWYG, then you better believe I'm going to call it out.

Or, when the guy says "The holster on his hip represents an Infernus pistol.", you could say "Cool. Good luck, friend. Let's have a good game."

In a friendly game, yes.

Commisarkurn - so, another reading fail there.

Reread my posts. Note that bit about "upgrades"? Note that we're talking about an infernus pistol, whicih is an UPGRADE?

UPGRADES must be modelled. Sheesh, NOT a hard concept!

Boss - no, it looks like a generic pistol. So, its a bolt pistol, because that is what the model is armed with by default.

If you want an infernus, model an infernus, or dont go to a tournament where WYSIWYG is a requirement. Otherwise - guess what, that model doesnt get to play (at best!) when someone complains. ESPECIALLY if you have 10 guys with holsters, 2 have infernus, 1 has plasma and 7 have bolt pistols. I am not going to spend time and effort remembering something the rules of the tournament told you YOU must comply with.

Yes...I understand...upgrades.
Does every player memorize every upgrade option for every unit in every codex. Possible, but I'm sure not every single player does, even tourney attendees. So, by the very definition of WYSIWYG nothing may be added that isn't allowed for, nor may anything be omitted, regardless if it's standard or not. Otherwise "WHAT YOU SEE" is not applicable.

This response is not about you, NOS. This is about WYSIWYG.
And in future, if you would like to make an obscure reference to something I have posted in the past that you disagreed with, I kindly ask you now and in the future to stow it.

commissarkurn wrote:Yes...I understand...upgrades.
Does every player memorize every upgrade option for every unit in every codex. Possible, but I'm sure not every single player does, even tourney attendees. So, by the very definition of WYSIWYG nothing may be added that isn't allowed for, nor may anything be omitted, regardless if it's standard or not. Otherwise "WHAT YOU SEE" is not applicable.

Upgrades must be WYSIWYG. If someone uses grenades with a space marine unit, and is questioned about the models lacking grenades, an answer of "standard issue" is enough. If you don't believe him, check his codex. You're taking this into a straw man extreme.

Far Seer - go Holster, bro. It's a good call.

commissarkurn - chillax, mayne. Yes, every good player memorizes every upgrade for every unit in his own codex (or codices). If you think someone modeled something that is BS ask them to show you in their codex, or call over a judge. WYSIWYG should actually read WYSIWYGBIWYMICOTLTYCUTMAWMLL, which means "what you see is what you get, but if what you modeled isn't codex or tournament legal then you can't use that model and will most likely lose".
Acronyms...

You also have to account for tastes visually. If I model a Khorne berserker with two chain axes that doesn't mean that he get's extra attacks, it just means he looks cool. Conversely, if you model a dreadnaught with two ccw and lascannons strapped to the bottom of them you are going to get confused looks from everyone (unless it's like a GK dread, they probably get stuff like that standard).

Really, it comes down to "If you model it, you better have paid the points for it - and if you pay points for it, it better be modeled."

I think it would be fine with the holster on the sargent, as long as other sargents don't have a holsters.

The point of wysiwyg is so that there is no confusion for your opponent on what guy has what upgrades. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal to some of you, but it causes a disadvantage because the opponent has to remember that their is a holster on that guy, and that it contains a infernus pistol, rather than just seeing the pistol.

What if an opponent told you an infernus was in the holster at the beginning of the game. Now fast forward to turn 6. It's super competitive and you guys are nearly tied. The game has been hard fought for 2 hours. You tank shock him to move his troops off an objective, but angle over his sergeant because you forgot he had the infernus because the holster isn't very visable. He blows your tank up in a death and glory and you end up losing. How does that feel? If the pistol was visable you would have automatically known and won instead of losing. He gained an advantage from modelling, and that is not fair.

commissarkurn wrote:Yes...I understand...upgrades.

Which means only upgrades, as thats what tourney packs say.

commissarkurn wrote:Does every player memorize every upgrade option for every unit in every codex. Possible, but I'm sure not every single player does, even tourney attendees. So, by the very definition of WYSIWYG nothing may be added that isn't allowed for, nor may anything be omitted, regardless if it's standard or not. Otherwise "WHAT YOU SEE" is not applicable.

Again, youre twisting this around.

What "every player" does, generally, is know what basic equipment models come with. So BP/Bolter/Frag/Krak for a standard codex marine. This means that you know to expect that a meltagun in the unit would be modelled, as it is an upgrade. Its not tricky.

commissarkurn wrote:And in future, if you would like to make an obscure reference to something I have posted in the past that you disagreed with, I kindly ask you now and in the future to stow it.

sigh

OK, how about this - you posted

"By NOS's definition, the holstered pistol bit doesn't look like ANY pistol, bolt, Infernus or otherwise. "

This is False. I actually posted that a holstered pistol looks like a GENERIC pistol -as in, it could be any of bolt, plasma, infernus. So, lying about what I said? Fail

"Also by NOS's definition, every type of grenade needs to be modeled onto a Tactical Marine,"

This is False. I NEVER stated anything like that. I stated *upgrades* must be modeled and - guess what. Theyre standard equipment. So, lying about what I said? Fail

"as well as actual bolt pistol bitz (since the holstered pistol looks like nothing, and isn't even representative of a bolt pistol-sans-clip in size). "

Thats 2 lies right there.

Understand now? In future, when you maie gak up about what I supposedly said, or insert words into my mouth that I never posted, dont.

I would strongly reccomend that everyone stops and takes a deep breath before posting further in this thread. For good measure, maybe remind yourselves that you're discussing the rules of a game of toy soldiers. The snark is unnecessary, and adds nothing constructive to the discussion.

nosferatu1001 wrote: If you want an infernus, model an infernus, or dont go to a tournament where WYSIWYG is a requirement. Otherwise - guess what, that model doesnt get to play (at best!) when someone complains. ESPECIALLY if you have 10 guys with holsters, 2 have infernus, 1 has plasma and 7 have bolt pistols. I am not going to spend time and effort remembering something the rules of the tournament told you YOU must comply with.

I run RTTs almost every other month for my gaming club and you are wrong. If someone brings a SGT with a holstered pistol and paid the points for an infernus pistol I will allow it as long as no other models have holstered weapons. Oddly enough in the 4 years I've been here in this area doing this I haven't had a single WYSIWYG complaint. Go figure.

Are they tournaments within your club? Thats a bit different to running a 120 player tournament with people turning up from all over the country to play.

Nice logical fallacies there though - appeal to authority and personal experience as objective fact

Also: "paid the points for an infernus pistol I will allow it as long as no other models have holstered weapons."

Did you read any of my other posts? For example the one about "counts as " (which the holster is doing) and being consistent? You're not exactly making a new point here...

Well if you include folks coming in from 2 other states to enter tournies I run that aren't club regulars then yes. And oddly enough we don't even use the INAT and still have fun competive tournies.

And again the holstered weapon is not a "counts as" unless you can can prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that infernus pistols in holsters are different.

I have always taken WYSIWYG as there to remove confusion. So, if you have 3 Sgts, 2 of which have IP upgrades and those two models have a holstered pistol, that should be good enough. If however all three have holstered pistols representing both IP and Bolt Pistols, then that is confusing.

Homer

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Well if you include folks coming in from 2 other states to enter tournies I run that aren't club regulars then yes. And oddly enough we don't even use the INAT and still have fun competive tournies.

We dont use INAT either, as a general rule - its not seen often in the UK.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:And again the holstered weapon is not a "counts as" unless you can can prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that infernus pistols in holsters are different.

ERm, come again? I need to prove that a HOLSTER is different to an INFERNUS PISTOL? Are you kidding now?

When I see a holster, are you saying you see an Infernus pistol? Because if not then you are indeed in the realms of "counts as" - the "holster" is counts-as an Infernus pistol, because the two are in no way shape or form the same items.

Homer S wrote:I have always taken WYSIWYG as there to remove confusion. So, if you have 3 Sgts, 2 of which have IP upgrades and those two models have a holstered pistol, that should be good enough. If however all three have holstered pistols representing both IP and Bolt Pistols, then that is confusing.

Homer

This, exactly.

So in your world a holstered weapon is not allowed to be used for anything other than decoration? I'm saying I see an infernus pistol in a holster. It isn't that difficult a concept to grasp as long as no other models have holsters that carry other weapons then I do no have an issue with it and would allow it.

I believe this is at the point where we will never agree and I'm fine with that.

Erm, can you please, for once, point out where those words youre putting into my mouth come from?

You're making ludicrous statements not based off any thing ive actually stated.

No, as I've said AT LEAST 3 times now, a holster can be used to represent a pistol in a "counts as" fashion. The fact it can stand in for Infernus, Plasma or Bolt is the PROBLEM you are not acknowledging here - by definition unless you represent the actual piece of wargear, you are playing Counts-As. It doesnt get simpler than that - unless you represent the actual piece of wargear somewhere on the model you have not complied with WYSIWYG, but are attempting counts-as. These are separate concepts.

This is fine for most places- as I've said and even commented on YOU stating this - as long as it isnt confusing. I even gave an example of 10 guys with holsters to illustrate the issue. But it is NOT wysiwyg. It cannot be because what you see (a holster containing A generic pistol) is NOT what you are "getting" (an infernus pistol, aka a specific pistol)

"I'm saying I see an infernus pistol in a holster."
This, by definition, is a strict lie - you cannot make that statement with certainty. You are seeing A pistol in a holster that you have been TOLD is an Infernus pistol. That is NOT wysiwyg. I'm an auditor by trade so I'm being precise with my language here - not trying to offend but to explain, using the limited mode of communication that is text only, the differences in concept here.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:So in your world a holstered weapon is not allowed to be used for anything other than decoration? I'm saying I see an infernus pistol in a holster. It isn't that difficult a concept to grasp as long as no other models have holsters that carry other weapons then I do no have an issue with it and would allow it.

I believe this is at the point where we will never agree and I'm fine with that.

It can be used to represent a specific pistol, if no other holster in the army is being used to represent a different specific pistol.

Which is what we've been saying. You keep strawmaning.

WYSIWYG is making this deal even more complicated, but I do understand the value of it. The problem is if I want to take another pistol instead of the infernus, I'd have to find a way to magnetise both of the pistols onto the guy''s arm, shoulder, whatever, etc. Since bolt pistols are standard equipment, if my sergeants with the 2 handed TH had NO pistol modelled on them, would I be allowed to use his bolt pistol?

Yes. As we've said - places that try to enforce WYSIWYG across all equipment - even standard issue - are silly. You should only have to worry about upgrades.

And yes. Modeling upgrades isn't always trivial. But it's part of the hobby.