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Perfectly fine with me, but if your really worried about it, just glue one of the holstered pistols bits on them. Problem solved

Far Seer - yes, if you havent bought an upgrade you dont need to model anything special. As long as he looks like a sarge I know he comes with a pistol, so you get to use it.

Boy do some people know how to take the joy out of playing a game. If you tell me it is an inferno it is an inferno, get over your nitpicking, anal attitudes and remember we are mostly adullts playing with toy soldiers!

Sheesh, we'd never have thought of that

OK, so what if there are 10 guys with holsters, all identically painted, 3 have infernus, 2 plasma and the rest bolt pistols. Now imagine its the 3rd or 4th game of the day, and you're suddenly expected to remember who has what (because they all look identical) because the person couldnt be bothered to follow the rules of the tournament

THAT sucks mroe fun out of the game, especially when coincidentally its always the squad within 3" that has the infernus, and the plasma are next to your terminators.

Except he's talking about two Sgts, not ten, and they're all equipped the same way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sheesh, we'd never have thought of that

OK, so what if there are 10 guys with holsters, all identically painted, 3 have infernus, 2 plasma and the rest bolt pistols. Now imagine its the 3rd or 4th game of the day, and you're suddenly expected to remember who has what (because they all look identical) because the person couldnt be bothered to follow the rules of the tournament

THAT sucks mroe fun out of the game, especially when coincidentally its always the squad within 3" that has the infernus, and the plasma are next to your terminators.

I agree, if you have multiple models with different pistols all in holsters it is confusing. If the different pistols are differentiated somehow, it makes it a bit easier.

Fearspect wrote:Except he's talking about two Sgts, not ten, and they're all equipped the same way.

ANd its still not WYSIWYG. It's counts -as

"These Holsters COUNT AS infernus pistols"

If you are entering a competition which requires full wysiwyg on upgrades, and disallows Counts as, then using holsters is NOT wysiwyg and is therefore against the rules

Conflating the two terms is misleading.

I am going to model 100 orks with long capes and backpacks. Then I will tell opponents that all the weapons of these orks are held under the capes and backpacks. If they could cross-section the plastic backpack, you would find a slugga on this one and a loota on this one.

My entire army is WYSIWYG.

nkelsch wrote:I am going to model 100 orks with long capes and backpacks. Then I will tell opponents that all the weapons of these orks are held under the capes and backpacks. If they could cross-section the plastic backpack, you would find a slugga on this one and a loota on this one.

My entire army is WYSIWYG.

Love it!

@nosferatu1001
After reading your posts, I realised that I would never play you, you just sound pathetic.

'All I can see is a holster, not a weapon' well by that logic, I cannot see your space marines, all I can see is a lot of dynamically posed armour. I can even take this to the next level, I see no space marines, I only see some toy soldiers.

Personal attacks are against DakkaDakka rules. Any legitimate point can be made without resorting to insults. Thanks! ~Manchu

K? I agree with him. A holster by itself is not a weapon.

edit: Also, you don't need to resort to insults. You should probably edit that out.

Its odd. I have plenty of opponents who seem to enjoy playing me....*shrug*

If you cant see why being able to actually see an infernus pistol is sometimes important, despite 4 pages of people trying to explain it - not sure you'll ever understand.

I would play Nos, he seems to know what he is doing, and with the record he has on Dakka, he clearly knows hopw to play a game. Look me up if you are ever in Belfast.

Will do City I've never been to , will have to try to get a work trip over one day!

I too would love to try going against Nos, unfortunately, he would hate to play me (too many "counts as" until I can finish modding)

I dont have a problem with Counts As. Not at all - as I've *repeatedly* said! I love awesome looking armies - hell I played (5th game Indy GT 2011, Maelstrom games) an entirely "counts as" army of Ad Mech, using nid rules. It was *awesome*

All I am doing is showing the difference between WYSIWYG and Counts as, and explaining why one isnt the other - and if your event requires the former what that means.

Far Seer wrote:WYSIWYG is making this deal even more complicated, but I do understand the value of it. The problem is if I want to take another pistol instead of the infernus, I'd have to find a way to magnetise both of the pistols onto the guy''s arm, shoulder, whatever, etc. Since bolt pistols are standard equipment, if my sergeants with the 2 handed TH had NO pistol modelled on them, would I be allowed to use his bolt pistol?

I keep a magnet on the rear left/right of most of my sergeant's belts, for attaching additional wargear, like Melta Bombs and such. The same concept should work just fine for Infernus Pistols and Bolt Pistols (you're not required to model a Bolt Pistol, but I try to do so anyway on models that don't have any other gun).

@nosferatu1001 I realise I may have been a bit OTT there, what I mean is, if you are playing to the levels of strict WYSIWYG that you are describing, I think that you would take things to stupid levels of RAW, which would make you undiserible to play against IMHO.
Of course, I don't know you IRL, so I can't really make any sort of judgement on you.

OT; I think that if you clearly state which unit has what, and that said sergeant has his inferno pistol in his holster because he hasn't got it in his hand, it should be alright, although make sure your opponent is OK with it.

Hey,


There is a very simple solution to this.

Put the holster on the Sgt.

Clip the handle.

Replace with an infernus pistol handle or something something similar so it doesn't look like a standard holster.

Problem solved.

Nothing says the model has to be holding the weapon ready to fire. I do agree that it does need a bit more representation than a plain holster.


Good luck!

empirespy wrote:
OT; I think that if you clearly state which unit has what, and that said sergeant has his inferno pistol in his holster because he hasn't got it in his hand, it should be alright, although make sure your opponent is OK with it.

But 'you should have to remember what I saw and not what you can see on the model' is a burden on your opponent. And your position is if he doesn't want to be burdened, then something is wrong with him.

In competitive environments with WYSWIYG rules, you do not have the right or expectation to force burdens on opponents, regardless if you think it is reasonable to do so.

Holsters are not WYSIWYG or COUNTS AS, especially if you have 10 models with holsters and only 3 of them have inferno pistols. This is the same garbage of the chainsword being power weapons or CC weapons because people don't want to model simple and clear upgrades. If you opponent has to 'remember' anything, then it is a burden and you shouldn't expect to get away with it when WYSIWYG is required. It is an entitled 'rules don't apply to me' attitude.

empirespy wrote:@nosferatu1001 I realise I may have been a bit OTT there, what I mean is, if you are playing to the levels of strict WYSIWYG that you are describing, I think that you would take things to stupid levels of RAW, which would make you undiserible to play against IMHO.

He's stated - many times - that when he's discussing WYSIWYG it's in relation to tournaments/events that require WYSIWYG. If you sign up for such an event, and show up with something like holsters instead of pistols, or all LasCannons where you mean to have Missile Launchers, it's your fault for not complying and you should expect someone to call over the TO.

@Nos
Apologies. From reading your posts it seemed to me that you only play strictly WYSIWYG. Then again as only Character models (which I'm assuming to be IC's as named characters don't normally have options) have to be WYSIWYG, maybe there wouldn't be a problem...

Yes but you can see its a holstered infernus pistol.

But hey, if you want to get extreme RAW, you dont have to use WYSIWYG for your non character models. So man go save some cash, and buy the cheapest models gw sells and model them as what ever. Completely RAW. [/sarcasm]

Edit: If you clear it with a TO before hand, (as in not the day of the tournement) and they approve your good to go. I got the same set up with my company commander.

Outside of tournaments with wysiwyg rules I really dont mind - the more difficult it is for me to remember what is what, the more silly questions I'm likely to keep on asking, however

UCs are characters as well, so normally you would expect those to be modelled correctly as well.

Thanks for apologies guys - on a rules forum I'm naturally a fairy RAW heavy guy - because otherwise you dont come to a solution on a question However IRL - well I *hope* i'm a good opponent, I do my absolute best to be!

I'm saying that if you have one model with a holster, and a thunderhammer, And its clearly visible hostler too, then it is WYSISYG as a X pistol. I have a Company Command that has a plasma pistol, but its holstered. only guy with this set up. No TO has said boo.

I got custom meltas too, where they are ig flamers that i've converted to a melta gun. It is clearly a meltagun, but from what i've read these are not WYSIWYG, because they are not GW made meltas. Even though there isnt a rule on conversions. Except it has to be a gw product to start with. Just an observation from this thread.

This discussion seems to have gone as far as it is going to. As with any WYSIWYG issue, ultimately the key is to make your army as easy to understand as you can, and discuss any tricky bits with your opponent.

Moving on.