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Fair point sJGrand but I just wanted to point out

40 points for a T5 3+ 1 W model isn't good to begin with.

Kind of invalidates every Term like unit in the game doesn't it?

And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.


But I guess if anyone just absolutely hates them don't bring them, but I really think your dismissing a unit with all kinds of potential if fit within the right army. Foot Slogging Phalanxs in particular can definitely take advantage of a unit like this.

I'd like to try them out to be sure, but the different weapon load outs have vastly different uses.

The S6 particle casters have some value for deep striking behind enemy vehicle shennanigans, but obviously this option is less effective in combat particularly against MEQ.

Don't they gain an extra attack if they swap to the Particle Caster and Void Blade. But this would be more effective against low armoured targets like guard or orks. Hell a S6 pistol is nasty though.

The unit is fearless and t 5 it can contest units with ease.

radarbabyeater wrote: It's getting really old listening to people mathhammer crap out on paper and pretending that's how every game works.

I'm a proponent of Ogryns and Sisters of Battle. Lumping me into the internet-theory-only crowd is misinformed.

Praetorians are simply too expensive for what they do. They've got an above average strength gun and melee attack that will be ignoring all armor saves and feel no pains. They are clearly designed to kill things that usually sit on the upper tiers of toughness that are also not units made up of multiple wound models or vehicles.

The problem is there is almost no call for this in the current game.

Ask anyone how to kill Terminators. The answer will be "volume of fire". Necrons have that coming out of their ears. If it's a target that can be killed by focusing basic weapons fire on it, Necrons have an army of that walking/flying/teleporting around.

So their ideal targets are things like Tervigons, and...well, that's pretty much it. They don't have the durability to fight a serious assault critter, or enough attacks to fight a unit of anything.

All they really have going for them is speed. Lychguard would be better against any unit you're thinking Praetorians are good against. Flayed Ones potentially as well since they're only a third the cost and have 3 times as many wound if you're just trying to bully something. They're just slightly slower. Even so, this is only an advantage if we're ignoring that the rest of the army, since Monoliths, Veils, and transports will be providing other units with speed.

Show me a common scenario where Praetorians are the answer.


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ShadarLogoth wrote:
And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.

This math does not bear out. Also, remember they are not Everliving, when the unit dies, they are dead.

Theorius wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

Lucre wrote:
So weird. I have no idea why these things are as expensive as they are. I hope they do work out flushing dudes off objectives. I guess they don't mind striking after units in cover given that they were going to anyway...

Really?

I find them to be almost comparable to a howling banshee exarch with an executioner.
They give up 1 WS, 1 BS, 4 I (that one hurts), 1A, and the banshee's mask.
They gain 2 T, and RP.
They trade S4 AP 5 12" shooting for S5 AP2 6" shooting, and the fleet of foot special rule for the jump infantry designation.

They cost 2 points more per model than a sergeant who would be far more expensive if eldar could take entire squads of them (yes...full 10-man squads of howling banshee exarchs would be more expensive than a single exarch with an executioner is per model. There's an opportunity cost to be paid there).

I feel they're costed about right for a *shooty army*. The math supports their cost if you don't do something stupid with them.

Maybe the GW website is correct and they'll be faq'd to A2. Somehow, I doubt it. That would be a lot of power for cheap when you're talking about a range-bubble army like necrons.

you just compared them to howling banshee exarchs? and then listed like 11 billion things that are different and you think its a good comparison?

try...sanguinary guard...they are jump infantry and a unit like praetorians and cost the same.....

I can only draw comparisons to units i have codicies for, and i lack a ba codex unfortunately.

DarknessEternal wrote:

radarbabyeater wrote: It's getting really old listening to people mathhammer crap out on paper and pretending that's how every game works.

I'm a proponent of Ogryns and Sisters of Battle. Lumping me into the internet-theory-only crowd is misinformed.

Praetorians are simply too expensive for what they do. They've got an above average strength gun and melee attack that will be ignoring all armor saves and feel no pains. They are clearly designed to kill things that usually sit on the upper tiers of toughness that are also not units made up of multiple wound models or vehicles.

The problem is there is almost no call for this in the current game.

Ask anyone how to kill Terminators. The answer will be "volume of fire". Necrons have that coming out of their ears. If it's a target that can be killed by focusing basic weapons fire on it, Necrons have an army of that walking/flying/teleporting around.

So their ideal targets are things like Tervigons, and...well, that's pretty much it. They don't have the durability to fight a serious assault critter, or enough attacks to fight a unit of anything.

All they really have going for them is speed. Lychguard would be better against any unit you're thinking Praetorians are good against. Flayed Ones potentially as well since they're only a third the cost and have 3 times as many wound if you're just trying to bully something. They're just slightly slower. Even so, this is only an advantage if we're ignoring that the rest of the army, since Monoliths, Veils, and transports will be providing other units with speed.

Show me a common scenario where Praetorians are the answer.


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ShadarLogoth wrote:
And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.

This math does not bear out. Also, remember they are not Everliving, when the unit dies, they are dead.

Good post DE, I see what your saying now.

I see them not in terms of "I need them to kill unit X" but more "In this common situation, I need a tool that can do X."

In this case, I'm looking for a relatively fast unit that can quickly respond to an assault unit that is threatening my armies core. I agree in terms of brute punch Lychguard are my first choice, but without veil they aren't that mobile, and even with Veil they are sluggish (obviously because they can't assault the turn they use it).

In terms of manoeuvrability I think the only other viable option is Wraiths, and as I mentioned before its a bit of a toss up between the two for me. How many FA slots I need on other things will probably be the determining factor (although knowing myself I will probably just use the Praetorians just because that's the anti-conformist style I like to role with). I already have the Wraith models in spades though, so the decision is still a tough one.


On your last point, not sure how you figure that Math. RP=Invulnerable save in terms of survivability, and against non power armour T5 3+ will ALSO get the RP, T4 2+ will not, and 1/6 better chance to save is negated buy the 1/6 chance more likely to be wounded.

Against power weapons T5 RP is very similar to T4 5++, the T5 will me less wounds get through, however the 5++ saves you instantly.

Now naturally if you get wiped GG and all that (no eternal). But a good general won't throw these guys into a combat where such an outcome is likely. They are fast and precise, and I intend to use them as such.

In small games, stick a Destroyer Lord with them and team them up with a squad of Wraiths with whips. They are going to murder everything. Other than that, I can't really see a use for them. I've got a squad of 5 just in case someone thinks it's cool to run around with a solo Land Raider or DS a Trygon on my gun line. Entropic Strike works well in both situations, and you only need 1 unsaved wound to screw a large wound model over.

They'll murder in large games too. Just because your opponent will have more possible answers for that one unit doesn't mean you won't have more problems on the board to distract him.

Also, a point i think: lack of everliving is not a point against them. Only ICs get everliving.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Now naturally if you get wiped GG and all that (no eternal).

That's why the two statlines are not the same. Praetorians are going to be in small numbers because of their exorbitant cost. It will not be too big of a stretch to go from 5 to 0 in one phase.

Kind of invalidates every Term like unit in the game doesn't it?

And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.


But I guess if anyone just absolutely hates them don't bring them, but I really think your dismissing a unit with all kinds of potential if fit within the right army. Foot Slogging Phalanxs in particular can definitely take advantage of a unit like this.

T5 and 3+ is fine except for the complete lack of an invulnerable save. Even then, termies still would have an advantage at 2+ because of the ability to shake off ap3.

I don't absolutely hate them, I just don't think they do anything particularly well enough to justify their cost. They aren't hard hitting, they aren't survivable. They are a mediocre predominantly shooting unit with miniscule CC ability at 40 points a pop. They are anti MEQ and really nothing else.

They aren't the worst unit ever, but they don't seem to have a place in a balanced take all comers list or tourney list. If you are arguing they could be fun, fine. Competitive, no. I think that might be the disconnect here.

DAaddict wrote:I think the power of HTH necrons is in the attached necron lord with scarabs or a cryptek with a lightning field.
This is going to nerf praetorians as they lose their jump infantry ability.

The one use I can see for them is someone who wants to go overboard with wraiths and monoliths. Run 2 or 3 monoliths and jump your opponent on one flank or the other with you jump troops. But the cost of it is going to make that a limited tactic. 730 for 3 monoliths and two minimum warrior squads then you still have to get your wraiths, praetorians, ctan and an HQ.

You can't put a lord or cryptek with them. Only Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks and Lychguard.

Considering tactical termies are shooting units the following isnt exactly fair but I feel it must be shown.

5 preat charge 5 tac termies. 5 shots and 10 cc attacks kill 40/27 and 20/9 termies, and in return the termies kill 1/3 with pw and 1 with fist. Thus if tac termies dont shoot and are not in cover they lose.

However, with just cover the numbers change to 20/18 and 20/9 to 2.8 ish. Much closer, and the termies still havent shot anything with their 24 inch guns.

As for rp, due to how rp works it is a terrible save. It is easy to take away and costs you attacks and combat modifiers. So no, t5 3+ with rp is nowhere near as good as 2+/5++.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Fair point sJGrand but I just wanted to point out

40 points for a T5 3+ 1 W model isn't good to begin with.

Kind of invalidates every Term like unit in the game doesn't it?

And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.

Comparing Lychguard or Praetorians to Terminators-- in my experience-- is unfortunate for the Necrons. While T5 3+ may be equivalent to T4 2+ against strength 3 attacks, it's inferior against almost everything else in the game, especially poisoned weapons (very prevalent with the recent popularity of Dark Eldar) and AP 3 weapons. Personally, I don't think Resurrection Protocols makes up for this, especially since you don't get them if your whole squad gets wiped out-- and squads like this will tend to draw fire if they pose any threat. And we haven't even factored in the 3++ storm shields that Assault Terminators get yet...

This is why you reserve them, deep strike in, weather a turn of shooting and use them as a clean up crew when there is less on the board to shoot at them.

DevianID wrote:
As for rp, due to how rp works it is a terrible save. It is easy to take away and costs you attacks and combat modifiers. So no, t5 3+ with rp is nowhere near as good as 2+/5++.

That's simply NOT true. And it's comparing T5 3+ AND RP with T4 2+ OR 5++. RP on a fearless model in CC is NOT a terrible save. Do the math, number crunch them against each other, the results WILL surprise you. Y'all act like any assault unit in the game can roll up on T5 3+ models and wipe them before they have a chance to strike back/stand back up and that's very unlikely.

T5 3+ is actually statistically identical to T4 2+5++ in a lot of situations, including against str 4 power weapons. It's worse against things w/ strength 7 or higher and AP 3 or lower attacks, but then you have to consider RP.

Edit: Okay I lied. It isn't the same in many situations. But it is against str 4 power weapons. Haha.

Nate668 wrote:T5 3+ is actually statistically identical to T4 2+5++ in a lot of situations, including against str 4 power weapons. It's worse against things w/ strength 7 or higher and AP 3 or lower attacks, but then you have to consider RP.

You mean T4 5++. They won't get their 2+ armor saves against the staff of covenant.

To correct myself, T4 2+5++ and T5 3+ without considering RP are identical for str3 regular attacks and str4 power attacks. T4 2+5++ is superior for higher strength regular or power attacks, poison, or attacks that reroll failed wounds. But that's only if you ignore RP.

Nate668 wrote:To correct myself, T4 2+5++ and T5 3+ without considering RP are identical for str3 regular attacks and str4 power attacks. T4 2+5++ is superior for higher strength regular or power attacks, poison, or attacks that reroll failed wounds. But that's only if you ignore RP.

Great post Nate, and that's the kicker. The Praetorians actually stack up pretty well against termies in terms of survivability, and we're not even taking into account that the Praetorians have twice the manoeuvrability (or 50% more on the charge) and a 100% superior shooting weapon versus assault terms (who have none ) and a weapon that compares favourably against the storm bolter (sure the old stormy can ping off armor at longer ranges, but once you get closer with the Rod it is going to hit home fo sho), and when you consider the Praetorians manoeuvrability, the Rod had a 18" threat range while the SB has a 30", not as massive of a disparity as 6" versus 24."

Of course Tac Terms have other weapon options that are not being considered, but the point is they are certainly in the same conversation. I really don't know where all the knee jerk Praes Hate came from, although if I had to guess people got all excited when they saw the website with 2A, and the recent backlash is a way to "Get Back" at GW for getting there hopes up, however after careful analysis I have to say if they had 2A base they would arguably be over powered.

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you reserve them, deep strike in, weather a turn of shooting and use them as a clean up crew when there is less on the board to shoot at them.

If they are a threat to what is nearby, they'll be dead before they get to move.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you reserve them, deep strike in, weather a turn of shooting and use them as a clean up crew when there is less on the board to shoot at them.

If they are a threat to what is nearby, they'll be dead before they get to move.

Maybe, sure. That's why you deepstrike them as close to as far away as possible as you can and hope for a hit. Or, make sure you take out anything that could be a threat to them on their deep strike turn earlier. I mean, it's just logic really. Sure, there's a chance they'll come in on turn 2 so you just DS them in somewhere safe. I mean, c'mon man...you're thinking pretty black and white with that statement.

T4 2+5++ is so much better than t5 3+ rp.

Guys, did you all forget that rp is not a real save? When you make an rp check, you still count as a wound for combat resolution, you lose your attacks, and if either the unit flees or all drop you don't get rp in the first place.

With termie saves, you still get to attack and dont count the saved wound for combat rez. That is massive!

Also nate, what unit has these s4 power weapons that you say make crons and termies equal?

Lightning claw terminators, for one.

Secondly, the praets are fearless so while combat resolution would still suck you'd at least "always" get your RP roll until the unit is the wiped.

Third, the terminators that get killed by the St5 AP2 weapon won't be there for the ensuing assault anyway so that is 5-10 potential dead termies even before assault happens.

Lclaw termies wound different than s4 powerweapons. Versus t4, 3/4 wound and 2/3 dont save, so 1/2 hits kill. Versus t5 5/9th wound, which is more than half. But who runs lclaw termies over thss termies?

As for shooting, it takes 3 shots to kill a termie in the open. So perhaps a 10 man squad kills 3, not 5 to 10

DevianID wrote:Lclaw termies wound different than s4 powerweapons. Versus t4, 3/4 wound and 2/3 dont save, so 1/2 hits kill. Versus t5 5/9th wound, which is more than half. But who runs lclaw termies over thss termies?

As for shooting, it takes 3 shots to kill a termie in the open. So perhaps a 10 man squad kills 3, not 5 to 10

He asked for a str 4 power weapon wielding termie so I gave him one. And don't factor in two lightning claws, if you are, that skews the results too much in one direction (yes I know it's an option and yes I know it is what people WOULD take, but to keep things in line with one another and within the same points cost its best to factor against termies with no upgrades which I believe are ~40 ppm).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you reserve them, deep strike in, weather a turn of shooting and use them as a clean up crew when there is less on the board to shoot at them.

If they are a threat to what is nearby, they'll be dead before they get to move.

You could literally say that about everything in the game.

I never said anything about termies and praetorians being equal. I was just giving the situations in which T4 2+5++ and T5 3+ are statistically the same. And S4 power attacks include incubi and any space marine with a regular power weapon. Before you start arguing with me about how uncommon incubi and regular power weapons are in the current meta, please be aware that all I'm not trying to argue that praetorians are better. I'm just providing facts.

DevianID wrote:T4 2+5++ is so much better than t5 3+ rp.

Guys, did you all forget that rp is not a real save? When you make an rp check, you still count as a wound for combat resolution, you lose your attacks, and if either the unit flees or all drop you don't get rp in the first place.

With termie saves, you still get to attack and don't count the saved wound for combat rez. That is massive!

Very good point (and one I already mentioned )

But the counter point is the RP stacks with the armor save, unlike the Termies invulnerable save. So a 3+ AND a 5+ RP is very very close to a 2+ statistically. With a Res orb they are basically identical (although as you mentioned, Armor save rolls of "2" keep the termie ticking in that combat.)

Edit: I forgot to mention that with the T5 the statistics head in the Praets direction for all non power weapons that aren't poisoness. (or S7+ and S2-, not that such things are very prevalent).

But again, its RP with fearless. The only unit in the dex with this combo. This cannot be ignored.

Edit: Correction, the shards are RP with fearless as well right? Not that this invalidates anything

Also nate, what unit has these s4 power weapons that you say make crons and termies equal?

Incubi? I actually meant to number crunch some equal point valued Incubi units last night but forgot. I they should prove an interesting bench mark (as they are superior to most other Assault units initiative values).


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Nate668 wrote:I never said anything about termies and praetorians being equal. I was just giving the situations in which T4 2+5++ and T5 3+ are statistically the same. And S4 power attacks include incubi and any space marine with a regular power weapon. Before you start arguing with me about how uncommon incubi and regular power weapons are in the current meta, please be aware that all I'm not trying to argue that praetorians are better. I'm just providing facts.

Exactly.

I wouldn't say that either one is necessarily better then the other. Both units clearly have pros and cons (Termies a tad more survivable and better punch in CC, Praets more manoeuvrable, a better shooty weapon, and fearless) but I would say that both sound about right for 40pts, which is what we are really discussing here. Some people are acting like Praets should cost like 25pts or something ridiculous, and I'm telling you right now if they did I would take 30 of them and win every tournament in existence because that is just ridonculous. If anyone doesn't believe me I will gladly challenge any dex to a game with 25 pt Praets (or even 35pt Praets) .

If you include RP and are only concerned with survivability, T5 3+ RP is superior to T4 2+5++ for attacks that ignore armor at strength 6 or less, and equal at strength 7 or higher. For attacks that do not ignore armor, they are equal against S4 attacks. T4 2+5++ is superior against attacks that do not ignore armor at S5 or higher.