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Nate668 wrote:If you include RP and are only concerned with survivability, T5 3+ RP is superior to T4 2+5++ for attacks that ignore armor at strength 6 or less, and equal at strength 7 or higher. For attacks that do not ignore armor, they are equal against S4 attacks. T4 2+5++ is superior against attacks that do not ignore armor at S5 or higher.


Hmmmm, not sure if I'm figuring this wrong (non PW):

S5 versus T4 2+

(2/3)(1/6) = .111

S5 versus T5 3+ RP 5+

(1/2)(1/3)(2/3) = .111


S5 versus T5 3+ RP 4+ (Res Orb)

(1/2)(1/3)(1/2) = .083





Automatically Appended Next Post:
S6 non PW (real common I know, but just for sheets and geeegles):

S6 versus T4 2+

(5/6)(1/6) = .139

S6 versus T5 3+ RP 5+

(2/3)(1/3)(2/3) = .148

S6 versus T5 3+ RP 4+ (Res Orb)

(2/3)(1/3)(1/2) = .111

So they oh so common S6 non PW is slightly better against RP 5+ and clearly worse then RP 4+

And now for the much more common S3 non PW:

S3 versus T4 2+

(1/3)(1/6) = .056

S3 versus T5 3+ RP 5+

(1/6)(1/3)(2/3) = .037

S3 versus T5 3+ RP 4+ (Res Orb)

(1/6)(1/3)(1/2) = .027

With T5 3+ RP being a pretty clear winner with our without a Res Orb.

Should be noted (and obvious) that I'm rolling for successful casualties, so the lower the number the better for the surviving unit.

Also noteworthy, T5 pwns St1 GOGOAeonStaves!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/11 15:20:50


 
   
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Oops, I definitely did the calculations for non-power weapons wrong somehow. Thanks!
   
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Hey Shadar, your math is looking good.

Do you mind doing some common enemies?

Say, 10 Genestealers, Sanguinary Guard, LC Termies, Wyches with a Hekatrix and Agonizer, some other typical enemy.

I'm really tempted to give these guys a try now, with a D lord and Orb, at least for fun.

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CthuluIsSpy wrote: AP2 weapons <snip> that also count as power weapons.
Isn't that a little redundant?

 
   
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Breotan wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: AP2 weapons <snip> that also count as power weapons.
Isn't that a little redundant?
Not really. Consider a Plasma Pistol: AP2, not a power weapon.
   
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Sasori wrote:Hey Shadar, your math is looking good.

Do you mind doing some common enemies?

Say, 10 Genestealers, Sanguinary Guard, LC Termies, Wyches with a Hekatrix and Agonizer, some other typical enemy.

I'm really tempted to give these guys a try now, with a D lord and Orb, at least for fun.


Absolutely, the above were done at work just playing with a calculator though, the requested calculations I would need to be at home with all my dexes and my trusty Excel software . But I'll see what I can throw together tonight and try to post it this weekend.

Actually I know the Genies and DE well enough I should probably be able to do it by memory (plus the info on the GW website ), though with mutli-model combats its nice to have the spreadsheet to layout the different permutations.

But I should be able to fire out first round of combat taking into account each one charging simply enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyches

Assumptions: +1A Combat Drugs, Hydra-Gauntlets*2, Hekatrix+Agonizer Wyches Shoot and Charge! (Praetorians have pistol/blade combo)
I did this to optimise the units against each other ( if the wyches don't get one of the combat oriented drugs or the Praetorians have rods its detrimental to either in this scenario).

Splinter Pistols:

8(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)= .889

Wyches Normal CC:

28(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= 0.778

Wyches Hydra Gauntlets:

8(1/2)+4(1/2)=6(1/6)+(6-6(1/6))(1/6)=1.833(1/3)= 0.611

Hekatrix:

5(1/2)(1/2)= 1.25


Total Praetorian wounds 3.528

If 3 Praetorians die:

4(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= 0.834

3 models should live (1 from RP)

If 4 Praetorians die:

2(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= .408

2.33 models should live (1.33 from RP)

Summary: You DO NOT want the wyches to get the charge Also this assumes that the almost 1 model the wyches killed with their pistols didn't take them out of assault range.



New Assumptions: Same Wyches and Praetorians as above but Praetorians Shoot and Charge!

Pistol pewpew:

5(2/3)(5/6)= 2.778

Assuming 3 die:

Normal Wyche CC:

12(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= .333

Wyches Hydra Gauntlets:

6(1/2)+3(1/2)=4.5(1/6)+(4.5-4.5(1/6))(1/6)=1.375(1/3)= 0.458

Hekatrix:

4(1/2)(1/2)= 1

Total wounds= 1.791

2 Praetorians die:

9(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= 1.875

After RP you should have 3 to 4 Praetorians versus 5 maybe 6 Wyches, Agonizer and Hydras intact. Could go either way at that point (the Agonizer really keeps the wyches in it) but combat should favour the praetorians.

So resolution is largely tilted to who gets the charge.

Edit: Also it should be noted that there is a point disparity in favour of the Praetorians( 150 to 200) but if the Wyches had any prayer of actually charging the did it disembarking from a 70+ raider.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/11/11 18:46:40


 
   
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ShadarLogoth wrote:
Sasori wrote:Hey Shadar, your math is looking good.

Do you mind doing some common enemies?

Say, 10 Genestealers, Sanguinary Guard, LC Termies, Wyches with a Hekatrix and Agonizer, some other typical enemy.

I'm really tempted to give these guys a try now, with a D lord and Orb, at least for fun.


Absolutely, the above were done at work just playing with a calculator though, the requested calculations I would need to be at home with all my dexes and my trusty Excel software . But I'll see what I can throw together tonight and try to post it this weekend.

Actually I know the Genies and DE well enough I should probably be able to do it by memory (plus the info on the GW website ), though with mutli-model combats its nice to have the spreadsheet to layout the different permutations.

But I should be able to fire out first round of combat taking into account each one charging simply enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyches

Assumptions: +1A Combat Drugs, Hydra-Gauntlets*2, Hekatrix+Agonizer Wyches Shoot and Charge! (Praetorians have pistol/blade combo)
I did this to optimise the units against each other ( if the wyches don't get one of the combat oriented drugs or the Praetorians have rods its detrimental to either in this scenario).

Splinter Pistols:

8(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)= .889

Wyches Normal CC:

28(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= 0.778

Wyches Hydra Gauntlets:

8(1/2)+4(1/2)=6(1/6)+(6-6(1/6))(1/6)=1.833(1/3)= 0.611

Hekatrix:

5(1/2)(1/2)= 1.25


Total Praetorian wounds 3.528

If 3 Praetorians die:

4(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= 0.834

3 models should live (1 from RP)

If 4 Praetorians die:

2(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= .408

2.33 models should live (1.33 from RP)

Summary: You DO NOT want the wyches to get the charge Also this assumes that the almost 1 model the wyches killed with their pistols didn't take them out of assault range.



New Assumptions: Same Wyches and Praetorians as above but Praetorians Shoot and Charge!

Pistol pewpew:

5(2/3)(5/6)= 2.778

Assuming 3 die:

Normal Wyche CC:

12(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= .333

Wyches Hydra Gauntlets:

6(1/2)+3(1/2)=4.5(1/6)+(4.5-4.5(1/6))(1/6)=1.375(1/3)= 0.458

Hekatrix:

4(1/2)(1/2)= 1

Total wounds= 1.791

2 Praetorians die:

9(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= 1.875

After RP you should have 3 to 4 Praetorians versus 5 maybe 6 Wyches, Agonizer and Hydras intact. Could go either way at that point (the Agonizer really keeps the wyches in it) but combat should favour the praetorians.

So resolution is largely tilted to who gets the charge.

Edit: Also it should be noted that there is a point disparity in favour of the Praetorians( 150 to 200) but if the Wyches had any prayer of actually charging the did it disembarking from a 70+ raider.



I understand the math but how many wyches? we talking equal points? or a typical size wych cult an enemy would take? I know almost every GOOD wych unit ive faced had a heamaclous in it giving them FNP, just like if I took praetorians Id think strongly about taking a destroyer with rez orb.

then again I would never take praetorians....

If math is going to be involved in validating a unit we need to set some control units i would suggest....maybe 3 typical apex assault units.

examples - a typical blood angel assault uint (elite so sanguinary guard or vanguards), a wych cult with/without haemoculous? and...a genestealer unit to see how rending comes into play? oh and we damn sure need a terminator assault unit, who has the best one? space wolves with counter attack?

just my two cents.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/11 19:27:30


   
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FNP won't matter against praets with rod of covenant.

And to a much lesser extent, the voidblade because of rending (though that is unreliable).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/11 19:53:16


 
   
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Sasori wrote:The only type of Termies I ever see are Paladins and TH/SS anyway, so that shot isn't going to do much good against them.

I could see them keeping up with scarabs, and assaulting the innards of transports, after they break them open. It's just at their points cost, they really need more to them. It's a shame, because they have Awesome Models, and Awesome Fluff.

Indeed, awesome models and fluff, but awful game-wise. Poor GW.

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I understand the math but how many wyches? we talking equal points? or a typical size wych cult an enemy would take? I know almost every GOOD wych unit ive faced had a heamaclous in it giving them FNP, just like if I took praetorians Id think strongly about taking a destroyer with rez orb.

then again I would never take praetorians....

If math is going to be involved in validating a unit we need to set some control units i would suggest....maybe 3 typical apex assault units.

examples - a typical blood angel assault uint (elite so sanguinary guard or vanguards), a wych cult with/without haemoculous? and...a genestealer unit to see how rending comes into play? oh and we damn sure need a terminator assault unit, who has the best one? space wolves with counter attack?

just my two cents.


Sorry I thought it was pretty clear it was 10 wyches, and as I stated at the bottom the Praets are 50 points more but the Wyches are almost certainly going to be riding in a 70 pint transport that the Praets don't need for mobility.

Good points otherwise. As far as Genies go I protracted the assault against 10. If the Genies get the assault the Praets are basically dead.

However if the Praets assault it looks something like this (using partial models for simple math):

End of first assault phase 5.076 Genies to 3.574 Praets

End of second assault phase 4.041 Genies to 2.571 Praets

End of third assault phase 3.354 Genies to 1.773 Praets

So it will likely not be until your opponents turn, assault phase 4, before he finishes them off. And Genies are a particularly nasty unit for the Praets.

One thing the math has clearly shown me is you really need the assault (charge) with the Praets to maximise their effectiveness, however with their 18"range that is something you should get more often then not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wuestenfux wrote:
Sasori wrote:The only type of Termies I ever see are Paladins and TH/SS anyway, so that shot isn't going to do much good against them.

I could see them keeping up with scarabs, and assaulting the innards of transports, after they break them open. It's just at their points cost, they really need more to them. It's a shame, because they have Awesome Models, and Awesome Fluff.

Indeed, awesome models and fluff, but awful game-wise. Poor GW.


Nice take. Way to completely skip 3 pages of analysis. Riveting

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/11 20:55:27


 
   
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I would if anyone does field Praetorains, they are likely going to use the Rods.

I'm surprised the assault swang so much In the Genetealers favor. I figured without the poison rerolls, they wouldn't be near as deadly.

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Sasori wrote:I would if anyone does field Praetorains, they are likely going to use the Rods.

I'm surprised the assault swang so much In the Genetealers favor. I figured without the poison rerolls, they wouldn't be near as deadly.

After all, Genestealers are one of the best cc units in the game. Hands down. Necrons don't have a unit that comes even close.

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wuestenfux wrote:
Sasori wrote:I would if anyone does field Praetorains, they are likely going to use the Rods.

I'm surprised the assault swang so much In the Genetealers favor. I figured without the poison rerolls, they wouldn't be near as deadly.

After all, Genestealers are one of the best cc units in the game. Hands down. Necrons don't have a unit that comes even close.


Wraiths would obliterate Genestealers.

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Sasori wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Sasori wrote:I would if anyone does field Praetorains, they are likely going to use the Rods.

I'm surprised the assault swang so much In the Genetealers favor. I figured without the poison rerolls, they wouldn't be near as deadly.

After all, Genestealers are one of the best cc units in the game. Hands down. Necrons don't have a unit that comes even close.


Wraiths would obliterate Genestealers.


This. Also Lychguard w/shields would be serviceable as well (or a strong Court).

And I used Sword/Pistol on the Genies after doing so on the wyches (I had stacked the deck a bit in the wyches favour so I did that to counter it).

This should be obvious but, Sword/Pistol is stronger against more "basic assault troops" where rod is stronger against "elite assault troops."

After piling through a bit I think you were on the right track, if your going take them at all you gotta go deep. 10 strong with a DLord/res orb is the way to roll (and honestly I'm kinda leaning towards warscythe on lord/ pistol VB's on Prates as the way to role) heheh see what I did there?

5 just doesn't bring enough heat at one time to the right location (maybe in smaller games).

Although the Warscythe/VB-Pistol combo would be a more expensive then the scarab solution, it would have the added bonus of resiliency and the ability to kill anything that pops out of the can it opens.

Of course it largely depends on the envisioned role. In the aforementioned army I ahve plenty of elite troop killers and was looking for a way to shore up my can opening prowess. Ideally I would spread them out 20" wide and slam tank walls with multi assaults (two Preatorians and a DLord with Warscythe will melt any tank the touch).

But just thoughts so far. I need to pull together some of the other jump assault units as they would illicit a much better apples to apples comparison, particularly I need to compare them side by side with the wraiths. Should be interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/11 21:36:33


 
   
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Hmm...Interesting math. The problem with wyches is if you get there then you probably have 2 tokens giving FC. That and if you have a haemy you don't have 2 wych weapons. Razorflails also do better math wise (reroll hit and wound).

As far as CC termies wolves would be good with counter attack although I would rather see BT with PE and FC or counter but most have FC (5LC 2TH/SS).

I still am not so sure I would go the pistol route as the rod is a PW and much better in CC.

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I'm pretty sure Wraiths are going to win out everytime, they appear to be the best combat unit we have in the Dex.

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Akroma06 wrote:Hmm...Interesting math. The problem with wyches is if you get there then you probably have 2 tokens giving FC. That and if you have a haemy you don't have 2 wych weapons. Razorflails also do better math wise (reroll hit and wound).

As far as CC termies wolves would be good with counter attack although I would rather see BT with PE and FC or counter but most have FC (5LC 2TH/SS).

I still am not so sure I would go the pistol route as the rod is a PW and much better in CC.


Actually I did the math with Razorflails, then Derped the commentary section (if you look closely you'll see the rerolls in the math) My bad, its been too long since I played my DE.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasori wrote:I'm pretty sure Wraiths are going to win out everytime, they appear to be the best combat unit we have in the Dex.


I have a feeling your right. The Praets shooting will shore them up some what, but I think they have an internal premiums being charged for jump infantry in the elite slot. Also they synergize with DLords and Wraiths don't. I might have to do 10 Praets+DLord VS 600pts of Wraiths Just to be "fair" heheh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some more thoughts:

The Cron FA slot is really really good. Sacrabs and Wraiths prowess is well none, and of course destoryers are none to shabby.

Last night I was looking Tomb Blades+Stealth. 150 point unit that can turbo boost for a 2+ cover and quickly deployed mobile cover wall for another fast unit.

I was playing with the idea of the DLord+Praets with a wall of turbo boosted Tomb Blades in front of them. Pretty nasty.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/11 21:52:56


 
   
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How come wraiths don't synergize well with D Lords? I thought that would make a good combo.

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CthuluIsSpy wrote:How come wraiths don't synergize well with D Lords? I thought that would make a good combo.


Yes. Why not a Destroyer Lord with Res Orb and Mindshackle Scarabs? Sure it's a point sink but, if I were to run praetorians it would be with that.


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because matt ward in his infinite wisdom deemed wraiths unworthy of having RP thus there is no point in taking an orb.... However I find that a full squad of wraiths is very survivable I lasted through three turns of tau shooting with mine.
   
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tedbpb wrote:because matt ward in his infinite wisdom deemed wraiths unworthy of having RP thus there is no point in taking an orb.... However I find that a full squad of wraiths is very survivable I lasted through three turns of tau shooting with mine.


Sorry I got it wrong, I meant a destroyer lord with mindshackle and res orb with praetorians, I didn't read the quote carefully enough

it sucks how destroyer lords cannot take courts with lords and cryteks, so you can't get the "two courts" going and have two "sergeants" per squad...

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severedblue wrote:
tedbpb wrote:because matt ward in his infinite wisdom deemed wraiths unworthy of having RP thus there is no point in taking an orb.... However I find that a full squad of wraiths is very survivable I lasted through three turns of tau shooting with mine.


Sorry I got it wrong, I meant a destroyer lord with mindshackle and res orb with praetorians, I didn't read the quote carefully enough

it sucks how destroyer lords cannot take courts with lords and cryteks, so you can't get the "two courts" going and have two "sergeants" per squad...


I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a second court. The whole "two leaders per squad" thing has a pretty good chance of being overturned in an FAQ.
   
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Nate668 wrote:
severedblue wrote:
tedbpb wrote:because matt ward in his infinite wisdom deemed wraiths unworthy of having RP thus there is no point in taking an orb.... However I find that a full squad of wraiths is very survivable I lasted through three turns of tau shooting with mine.


Sorry I got it wrong, I meant a destroyer lord with mindshackle and res orb with praetorians, I didn't read the quote carefully enough

it sucks how destroyer lords cannot take courts with lords and cryteks, so you can't get the "two courts" going and have two "sergeants" per squad...


I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a second court. The whole "two leaders per squad" thing has a pretty good chance of being overturned in an FAQ.


Agreed.
   
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Nate668 wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a second court. The whole "two leaders per squad" thing has a pretty good chance of being overturned in an FAQ.


It would be the first time that they overturned something that would result in them selling less models. If they make that change that will hit them hard financially, if they let you use 2 per squad it is basically doubling the amount of money you pay per squad! Even if you do plan on making conversions you still have to buy GW models to do so.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/14 22:45:25


   
 
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