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I would say that GW worked towards a fluffy philosophy:

they want melee units that are tough, take a hit, then use reanimation protocols to get up again. It is the opposite of alpha strike (e.g. dark eldar), basically the plan for these melee units is to roll with the first hit, then clean up with the retaliation. This is within the larger meta of powerful shooting within a 24" bubble

I remember talking to a red shirt who visited the GW design dept in the UK. He told me that, it was clear to the designers that they want to create armies that are differentiated from each other.




So you took vanilla marines... too bad you can't have a storm raven. BUT you get a thunderfire cannon.

You are sisters, and it would be great to have valkyries... too bad, they are Imperial Guard only. Obviously there is a huge exception with all the different flavours of marine army, but I see why they have made the design decisions that they have made. It is more important to differentiate from a fluff perspective, rather than balancing everything from a min/max perspective.

If you want high initiative, great alpha-strike melee... don't play Necrons. They are the slow, implacable, inevitable phalanx army, and they were designed that way.

Lucre wrote:
To decrease the cost of warriors and immortals and then throw in a whole host of clunky overcosted melee units sends a lot of mixed messages to me.

I just don't know about the praetorians. I wanna like them. I like the Lych Guard and the C'Tans but they are both really expensive, so I find myself wondering if they really will see mucha ction. Unless, 6th makes the usefull, like the DeathMarks!

I only see them as being tank hunters that don't compete in the same slot as Scarabs. S6 pistols and then S5+entropic strike+rending (with 3 attacks on the charge) should mess up most vehicles. And they're Jump Infantry, T5, with a 3+ save, and RP and Fearless to go along with it means that it's still going to take alot to down the whole squad. A small squad of 5 should be easy to get cover until they get to assault a nice chunky vehicle. I don't see them (or any of the CC necron options) being anything akin to other armies elite CC units. I wouldn't throw any of them at a full "healthy" squad of anything short of GEQs.

Somebody must proxy them in a game and at least try them. I'll do it my next game, to atleast know what they can do.

They seem like a unit designed for 6ed, if the BoK rumors hold up (rod will give them +1 attack in cc for being an assault shooting weapon, jump pack gives them an evade ability, etc).

You are also paying to have the only unit in the codex with Reanimation Protocols and fearless. That is significant considering you lose your RP rolls on a failed morale check.

If I were to use them in this edition, it'd be in conjunction with Nemesor and Obryon. They are a unit that can use his deepstrike in enemy turn shenanigans, benefit greatly from his USR granting ability and can keep up with all the teleporting that list will have going on. Otherwise I'd wait till 6ed.

winterman wrote:They seem like a unit designed for 6ed, if the BoK rumors hold up (rod will give them +1 attack in cc for being an assault shooting weapon, jump pack gives them an evade ability, etc).

You are also paying to have the only unit in the codex with Reanimation Protocols and fearless. That is significant considering you lose your RP rolls on a failed morale check.

If I were to use them in this edition, it'd be in conjunction with Nemesor and Obryon. They are a unit that can use his deepstrike in enemy turn shenanigans, benefit greatly from his USR granting ability and can keep up with all the teleporting that list will have going on. Otherwise I'd wait till 6ed.

I'd combine them with nemesor and a stalker.

TW their shooting + furious charge (JI...they WILL get the charge). That's effectively BS5+ shooting with AP2 and S6 power weapons at I3. Accompany them with some wraiths to let them absolutely go before some enemy models and increase their chances of winning the combat.

I don't have my BGB in front of me (at work)...how does mixed initiative work with a sweeping advance? Do you add the lowest I? or the majority? ...it could make a huge difference...

Theorius wrote:i cant believe their is 23(24) posts on this! they suck.

the best think they are good for is pairing the box with the immortal/deathmarch box to make 10 awesome cryteks and even basic necron lords.

I'll never understand why people have to be so negative and dismissive like this. Intelligent well paid individuals designed this unit and other intelligent individuals are having a cordial discussion on the units merits. Did you ever stop to consider that if your opinion is "they suck" that maybe, just maybe, you haven't properly extracted all of the units potential perturbations.

Or perhaps some just have negativity issues and it's better that they express them on anonymous forums then running around punching kittens.

I'll never field them, but I think I can find a use for them models as Crpyteks with Ether Lances or Crypteks/Lords w/Staff of light.

They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

They're the thoughest Jump infantry out there IMHO, but their incredibly high point cost and the fact that they have bad sinergy with the rest of the army makes them an underwhelming choice...

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect. Some actual counter arguments to the points made for them would be a great addition to this discussion.

I think peoples greatest mistake in looking at them is ignoring the resilience of 5T 3+ RP 5+. To say they are terrible just because of I2 would be like saying TH/SS units are terrible because they all strike at I1. Sure they TH/SS have one more attack but they don't have a very affective S5 AP2 shot, and they don't have 5T. They also aren't jump infantry, in fact quite the opposite they are a unit that can never sweeping advance.

Compare them point for point against other elite assault units and see what stats/abilities go up and go down. They are probably one of the toughest jump infantry units in the game. They are very comparable to bling wing in that regard.

I don't have my BGB in front of me (at work)...how does mixed initiative work with a sweeping advance? Do you add the lowest I? or the majority? ...it could make a huge difference...

I am not sure where the mixed I comes from. Bonus I from FC doesn't count for sweep. Nor does the whip.

BGB pg 40 wrote:(in regards to Sweeping Advance) Always count the Initiative value from the model’s profile without any modifiers.

However in case you were wondering for other combats, mixed I is handled like mixed WS or T in other rules, eg

In a unit with mixed Initiative characteristics, count the majority value, or the highest if there is no majority.

They're the thoughest Jump infantry out there IMHO, but their incredibly high point cost and the fact that they have bad sinergy with the rest of the army makes them an underwhelming choice...

No tougher then Destoyers (other then fearless) for the exact same points and the destroyers synergize more with the codex's shooty bent.

What about the Necron Megalith?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:What about the Necron Megalith?

What does this have to do with anything?

Arandmoor wrote:

Lucre wrote:
So weird. I have no idea why these things are as expensive as they are. I hope they do work out flushing dudes off objectives. I guess they don't mind striking after units in cover given that they were going to anyway...

Really?

I find them to be almost comparable to a howling banshee exarch with an executioner.
They give up 1 WS, 1 BS, 4 I (that one hurts), 1A, and the banshee's mask.
They gain 2 T, and RP.
They trade S4 AP 5 12" shooting for S5 AP2 6" shooting, and the fleet of foot special rule for the jump infantry designation.

They cost 2 points more per model than a sergeant who would be far more expensive if eldar could take entire squads of them (yes...full 10-man squads of howling banshee exarchs would be more expensive than a single exarch with an executioner is per model. There's an opportunity cost to be paid there).

I feel they're costed about right for a *shooty army*. The math supports their cost if you don't do something stupid with them.

Maybe the GW website is correct and they'll be faq'd to A2. Somehow, I doubt it. That would be a lot of power for cheap when you're talking about a range-bubble army like necrons.

you just compared them to howling banshee exarchs? and then listed like 11 billion things that are different and you think its a good comparison?

try...sanguinary guard...they are jump infantry and a unit like praetorians and cost the same.....

they get a 12" assault 2, str 4, ap 4 gun
a two handed master crafted power weapon (str 5 and reroll)
2 attacks
init 4
tough 4
2+ armor save
they also get the blood angel special rules and they shall know no fear

they also have cool options in the death mask, power fist and inferno pistols

Not to mention they are likely going to have Feel No Pain in the army...

Sasori wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:What about the Necron Megalith?

What does this have to do with anything?

Is The Necron Megalith worth it?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Sasori wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:What about the Necron Megalith?

What does this have to do with anything?

Is The Necron Megalith worth it?

Perhaps this is going a little too far in the trolling department. This has already been mentioned too many times and it was already old before it began.

Ignore him. He is a troll.

try...sanguinary guard...they are jump infantry and a unit like praetorians and cost the same.....

they get a 12" assault 2, str 4, ap 4 gun
a two handed master crafted power weapon (str 5 and reroll)
2 attacks
init 4
tough 4
2+ armor save
they also get the blood angel special rules and they shall know no fear

they also have cool options in the death mask, power fist and inferno pistols

Not to mention they are likely going to have Feel No Pain in the army...

I agree that is the fairest comparison. So you get -2I -1A and -1Sv for +1T and RP. I'll leave the IP's PF's and FNP to the side because your going to have to spend points on those that could also be spent on a DLord to upgrade the Praetorians for example.

I would say the Praetorins shooting attack is a clear winner, with .44 wounds/round/model against MEQ and .29 wounds/round/model against TEQ. (Versus .132 and .112 against MEQ and TEQ respectively for the Bling Wing). Bling Wing has range but I don't think that will come into play often as both tend to shoot then assault, and therefore generally be in assault range. In close combat against each other the Praes will get there RP while the Sangs will get neither the 2+ nor the FNP if it happens to be in the area.

So no charge Sangs get .5wounds/model/round (with .33 actually staying dead) then Praes get .33wounds/model/round. I would say that's pretty darn equal. Sangs get the initiative of course but Praes have the better shooting weapon.

Really with units that close it comes down to the better general and who was able to get the other into assault range more efficiently.

In summary, I just don't get how someone can label them as terrible or useless. They are very much in the neighbourhood of other elite assault units, especially jump capable ones. Especially when you consider that as Necrons your going to pay a small premium for units that shore up your weaknesses, the BA codex has no shortage of strong assault units.

winterman wrote:If I were to use them in this edition, it'd be in conjunction with Nemesor and Obryon. They are a unit that can use his deepstrike in enemy turn shenanigans, benefit greatly from his USR granting ability and can keep up with all the teleporting that list will have going on. Otherwise I'd wait till 6ed.

This was my idea as well. While I've not gotten my codex yet, all the pre- and post-release leaks have me thinking that there is much untapped, ill-considered synergy in this codex - even more so than the Eldar codex which relies on it for any competitive build. I've been wary of using Praetorians in potential lists, but I'm not going to turn my nose up at them. They're definitely not deathstar material, but throw in Obryon, Nemesor, and some Wraiths and things are looking up for them.

^ What ShadarLogoth said.

Feel No Pain isn't going to save you from Rod of Covenant hits via shooting or assault. AP2 and Power Weapon hits, howdy.

I'll put it simply: They don't have whip coils, they're I2, and don't come with grenades base. Yes, they're T5... but with only 1 wound, and costing 200 pts per squad prior to upgrades... hells and no. You can get 5 wraiths + 2 whip coils for less, they have a guarenteed 18" threat range, ignore all terrain, and best of all, they make your opponents strike at I2! Yes, they don't have power weps, but 20 str 6 rending attacks is no joke...

Zid wrote:I'll put it simply: They don't have whip coils, they're I2, and don't come with grenades base. Yes, they're T5... but with only 1 wound, and costing 200 pts per squad prior to upgrades... hells and no. You can get 5 wraiths + 2 whip coils for less, they have a guarenteed 18" threat range, ignore all terrain, and best of all, they make your opponents strike at I2! Yes, they don't have power weps, but 20 str 6 rending attacks is no joke...

Wraiths are certainly good I will not dispute that, however Wraiths compete against completely different units in the FOS. If your chock full on Scarabs/Destroyers/Tomb Blades and need some fast counter assault, I would say Praetorians are your friend (Especially if your an honourable/worthy general apparently ).

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect.

None are valid at pointing out why spending points on Praetorians would ever be a better idea than spending points literally anywhere else in the codex. The do not do a single useful thing that is accomplished better elsewhere.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Zid wrote:I'll put it simply: They don't have whip coils, they're I2, and don't come with grenades base. Yes, they're T5... but with only 1 wound, and costing 200 pts per squad prior to upgrades... hells and no. You can get 5 wraiths + 2 whip coils for less, they have a guarenteed 18" threat range, ignore all terrain, and best of all, they make your opponents strike at I2! Yes, they don't have power weps, but 20 str 6 rending attacks is no joke...

Wraiths are certainly good I will not dispute that, however Wraiths compete against completely different units in the FOS. If your chock full on Scarabs/Destroyers/Tomb Blades and need some fast counter assault, I would say Praetorians are your friend (Especially if your an honourable/worthy general apparently ).

I would agree.... however, at 1850 (or 2k) you most likely won't be using Elites other than a Stalker or two (best elite IMO, even if hes overcosted)

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect.

None are valid at pointing out why spending points on Praetorians would ever be a better idea than spending points literally anywhere else in the codex. The do not do a single useful thing that is accomplished better elsewhere.

Because they're Jump Infantry, have RP, are Fearless, are T5 with a 3+ save, have S5 AP2 ranged weapons that also double as Power Weapons (thus ignoring every FNP argument there is). With proper support, they're damn scary. It's getting really old listening to people mathhammer crap out on paper and pretending that's how every game works.

I'll never understand why people have to be so negative and dismissive like this. Intelligent well paid individuals designed this unit and other intelligent individuals are having a cordial discussion on the units merits. Did you ever stop to consider that if your opinion is "they suck" that maybe, just maybe, you haven't properly extracted all of the units potential perturbations.

Or perhaps some just have negativity issues and it's better that they express them on anonymous forums then running around punching kittens.

I'd agree that sometimes there are units that get dismissed by the general groupthink mentality of the internet, but there are some things so bad even the greenish noob can detect as crap. Praetorians are one of these.

Before seeing the real codex and that they do in fact have only 1 attack, I thought that they may possess more merit as a more mobile counter-assault unit. However, they really are complete trash. Even with 2 attacks, they would have issues. 40 points for a T5 3+ 1 W model isn't good to begin with. Their weapon is only 6" and in reality is a bit of a noob trap. 5 of these shooting MEQ out of cover still only kill around 3.6 models. A smart opponent is going to do their best to take these models out of coherency. In assault against MEQ with the charge, providing all 5 are in fact still alive (unlikely), they kill 3. 6 MEQ isn't bad, but again, this is in an ideal situation. They won't get that.

There are better values in the codex that do the same thing but much, much better (Wraiths).

radarbabyeater wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect.

None are valid at pointing out why spending points on Praetorians would ever be a better idea than spending points literally anywhere else in the codex. The do not do a single useful thing that is accomplished better elsewhere.

Because they're Jump Infantry, have RP, are Fearless, are T5 with a 3+ save, have S5 AP2 ranged weapons that also double as Power Weapons (thus ignoring every FNP argument there is). With proper support, they're damn scary. It's getting really old listening to people mathhammer crap out on paper and pretending that's how every game works.

They are only bad because of the points. What they do is fine, what they cost to do it for is a bit much. Math hammer aside.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can only see them worth it if you take the rending sword. Then you have a unit that can pop tanks. But, honestly I'd take the wraiths if I wanted that.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect.

None are valid at pointing out why spending points on Praetorians would ever be a better idea than spending points literally anywhere else in the codex. The do not do a single useful thing that is accomplished better elsewhere.

ORLY?

I need a fast anti assault unit and all my FA's are taken up with Scarabs and HD's for anti-tank? Where pray tell do you suggest me look for my fast anti-assault unit?

Furthermore, depending on how used, and what used against, I don't necessarily agree that Wraiths>Praetorians straight up.

I really like both units though, so it's a bit of a toss up for me, but IMHO the Rod of Covenant is a really good weapon for the purposes I would need either unit.

Did anyone factor in that the particle gun is str 6?

Meaning that they can immobilize vehicles themselves before hiting the transport with the entropic attacks.