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pretre wrote:

Azure wrote:

pretre wrote:

Azure wrote:C'tan shard

I was with you until about here.

I'm sorry to hear that you missed out on my reasoning then. I hope you can come back and read at some point, I think it to be rather valid

I think you dropped something. Looks kind of like a sense of humor. You might need that later.

I am not apt to use humor unless it is blatently obvious. The internet's lack of facial expression and tone is to hard to try and guage so I always am serious unless, as previously mentioned, it is horrendously obvious that I am not

Armless Failure wrote:

Seaward wrote:Lysander would probably be my generalist call, too.

If it were limited to MEQ non-vehicles, Sanguinor, hands down.

Meph eats Sanguinor, as does Failbaddon, Calgar, Kharn, Typhus, and Lysander.

Only in some weird world where math no longer works correctly.

When he's not hitting himself in the face, Abaddon is pretty badass. Lelith Hesperax is hard to overlook with I9.

Seaward wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:

Seaward wrote:Lysander would probably be my generalist call, too.

If it were limited to MEQ non-vehicles, Sanguinor, hands down.

Meph eats Sanguinor, as does Failbaddon, Calgar, Kharn, Typhus, and Lysander.

Only in some weird world where math no longer works correctly.

How is sanguinor winning against any of them. He's good, especially for the points, but he hasn't the statline of the weakest of them. The only great thing is the 3++, beyond that what's his edge?

You are capable of making your own Necron Overlord pretty damn powerful.

strength 7 warscythe
gets back up on 4+ res orb
2+ save
3+ invul
roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

I can see a lord like that being hard to take down and even if you do he can get back up.

I would say that stands up to pretty much anything

Ghazzy using WAAAGH and getting the charge has at least a fighting chance against any character in the game.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:You are capable of making your own Necron Overlord pretty damn powerful.

strength 7 warscythe
gets back up on 4+ res orb
2+ save
3+ invul
roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

I can see a lord like that being hard to take down and even if you do he can get back up.

I would say that stands up to pretty much anything

I was about to say "BWAAAAH, CHEESE" remembering the previous necron codex under 4e rules (hated monoliths), but I guess, given codex creep, that's actually probably perfectly reasonable. What is the point cost on this guy? I realize it's not a point of contention on this thread, but I'm kinda curious.

Armless Failure wrote:
How is sanguinor winning against any of them. He's good, especially for the points, but he hasn't the statline of the weakest of them. The only great thing is the 3++, beyond that what's his edge?

3++, Eternal Warrior, lots of attacks. Initiative and Strength don't really matter that much in the "I-have-high-inv.-save-&-EW"-club. Only 3 wounds is a downer though.

Zweischneid wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:
How is sanguinor winning against any of them. He's good, especially for the points, but he hasn't the statline of the weakest of them. The only great thing is the 3++, beyond that what's his edge?

3++, Eternal Warrior, lots of attacks. Initiative and Strength don't really matter that much in the "I-have-high-inv.-save-&-EW"-club. Only 3 wounds is a downer though.

Everyone seems to be forgetting his rerolls to hit and wound against a chosen HQ. That's what allows him to beat Mephy more than half the time, from a mathhammer perspective.

Seaward wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:
How is sanguinor winning against any of them. He's good, especially for the points, but he hasn't the statline of the weakest of them. The only great thing is the 3++, beyond that what's his edge?

3++, Eternal Warrior, lots of attacks. Initiative and Strength don't really matter that much in the "I-have-high-inv.-save-&-EW"-club. Only 3 wounds is a downer though.

Everyone seems to be forgetting his rerolls to hit and wound against a chosen HQ. That's what allows him to beat Mephy more than half the time, from a mathhammer perspective.

Meph gets rerolls too, and can do it against things that are not HQ, and wounds him on a 2+ with reroll, even if he can't ID him. Sangy needs a 5+ with reroll to wound, and Sangy hits on a 4+ with reroll, meph on 3+ with reroll assuming unleash rage goes off. Meph may not have a save, but he is getting hit less, getting wounded less, is hitting more, is wounding more, can actually break vehicles, can stop psychic powers, and has a ranged weapon. Sanguinor vs. Mephiston is a close match, but Sangy lacks all the things that Meph brings to the other fights.

If it just was hq's I'd like old zogwart due to squigging other independent characters.

Other than that I'd say Ghaz is a good choice. But Eldrad might be able to do some damage too

Seaward wrote:Everyone seems to be forgetting his rerolls to hit and wound against a chosen HQ. That's what allows him to beat Mephy more than half the time, from a mathhammer perspective.

Mephiston isn't a serious contender for the top-spot anyhow as he lacks and inv. save. Not to mention that he'll die to ID by Draigo, Asurmen, etc.. if they have ID-weapons. As said, I think Sanguinor certainly ranks above Mephy by and large. But Draigo or Calgar just curb-stomp him. Ghaz doesn't even break a sweat. Most of the top-guys like Calgar also have rerolls too.

Zweischneid wrote:

Seaward wrote:Everyone seems to be forgetting his rerolls to hit and wound against a chosen HQ. That's what allows him to beat Mephy more than half the time, from a mathhammer perspective.

Mephiston isn't a serious contender for the top-spot anyhow as he lacks and inv. save. Not to mention that he'll die to ID by Draigo, Asurmen, etc.. if they have ID-weapons. As said, I think Sanguinor certainly ranks above Mephy by and large. But Draigo or Calgar just curb-stomp him. Ghaz doesn't even break a sweat. Most of the top-guys like Calgar also have rerolls too.

Mathhammer out Sanguinor vs. Draigo. I think you'll be surprised.

Seaward wrote:
Mathhammer out Sanguinor vs. Draigo. I think you'll be surprised.

Again.. I have no doubt in the nastyness that can be the Sanguinor. If he had 4 Wounds, I think he'd rock most of them.

Mathhammer out Mephiston vs. Draigo or Calgar and see if Mephy's still in the running. It's him that I fail to see at the very top in a 1 vs. 1 scenario.

Oh, and for Draigo, I'd like to point you to a fight that I did Mathhammer for the fun of it.

Zweischneid wrote:

Seaward wrote:
Mathhammer out Sanguinor vs. Draigo. I think you'll be surprised.

Again.. I have no doubt in the nastyness that can be the Sanguinor. If he had 4 Wounds, I think he'd rock most of them.

Mathhammer out Mephiston vs. Draigo or Calgar and see if Mephy's still in the running. It's him that I fail to see at the very top in a 1 vs. 1 scenario.

Oh, and for Draigo, I'd like to point you to a fight that I did Mathhammer for the fun of it.

Nah, I don't consider Mephy a top 1v1 contender anyway...which is why I was pointing out to that other guy that Sanguinor will, statistically, beat him most of the time.

I haven't done the Calgar vs. Sanguinor math, but I still think Sanguinor will likely win it, just due to those rerolls to hit and wound.

These threads always overlook the clear winner:

Baharroth

You can't ever shoot at him, you can't ever assault him. And, his constant S4 AP5 bombs will eventually kill anything other than a Wraithlord or a vehicle with AV over 10.

And, against vehicles, he has haywire grenades and always hits on a 4+ or better. So, he's at least got a chance against them.

And when the game ends on turn 5 - 7 and he's still off the board because he's hiding, he counts as dead right?

Or it is at least a tie since he's drops down turn 5 and hides in a corner hoping not to get assaulted/shot and that 4 turns of S4AP5 actually hurt any of these badasses.

though not necessarily a win i do like the idea of lukas the tricksetr in one on one fights, pelt of the dopegangrel, wolf claw and a pretty good stat line he's not bad, plus he's got that stasis bomb heart for a good ol' last laugh if things go wrong. too bad you have to take blood claws to use him. He's not the best model out there but he is indeed a funny one!

i said it earlyer, but all the inv saves getting thrown out there, a Vindicar Assassin can remove an INV save for the rest of the game on a 4+, his BS is 8, one round he uses wounds on a 2+, the round is AP1 for all shots, and he can use 4D6 vs vehicles...if even Drago gets hit and drops his INV save hes takin a wound every turn till hes dead. the Assassins range is 36 so that's at a min 3 turns of shots if you have los.

gibby_934 wrote:though not necessarily a win i do like the idea of lukas the tricksetr in one on one fights, pelt of the dopegangrel, wolf claw and a pretty good stat line he's not bad, plus he's got that stasis bomb heart for a good ol' last laugh if things go wrong. too bad you have to take blood claws to use him. He's not the best model out there but he is indeed a funny one!

Well, as you said, 1 vs. 1 you cannot take him and if you're allowed more than one (and presumably your opponent), you can sacrifice a pawn. That said.. just shoot him, don't slash him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:i said it earlyer, but all the inv saves getting thrown out there, a Vindicar Assassin can remove an INV save for the rest of the game on a 4+, his BS is 8, one round he uses wounds on a 2+, the round is AP1 for all shots, and he can use 4D6 vs vehicles...if even Drago gets hit and drops his INV save hes takin a wound every turn till hes dead. the Assassins range is 36 so that's at a min 3 turns of shots if you have los.

Draigo would probably deepstrike though if you know what you face. Worse, deepstrike somebody like Dante, no scatter, melta-to-the-face, your turn now. Want to take my inv.-save? You're welcome to it.

He also can only take "equipment-based" Inv. save. Guys like Ghaz or Ragnar are save from him. Calgar or Kantor have a not insignificant chance of taking him with an orbital bomb.

true its for Equip, but the only INV save i know of other then armor or iron halo is Daemons.

also he can use the rounds with a pistol so he can move and shot as well.

with that said. he does ruin a lot of peoples day with that Shield-Breaker round.

DK wrote:true its for Equip, but the only INV save i know of other then armor or iron halo is Daemons.

Ragnar is 4++ because of his "dodge", as is Lelith. Ghaz has his 2++ because his is "prophet of the WAAGH!". Sanguinor has 3++ because of "Undying Will". I am sure there are more. Mephiston, not having an inv. in the first place, would also have a field day with a Vindicare.

Over all there is no one unit that will take a battlefield by storm in the codexes but other models like titans will do. I know this from xp.

flyingsquirrels wrote:I would of agreed with abaddon until last weekend.me and my friend decided to have a 1500point battle where he used every single chaos character in the codex(a lot of proxies).I,decided to do a proxy of my own and used the swarm lord,until playing this game i had never used him before and he did pretty awesome.in the battle he managed to assist the genestealers in killing a chaos hero(cant remember which),he then went on to kill kharn, Lucius and abbadon without taking any wounds!

Indeed the Swarm Lord is probably one of the better counters to him, if anything. But I'm unsure whether it's better at fighting most other models overall. As for the battle, it sounds like a lot of luck (and obviously assistance) went into that rampage. I wouldn't considered that a median of what would normally happen.

Would a Soul Grinder be competitive to any of this?

The old nightbringer.

Okay so I redid some my math. Meph's fight against Sangy is tipped in favor of Sangy, but not by more than 10%. If Meph had even a 6++ he would be the statistical favorite.

Having an invulnerable save is pretty much necessity to entry for non-vehicles. I don't know what a vehicle needs to compete, but it has to be really good, given that the bulk of the competitors have the ability to punch tanks into submission. I really don't see non-vehicle primary shooters being a good option, though I may be overlooking something nasty. That being said being able to shoot has uses as it might make take a wound in the first few turns.

Draigo lost to Papa Smurf 1-2 in a best of three dual I ran last night, but I haven't done the mathhammer. Orbital bombarment was either missed, saved or failed to wound in each match.

Will run Sangy vs. Meph tonight.

Setup I used: 4'6"X4'6" table, with 25% covered in terrain: 1 building, 2 difficult forests, several impassable rocks, placed by a thoroughly disinterested (and mildly annnoyed) third party. Deploy within 6" of the opposite corners of the table. Die roll winner choose either deploy corner or first turn, looser gets the other. Deepstrike was disallowed, but I am willing to overturn that rule, it just seemed like it wasted a bunch of time.

Any one have thoughts on the battle setup, keeping in mind that the table size is not negotiable for me at the moment..

My cat

GamzaTheChaos wrote:You are capable of making your own Necron Overlord pretty damn powerful.

strength 7 warscythe
gets back up on 4+ res orb
2+ save
3+ invul
roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

I can see a lord like that being hard to take down and even if you do he can get back up.

I would say that stands up to pretty much anything

This is exactly what I was thinking. An Overlord with all the goodies is one of the toughest things in the game 1v1, especially since half the time your model will hit himself in the face when fighting this guy.

~Edit~
Oh, even more fearsome if we're allowed to bring things like the Dais, as that opens up the CCB for the Overlord.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

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