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scipio.au wrote:


Well, the Genestealers have had a LOT of retconning in their days, and cult forces (both GS and Chaos) worked thematically in both a "they've found us - get the weapons!" and in a "we're taking over, our Coup starts now! - wake the sleepers!" sense. I understand that Humans are pretty well represented in the game as well. Which one of their forces should we keep?

Perhaps we could reduce the 6 marine codices down to perhaps 3? Use the other 3 for: Genestealer Cults (simple fluff rewrite to state they sometime 'slip the leash' of the hive mind due to their time away as an independent species), Chaos Cults and the third could be a new race (the bimorphic Thexian Elite sounded interesting).

I would say, cut down on some armies...

Like it has been said Codex: Imperium and Codex: Space Marines would be enough for the IoM.

Like it has been said Codex: Lost and the Damned and Codex: Chaos Space Marines would be enough for the Forces of Chaos

Necron, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Nids are all good as they are.

A compilation codex for renegades and mutants (non chaos related) would be nice. How about Codex: Renegades?

Another idea would be for Codex: Outer Reaches. This would be based around the various odd things in the 40k Universe.

Same concept goes for fantasy.

I have had dreams of an expansion focusing on small battles with specialized forces you wouldn't usually see at army strength, like Adeptus Arbites, Genestealer Cults, and the like. I never see it happening, but it would make me so happy if it could.

Brother SRM wrote:I have had dreams of an expansion focusing on small battles with specialized forces you wouldn't usually see at army strength, like Adeptus Arbites, Genestealer Cults, and the like. I never see it happening, but it would make me so happy if it could.

Every time somebody makes a suggestion like this, it reminds me that I should so get into Necromunda one of these days. <3

Config2 wrote:I would say, cut down on some armies...
Like it has been said Codex: Imperium and Codex: Space Marines would be enough for the IoM.
Like it has been said Codex: Lost and the Damned and Codex: Chaos Space Marines would be enough for the Forces of Chaos
Necron, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Nids are all good as they are.
A compilation codex for renegades and mutants (non chaos related) would be nice. How about Codex: Renegades?
Another idea would be for Codex: Outer Reaches. This would be based around the various odd things in the 40k Universe.

Same concept goes for fantasy.

GW keeps going from one extreme to the other every few years - they're quite schizophrenic that way. Anyone remember Codex: Craftworld Eldar? Codex: Assassins? Codex: Angels of Death? Codex: Catachans? Eye of Terror, Armageddon - things get brought out as new sub-codices then split off into their own books, then rolled back into a "mother" book. Mini-codices for half the armies, then full-sized ones. It seems that Marine codices get split off and eventually become fully-fledged army books. others get rolled back in. Why? Because Space Marines sell more models than the rest of the range.

Bring back Dogs of War.

Cheers

Andrew

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:40K
Squats - In a game that is basically at its heart fantasy in space, the lack of Dwarves is odd, I liked the range, and the concepts they had, I really can't understand what they gained from canning the army. Anyone who suggests game balance could be effected by too many armies, pause for a moment, consider we are talking about 40K, now.. facepalm.

I agree completely! As it happens, they are already here...



As was pointed out to me on another forum, the units in the Mantic Forgefather range can more or less perfectly tie up with the SM codex; Tactical units, devestators, scouts, terminators, even tanks.

It might well be that Demiug surface somewhere down the line as part of Tau Empire, but even if they do it will probably be just one character and one unit, making the prospect of an army of them tedious (and most likely expensive) to the extreme.

I'm all for more use of imagination in games and more freedom for the modeller and converter, and I often make use of 'counts as' armies although with some effort to make sure the force is intuitive to what my opponent will expect. Although 'counts as' has got a bit of a bad rep because of the number of half-assed codex bandwagoning armies (generally fielded by kids who read BoLS too much but don't have the cash to support the lifestyle), this isn't the case if you put some effort into it and I generally never have to wait for a game come club night (although that might also have something to do with my reputation as a general )

In general terms, the Forgeworld books have been an absolute godsend for the veteran 40k gamer. They are basically all of the cool stuff that has been removed from the sporadically released official codecies (which are only there to sell in bulk whatever plastic sets are newly released with that edition), the FW books are written with the hobbyist, someone who spends perhaps more time than they should on this kind of thing, in mind.

I see a long list of laments in this thread about the armies lost to time. What I always try to reinforce is that many of those armies are still perfectly fieldable - either through the FW books (even Genestealer cults), or if you are lucky enough to have an open-minded gaming circle, then through homemade rules. "There is no codex for it" should never be a control over your imagination or your desires as a hobbyist in my opinion.

Old genestealer fluff is so complete and interesting that Genestealers and Gene Cults alone would make a amazing good dex, the potential is there and I hope that one day they rise again. The way they are today represented in 40k is so simplistic and basic that its like you reduce a spacemarine chapter to one page.
With them bring the Zoats and beastmen in space to help the gene cause.

Pacific wrote:

I see a long list of laments in this thread about the armies lost to time. What I always try to reinforce is that many of those armies are still perfectly fieldable - either through the FW books (even Genestealer cults), or if you are lucky enough to have an open-minded gaming circle, then through homemade rules. "There is no codex for it" should never be a control over your imagination or your desires as a hobbyist in my opinion.

This, a very good point well made. If there were more of these the world would be just a little brighter, me thinks.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:I would also like to see a Lost and the Dammed kind of renegade PDF,IG,chaos cults kind of codex. The only problem with both of these suggestions is that you couldn't sell a entire model line and there would be alot of scratch building and converting, so the bean counters would consider them a failure and not making there money back.

How many Chaos Space Marine kits are basically the regular version with a special sprue or two thrown in?

Also, it's potentially actually a really good deal for GW depending on how they look at it. The book production is a somewhat fixed cost (paying someone to do it, production, etc.) but the sclupting costs are a lot less than they'd be for a 'regular' project that would probably need 2-4 plastic kits and some FineCast pieces. They could get away with conversion sprue kits.

A 'Cultist' or 'Traitor' force would definitely invigorate the line. It'd be really cool if it had 2-4 variants so the one list could be used for Chaos cults, Genestealer cults, etc. Maybe a generic 'Heretic' variant for those that just are tired of paying taxes to the dead Emperor but haven't made a deal with Khorne yet, or a list for Tech Heretics whoa re delving into places 40k men shouldn't delve into. Do a base list, add 1-2 special characters and 1-2 special units for each variant.

Base list: Rabble (Troops, like the IG recruit choice), Convert Guardsmen (Troops, IG Squads), Fanatics (Elite, cheap berserker types), Light Truck (FA, troop transport or vulnerable gun truck), Leman Russ (Heavy, Tank), Cult Leader (HQ).

Squad options and Wargear would be somewhat genericly themed... So a Power Weapon could be a Chaos-blessed blade or a mutation to have a Tyranid claw.

Genestealer variant would add Hybrid Stealers (FA, melee unit), Full Genestealers (Elite 0-1 unit), Patriarch (Character)

Chaos Cult would add CSM Leader (character HQ), a CSM Squad (Elite), maybe a Raptor Squad or similar

Heretics could add a "Traitor General" (HQ similar to IG command), more units based off IG stuff (Sentinels, Chimeras, etc.)

Tech Heretics could have a Dark Techpriest (HQ), some sort of Battle Robots (Maybe Terminators, but with BS/WS 3)m and maybe a custom FA vehicle.

Tek wrote:^Like!

I don't the derision for Genestealer cults. What would be good is a big old book of cults, be they chaotic, secessionist, genestealer or otherwise. That would be way cool.

Totally agree. I'd love to see a Codex: Rebels. I'm sure there are plenty of disaffected groups in the galaxy!

Y'know, I once had an idea for a Codex: Squat Rebels. I saw them as being an abhuman faction (like Ogryn or Ratlings, ), and that the fluff would join them just as rebellions started to flare on imperial forgeworlds, and they were beginning to band into rebel armies.. Or something. I imagined Ogryn and Ratlings joining in, so maybe it should have been correctly titled Codex: Abhuman Rebels.

Kind of has a nice ring to it, actually...

CT GAMER wrote:Proper genestealer cults. Bring on the Hybrids!

Yes please! The fluff for that is just too weirdly cool not to have in the game.

Pacific wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

Although I'm going off on a tangent here, I was quite pleased with the new Necron Codex, as it actually introduced some more complex narrative and motivation into the story beyond everyone saying "must kill", and behaving like a noob in a deathmatch, running forward attacking wildly until either they or their enemy are killed.

The new necron codex was Ward firing a retcon cannon at the current fluff and showing tomb king filler into it.

Config2 wrote:I would say, cut down on some armies...

Like it has been said Codex: Imperium and Codex: Space Marines would be enough for the IoM.

Like it has been said Codex: Lost and the Damned and Codex: Chaos Space Marines would be enough for the Forces of Chaos

Necron, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Nids are all good as they are.

A compilation codex for renegades and mutants (non chaos related) would be nice. How about Codex: Renegades?

Another idea would be for Codex: Outer Reaches. This would be based around the various odd things in the 40k Universe.

Same concept goes for fantasy.

Why don't we mix Dark Eldar and Eldar for Codex: Eldar. Why don't we mix Tau and Necrons for Codex: Good Xenos. Why don't we mix Nid and Orks for Codex: Evil Xenos. The different ammount of codexes equatates to different styles of play and it should never be reduced again.

Brother SRM wrote:I have had dreams of an expansion focusing on small battles with specialized forces you wouldn't usually see at army strength, like Adeptus Arbites, Genestealer Cults, and the like. I never see it happening, but it would make me so happy if it could.

I agree there should be a specialist game called Hive World or something like that with a range of Adeptus Arbites, PDF, Chaos Cult, Hive Gang, Non-Chaos rebel/secessionist, and genestealer cults to play. I'd also want a specialist game that could delve into minor xenos races that have been said to be emerging threats to the Imperium: The Ulumeathic, Dracolith, Draxian, Reek, and Hrud. It's time we actually know what these guys goddamn look like at least. Tying them in with an Ordo Xenos expansion would be great.

Personally I've always dreamed of a background book that talks about the comtemporary politics of Terra, I've always imagined it a den of political intrigue, backstabbing, and corruption in the context of epic stuff like Custodes, assassins, and palaces the size of continents. But I'll never get that either....

In any regard the codex lists should be:
-Codex: Space Marines
-Codex: Imperial Guard
-Codex: Sisters of Battle
-Codex: Daemonhunters
-Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus
-Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex: Chaos Renegades
-Codex: Eldar
-Codex: Dark Eldar
-Codex: Orks
-Codex: Necrons
-Codex: Tyranids
-Codex: Tau Empire

Mini 20ish-page sub-codex's could be included for Daemons, Black Templars, Blood Angel, Space Wolves, Dark Angels

The only codex I would reduce in the game right now is Dark Angels, solely because they don't have anything that special anymore. I'm saying this as a former Dark Angels player, and wouldn't mind getting rolled into Codex: Space Marines. Then again I was thinking the same thing with Blood Angels before the most recent codex, so who knows what GW will do with them down the road.

Harriticus wrote:

In any regard the codex lists should be:
-Codex: Space Marines
-Codex: Imperial Guard
-Codex: Sisters of Battle
-Codex: Grey Knights
-Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus
-Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex: Chaos Renegades
-Codex: Eldar
-Codex: Dark Eldar
-Codex: Orks
-Codex: Necrons
-Codex: Tyranids
-Codex: Tau Empire

Fixed that for you.
I see where your coming from I also am surprised at the recent Space Wolves and Blood Angels codex. So they should still be there IMO. I'd say daemons should certainly stay too. Black Templar and Dark Angles, yeah for me they could most certainly be rolled into Codex: Space Marines. Blood Angel and Space Wolves have always had a larger barrel of fluff and real world inspiration to push the model lines in unique directions, it just doesn't feel like GW has a big enough of a handle on the BT or DA fluff wise to justfy the book and it shows.

I’d like to see squats, genestealer cults and zoats make a comeback via forge world.

You know why Fimir were removed right? Because their method of reproduction wouldn't sit well with today's yoof

"Another theory as to the disappearance of the Fimir is due to the change in focus of GW's marketing. As 3rd edition drew to a close the focus became less on the older gamer and more towards the mid-to-late teens demographic, and as such it may have been thought that a race which reproduced via rape was not appropriate for the new target markets."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimir




But Genestealer cults were awesome, definitely worth a reboot

Skitarii legions and Chaos Dwarves.

Wouldn't mind seeing mordians back in production neither...

Genestealer Cults for 40k - they're developed, still developing and even current BL writers are making nods toward them still (Like, half the Cain series).

Eldar Exodites - Seriously. Bring them in. Why are there so many references to them but nothing to show? It'd be nice to have a 'different' Eldar army.

Codex: Space Marines. Remove the others and roll them into Codex: Chapters, with modification rules. (DA, BA, SW and BT players would all have to buy it and the SM codex, so I can see GW liking that.) Add Admech. Make GS cults possible within Tyranid Codex, or a WD/online Codex that you need the Tyranid 'dex to use.

Also, Human fantasy races.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Also, Human fantasy races.

?

I'd like to see the Valhallans return and with Ciaphas Cain as a special character (with Jurgen, of course).

He'd be able to have some awesome special rules dealing with his reputation as a courageous hero of the Imperium. Make it so that he (and any unit he is attached to) does not have to take a leadership test to determine whether they flee from combat after losing an assault phase. They can choose to stay in combat or to attempt one of Cain's "cunning plans" and lure the enemy into a trap (in which case they break off from combat without having to take an initiative test and Cain's unit will automatically regroup on their next turn).

Jurgen would negate any psykers powers directed at him and all models within a set distance from him and impart penalties on psykers within that distance.

Equipment wise Cain would have his trusty chainsword, Las pistol, Carapace armour, commissariat sash and stylish black greatcoat. Jurgen would have his lasgun, flak armour, multimelta and his odour (which could have some special rules in close combat).

Statwise Cain would have a better weapon skill and initiative than a normal Commissar, an extra wound and leadership ten. Jurgen would be like a veteran sergeant.

Balance wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Also, Human fantasy races.

?

Think he means he wants 40k equivalents for other human factions in WHFB. Bretonnia, Araby, Kislev, etc.. I would actually like a non-Imperial human civilization in 40k, a symbol of progress which respect human rights and is a rather utopic view of mankinds future which is fighting a war of survival against Imperial conquest. However whenever I think about it too much they just end up becoming the Tau.

I don't see why people are asking for Valhallans to come back when they never left. You can still buy them from GW.

Harriticus wrote:
Think he means he wants 40k equivalents for other human factions in WHFB. Bretonnia, Araby, Kislev, etc.. I would actually like a non-Imperial human civilization in 40k, a symbol of progress which respect human rights and is a rather utopic view of mankinds future which is fighting a war of survival against Imperial conquest. However whenever I think about it too much they just end up becoming the Tau.

I had similar ideas years ago, but decided that (to be honest) it just doesn't 'work' in 40k. Happy tech geeks are just not part of the setting... Going too far with tech tends to lead to people getting burned badly by either opening access routes for Chaos (AI and robotics) or otherwise breaking what passes for morals in the Imperium. It a bit of the Dune influence on the setting... Mankind needs to work for everything, lest they take it for granted.

The Squats could be considered to fill this role, too.

The only way I could see it working is in something similar to the supposed 40k Revision Rick Priestly or someone wanted to do that would have radically altered the setting. I believe I remember hearing ti was going to have Space Marines loaded down with gear as wandering nomad-types because the Imperium was shattered. Maybe in this setting there'd be a little more room for hope and a tech-heavy faction could have a role.

Imo I think the best-fitting kind of "alternate" human faction would be a kind of space Nazis/Space Communists (no, these aren't the Tau) which obsesses and worships The Party and is an atheistic society. Similar to the nation in 1984. People live in misery but are told they live better then Imperials, it is doubtful if the "Big Brother" leader even exists and may he may simply be a fabrication of The Party, and the government watches everything the citizens do. many worlds are ravaged by the wars with the Imperium (and Xenos). Could get the grimdark, dystopian setting and also have a parallel to Imperial theocracy.

The Helghast from the Killzone video game series but controlling a few systems could work.

We already have space fascists, they're called the Imperium. That honestly sounds a bit too much like the Imperium to really differentiate it anyway. I'm sure you could write there are a few planets with crazed governors who think they're gods and that would fly, so you could at least fit it in with the current fluff.

Imperium is a theocracy, not fascists. They're different. But yeah maybe it's too similar to the Imperium in most respects, like the Utopic one is too similar to the Tau.

Damnit somebody write a better human faction.