Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Has it been worked out whether or not the s8 of the abyssal staff counts towards Toughness for instant death purposes, even though it wounds on Ld?

There are other weapons that wound on LD instead of T, and they've been FAQed to ID based on LD.

I am not sure what FAQ weapon rigeld2 is talking about but Abysal staff does ID T4 models even though you roll to wound against LD. Pretty simple RAW. The HFH rule allows it to wound on 2+ against the marked squad which is nice with an AP1 flamer that IDs.

ooh quite beardy... "mind blown"

it shows the value of thinking laterally from a tactical standpoint...


the necron codex will need a lot of FAQ action before I commit to buying models at Australian prices

The Abyssal Staff is pretty straightforward RAW: It has a Strength of 8. That means it will ID anything with a Toughness of 4 or less, should the model take an unsaved wound.

The fact that it rolls to wound against Leadership rather than Toughness does not change the ID rule.

@Rigeld2: I have no idea what FAQ you are talking about.

So we have yet another counter to nob bikerz, obliterators, tyranid warriors, and all the other pesky multi-wound T4 units out there...given we can get a good scatter roll with our VOD deep strike that is.

3 FAQs that could screw deathmarks.

Does hunters from hyperspace apply to court characters or IC inside a squad of deathmarks?

Does Redeployment with grand illusion allow deathmarks to place another token?

Does the Abyssal staff ID based on Toughness or Leadership?

That being said going balls out on purchasing deathmarks and painting them to tournament levels runs the risk of severe disappointment when the FAQs come out. That and until the FAQs come out I'm not sure I would try running deathmarks in a tournament. When going up against TFG there are 3 FAQ rules he can debate, and who knows that the TO will decide. GW already FAQ'd that if rules contradict roll a 4+, so a busy or apathetic TO might just say roll off. If TFG knows what he is doing he will probably go right for the throat and contest that attached court characters are not deathmarks thus do not wound on a 2+. Is the arguement full of gak? Arguably yes it is full of gak, but it might work on a TO that is POd at Matt Ward.

My #1 point is arguing the rules here is pointless, because it doesn't change the fact that a rule has not been FAQ'd. As long as there is a debate there is a chance of loosing the debate even if your rules interpretation is the correct one.

schadenfreude wrote:3 FAQs that could screw deathmarks.

Does hunters from hyperspace apply to court characters or IC inside a squad of deathmarks?

Does Redeployment with grand illusion allow deathmarks to place another token?

Does the Abyssal staff ID based on Toughness or Leadership?

That being said going balls out on purchasing deathmarks and painting them to tournament levels runs the risk of severe disappointment when the FAQs come out. That and until the FAQs come out I'm not sure I would try running deathmarks in a tournament. When going up against TFG there are 3 FAQ rules he can debate, and who knows that the TO will decide. GW already FAQ'd that if rules contradict roll a 4+, so a busy or apathetic TO might just say roll off. If TFG knows what he is doing he will probably go right for the throat and contest that attached court characters are not deathmarks thus do not wound on a 2+. Is the arguement full of gak? Arguably yes it is full of gak, but it might work on a TO that is POd at Matt Ward.

My #1 point is arguing the rules here is pointless, because it doesn't change the fact that a rule has not been FAQ'd. As long as there is a debate there is a chance of loosing the debate even if your rules interpretation is the correct one.

1. Hunters From Hyperspace absolutely covers the entire unit, and since the Cryptek joins the unit, the Cryptek gains Hunters From Hyperspace. You can tell TFG to read the codex, it is exceptionally clear on pg. 36 & 90. RAW it is not debatable. I truly believe that there is no way in Hell that this will be FAQ'd away, simply based on how clear the rule actually is. So far, every debate about this rule has boiled down to one thing: someone doesn't like that fact that this works, and tries to muddy the waters by claiming that the Space Wolves codex has a special FAQ about Scout moves. At this point, that argument is so stupid it is making me physically tired, considering how irrelevant it is and how clear the rules are within the confines of the Necron codex.

2. RAW, yes. Again, read the actual rule on pg. 30 and you'll see that Deathmarks get to mark a unit when they are deployed. If they are deployed twice, then they can mark two units. If this gets FAQ's away, it would be only to prevent a clever trick from being exploited. This rule, I think has a 50-50 chance of being FAQ'd away. However, this shouldn't affect anything, as I've pulled this off and found that it takes too much time and effort to bother with it, as I prefer my Deathmarks to wipe units such as Devastators out before they can do an damage, which I cannot do if the Deathmarks are in reserve, as they cannot deep strike into play when a Cryptek is attached (that is in the BGB FAQ, plain as day).

3. It IDs on Toughness, just like everything else in the game. The Abyssal Staff specifies that it wounds against Leadership. However, the ID rule is not mentioned, and therefore not affected. Thus, when we read the unchallenged ID rule, we see that it says it works against the Toughness and makes no mention of anything else. Again, very clearly RAW. This one is also 50-50 about being FAQ'd away, but honestly the Deathmark strike is still viable without this element, as I seldom find multi-wound models in my marks.

However, you are right, there is no FAQ yet and these could all get FAQ's in favour of the people who are either mouth-breathers and unable to figure out these obvious rules or else who have all become TFG themselves and simply want to take away the Necron's toys out of spite. However, I seriously doubt that GW will wreck the Deathmark units, because if they were to do that, then nobody would buy the models. And as GW exists to sell models, and NOT rulebooks, I'm sure you can agree that it is unlikely to see the Deathmarks ruined to appease TFG at the expense of their profit margin.

schadenfreude wrote:
Does hunters from hyperspace apply to court characters or IC inside a squad of deathmarks?

Codex says the to wound bonus applies to all UNITS of deathmarks, if the court character is in the unit, it applies to the whole unit.

Not just the unit that placed the mark, not all deathmarks (as an individual soldier each), but all UNITS of deathmarks.

PS: can a court character deep strike with the deathmarks?

schadenfreude wrote:
Does Redeployment with grand illusion allow deathmarks to place another token?

This one is the dangerous one that could be FAQd

schadenfreude wrote:
Does the Abyssal staff ID based on Toughness or Leadership?

For once, RAI is pretty clear because, while it is STR8, the Abyssal staff cannot hurt vehicles.... as written in the codex...

so, if it can't damage vehicles, and it wounds based on leadership, why is it STR8??

STR8 would be redundant then. It should be Str X like some of the exotic DE weapons entries (like DE flyer missiles)

No, a court character cannot deep strike with the Deathmarks, as per the BGB FAQ.

However, saying that the Abyssal Staff cannot ID someone because it cannot hurt a tank is like comparing apples to cars.

What if the Court memeber had the VoD? Doesn't that confer the deepstrike rule to the member?

azazel the cat wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:I do not think it works as per the rules.

The reason is redeploying with the C'tan means you never deployed there in the first place. That's the point of the illusion. Illusionary deathmarks cannot mark opponents with HtH.

If you try to use something so obviously against the spirit of the rules, you will quickly find your gaming choices limited to the few beardy gits that use such stuff. And they are usually no fun to play against, unless from time to time you get the twisted desire to make them cry by beating them at their own game. But that is like eating excrement just so that the other guy eats it too.

Yes, you did deploy. Grand Illusion takes place after scout moves have been made, which is well after deployment. So you deploy, there are scout moves, then you put the Deathmarks back into reserves, and eventually they will get redeployed again. That is two full deployments.

Well, I'll eventually refuse to play against TFG.

azazel the cat wrote:No, a court character cannot deep strike with the Deathmarks, as per the BGB FAQ.

However, saying that the Abyssal Staff cannot ID someone because it cannot hurt a tank is like comparing apples to cars.

The BGB faq doesn't have anything to do with court characters deepstriking. The Space Wolves faq clearly states that when someone is added to a unit, they have all unit-wide special rules. If the court char can't deepstrike with the Deathmarks, he also can't use the +2 to wound against marked targets.

Irdiumstern wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:No, a court character cannot deep strike with the Deathmarks, as per the BGB FAQ.

However, saying that the Abyssal Staff cannot ID someone because it cannot hurt a tank is like comparing apples to cars.

The BGB faq doesn't have anything to do with court characters deepstriking. The Space Wolves faq clearly states that when someone is added to a unit, they have all unit-wide special rules. If the court char can't deepstrike with the Deathmarks, he also can't use the +2 to wound against marked targets.

Besides, I am pretty sure the 2+ to wound applies only to the synaptic disintergrater anyway, considering how it always wounds on a 4+

Irdiumstern wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:No, a court character cannot deep strike with the Deathmarks, as per the BGB FAQ.

However, saying that the Abyssal Staff cannot ID someone because it cannot hurt a tank is like comparing apples to cars.

The BGB faq doesn't have anything to do with court characters deepstriking. The Space Wolves faq clearly states that when someone is added to a unit, they have all unit-wide special rules. If the court char can't deepstrike with the Deathmarks, he also can't use the +2 to wound against marked targets.

Why do people keep using SW FAQ for an argument for/against a completely different army? Does it also say in the SW FAQ that it applies to all armies?

I'm confused.......

Here's what it says in the SW faq

Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader
assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before
the game begins because of its Scouts special rule,
choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines? (p86)

A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack
Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the
fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule
does not preclude the squad he has joined from using
those abilities.

Now from the reason given above, you could extrapolate that it's the same deal with the crypteks.

Dodgywop wrote:
I'm confused.......

Having read the SW FAQ text... one word, precedence.




What does the BGB FAQ say precisely? How is it worded?

Read the Deathmarks entry again. The Crytek is attached to the Deathmarks unit, the wording is that the UNIT wounds on a 2+, so ergo the Cryptek wounds on a 2+. It's not just "synaptic degenerators"

Well, I had thought that the RAI was that it affected only the synaptic rifles because of the weapon's SX...but then I read that it also affected CC attacks, which are resolved at S4, so I guess the cryptek could be affected. Question is though, will the abysmal staff be? Because an AP1 weapon that always wounds on a 2+ is pretty damn crazy.

DE FAQ, page 3, 4th question on the left.

Q: When using Asdrubael Vect's Obsidian Orbs or the Orbs of Despair, do you use the target's Toughness or Leadership for the purposes of working out if Instant Death applies? (p55)
A: You use the target's Leadership.

The orbs wound on Leadership, and models without a Leadership value are unaffected. The Abyssal Staff will likely be FAQed the same way.

rigeld2 wrote:DE FAQ, page 3, 4th question on the left.

Q: When using Asdrubael Vect's Obsidian Orbs or the Orbs of Despair, do you use the target's Toughness or Leadership for the purposes of working out if Instant Death applies? (p55)
A: You use the target's Leadership.

The orbs wound on Leadership, and models without a Leadership value are unaffected. The Abyssal Staff will likely be FAQed the same way.

Fair point.

I think I understand the RAI now. The STR value is used against leadership to determine the chance of wounding.


So the abyss staff is Str 8, so against a Ld 8 model, they wound on a 4+

Obsidian Orbs are Str 10, so against a Ld 10 model they wound on a 4+

In short, Toughness is substituted for Ld in the calculation




So yes, very high chance it will be FAQd away. Wouldn't it be better to use a Tremorstave on the Crytek because of the blast marker?

I still think the Abyssal staff is worth it - it's a template, right? So wounding on 2+ (vs marked units), ignoring cover... better than an attack that will scatter.

Irdiumstern wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:No, a court character cannot deep strike with the Deathmarks, as per the BGB FAQ.

However, saying that the Abyssal Staff cannot ID someone because it cannot hurt a tank is like comparing apples to cars.

The BGB faq doesn't have anything to do with court characters deepstriking. The Space Wolves faq clearly states that when someone is added to a unit, they have all unit-wide special rules. If the court char can't deepstrike with the Deathmarks, he also can't use the +2 to wound against marked targets.

You are obviously speaking without having read the BGB FAQ, as it directly contradicts you.

The BGB FAQ specifically states that a unit cannot deep strike unless all models in the unit have the deep strike rule.

However, the 2+ rule is just like any other unit ability, that DOES transfer to any model that would join the unit.

Why are they different rules? Because the latter is the standard rule, and the former is the exception, as specified by GW.

If you want to prove me wrong, then at least try to read the rules that I am talking about first. The entirety of the Deathmark rules can be determined very clearly from the Necron codex and the BGB, and their associated FAQs. There is absolutely no need to cite the Space Wolves or Dark Eldar codices, as they are completely irrelevant. If using the Space Wolves codex is your plan, then you may as well also quote Bible verses, as it is equally relevant and necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

severedblue wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:DE FAQ, page 3, 4th question on the left.

Q: When using Asdrubael Vect's Obsidian Orbs or the Orbs of Despair, do you use the target's Toughness or Leadership for the purposes of working out if Instant Death applies? (p55)
A: You use the target's Leadership.

The orbs wound on Leadership, and models without a Leadership value are unaffected. The Abyssal Staff will likely be FAQed the same way.

Fair point.

I think I understand the RAI now. The STR value is used against leadership to determine the chance of wounding.


So the abyss staff is Str 8, so against a Ld 8 model, they wound on a 4+

Obsidian Orbs are Str 10, so against a Ld 10 model they wound on a 4+

In short, Toughness is substituted for Ld in the calculation




So yes, very high chance it will be FAQd away. Wouldn't it be better to use a Tremorstave on the Crytek because of the blast marker?

Two things: First I personally prefer to use the Abyssal Staff because it's wielded by the same guy that brings the VoD, and because it is an AP1 template, and so it ignores cover and all armour saves. Far more powerful, though its range is shorter as the tradeoff.

Second, the DE FAQ does specify that you use the Ld to determine ID with that weapon, but until a FAQ specifically says otherwise, RAW the Abyssal Staff hits ID against Str, as that is what the current ID rule says. You'll also note that the ID rule appears to be independent of how the wound is determined; it is only concerned with if there is an unsaved wound or not, and if so what the math is between the two stated values: Weapon Strength vs. model Toughness. I recognize that RAI may be otherwise, and this may get FAQ'd away, but at present RAI must take a backseat to RAW, because RAW are indisputable, whereas RAI is subjective.

azazel the cat wrote:\I recognize that RAI may be otherwise, and this may get FAQ'd away, but at present RAI must take a backseat to RAW, because RAW are indisputable, whereas RAI is subjective.

Agree on all points, except this observation

RAW or not

I wouldn't drop money into Deathmarks if this would be FAQd away because I pay Australian prices for models (esp since they closed maelstrom's sales outside the EU)

severedblue wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:\I recognize that RAI may be otherwise, and this may get FAQ'd away, but at present RAI must take a backseat to RAW, because RAW are indisputable, whereas RAI is subjective.

Agree on all points, except this observation

RAW or not

I wouldn't drop money into Deathmarks if this would be FAQd away because I pay Australian prices for models (esp since they closed maelstrom's sales outside the EU)

Totally understandable. I always feel bad when I start whining about Canadian prices, considering the comparison.

However, even if the ID element gets FAQ'd away, I seriously doubt that the 2+ rule will not apply to any other units, considering just how clear it has been written to do so. Honestly, every person that has actually read the rule and still thinks it is a misprint or just shouldn't apply is just being TFG and intentionally misreading it, because it is as clear as day. In the other 2 threads about this rule, and probably this one as well, I've even presented the rule verbatim from the codex, and no logical counterargument ever pops up.

That being said, even without the ID ability being iron-clad, the Deathmarks + Cryptek combo is still worth it. (But you might wanna find someone on the Swap Shop to purchase from anyway)

Read the wording on the SW faq. It suggests that it applies in all cases, and not just to the SW.

The Cron FAQ is almost certain to follow the DE FAQ and say that ID is based on LD not T, then even after the Cron FAQ comes out chaos legions will get a weapon that does the same thing and people will argue again that the chaos legion new toy IDs on T not LD because it's "RAW".

I'm also not sure if cypteks can deep strike, and I could see that one getting FAQ'd either way. Regardless of how it's FAQ'd I'm not sold that deep striking is the best way to go. It's risky and scatter is a bitch. Close enough to flame template=high risk of mishap. Far enough not to risk a mishap means the target has time to response before eating the template. Buzzing around in a supersonic night scythe 4+ cover save until it's time to unload and flame template doesn't seem like a bad idea. If it gets shot down the death marks redeploy, and the cron player gets to mark another unit. The other problem I see with a C'tan as a deathmark buffer is it will cost the about same as 2 night scythes.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Read the wording on the SW faq. It suggests that it applies in all cases, and not just to the SW.

The SW FAQ no more applies to the Necrons as does the SW codex.

schadenfreude wrote:I'm also not sure if cypteks can deep strike

I am sure they can't. Here's why: (oh, and CthuluIsSpy, unlike the Space Wolves FAQ, the BGB FAQ actually does apply to all cases)

BGB FAQ http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1830600a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_4.pdf
Q: Can a unit Deep Strike if only some of the models in it have the deep strike special rule? (p95) A: No.

Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader
assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before
the game begins because of its Scouts special rule,
choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines? (p86)

A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack
Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the
fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule
does not preclude the squad he has joined from using
those abilities.

Crypteks are not IC (like Wolf Guards) and can attached to squads (like wolf guards) and therefore could benefit from the the same rules.

Now if the reason why the wolf guard could use the squad's abilities was specified that it could only be applied to Wolf Guard, then yes the BGB would take priority. However, it states that

is [The wolf guard] not an Independent Character and therefore the
fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule
does not preclude the squad he has joined from using
those abilities.

You could just as easily substitute cryptek in place of wolf guard, and it would still be valid.

Nevermind. Turns out this logic does not apply to DS.

Deepstrike is not a USR, like Scouts and Infiltrate. The BGB specifies that models cannot deepstrike without the special rule, it makes no difference IC or not.

Sasori wrote:Deepstrike is not a USR, like Scouts and Infiltrate. The BGB specifies that models cannot deepstrike without the special rule, it makes no difference IC or not.

Oh really? Well, that kills my reasoning.
So what is DS then if not an USR?