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This was a toss up to post in Tactics or Rules Questions

I found what I think is a cheesy combo.
Possibly it isn't points effective but I'm pretty sure it's legal by RAW.

Deploy second if at all possible so your opponent has some units on the board.
Deploy two units of Deathmarks and put out your HfH tokens. (The Deathmarks benefit from each others HfH tokens)
Use a Shard with Grand Illusion to put at least one Deathmark unit and possibly both into reserve.
When the Deathmarks deploy from reserve you get to put out new HfH tokens.

Combine this with a two overlord/ royal court list so you can attach double Crypteks with Tremorstaves to each Deathmark unit and you get double 36" range 2+ wounding blasts on HfH marked units.
Alternatively, go double tremorstaves in one court and veil in the other court so at least one Deathmark unit can to jump around the board.
Add Writhing Worldscape to the Shard and those Tremorstave blasts are causing dangerous terrain checks as well.

Attaching the Crypteks will make you lose Deepstrike and Ethereal Interception so maybe a Monolith would be nice to get your Deathmarks out of reserve

Anyway, do you think you can combine Grand Illusion and Hunters From Hyperspace in this way and does it make any sense to do so?

Thanks

That is a whole basket of Easter Eggs. Let's see, you may have something with multiple HfH tokens, as you specifically deploy during deployment (funny how that works), when you Deep Strike, and when you arrive from reserves via the table edge. However, 'disembarking' from the Monolith is not specifically stated as 'deploying', so getting them out of reserve that way would not garner these hypothetical 'extra' HfH tokens. It's too late to think about that other stuff.

Holy you just made my day.

RAW, it does work. They are deployed originally, which requires you to mark a unit. Then you use Grand Illusion to move them back into reserves, where they can be redeployed, triggering another opportunity to mark a unit. Since there is no provision stating that the mark is removed when the Deathmarks are, the original mark would stay.

I run two units of Harbinger of Despair & Deathmarks, and have been trying to find a reason to use a C'Tan with Writhing Worldscape and something else in the army.

You have seriously just given my army much more synergy.



For that, I give you a cookie.

I really wouldn't mind if thinking like this led to the Necrons being literally unbeatable by any other army. At least you would have combine things in a certain order and sequence that takes finesse and perhaps a little D6 luck. Unlike Gray Knights who just give you the extra S, I, A, T, etc.

Holy crap. It does work, RAW. Wow, if that doesn't get FAQ'd it's going to cause a ton of arguments.

So, 2 squads of deathmarks, a grand illusion c'tan, 2 royal courts (2 VoD) (or obyron)? Then troops and probably a scarab farm for tarpit and at?

[edited to fix my noob error]

*reads*

*dies*

You just made my day. RAW this can be done, but holy jesus I can already imagine the arguments it's going to cause. I want to run it solely to troll people, and if it gets accepted deliver delicious 2+ death to my enemies.

I wouldn't expect to ever play a second game against an opponent I used this tactic on, whether it's legal or not.

junk wrote:Holy crap. It does work, RAW. Wow, if that doesn't get FAQ'd it's going to cause a ton of arguments.

so, 3 squads of deathmarks, a grand illusion c'tan, 2 royal courts (2 VoD) and then what, obyron for a 3rd? Then troops and probably a scarab farm for tarpit and at?

Yep, except you can't run three deathmarks and a C'tan, Too many Elite slots. Also If you bring in the Scarabs you've got some options. If you go first you can do a spyder/scarab conga line. If you go second you can do your double deploy HfH trick.

You can also combo the tremorstave quake blasts to try and get your opponents vehicles to either hold still or get immobilized so the scarabs can eat them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghenghis Jon wrote:That is a whole basket of Easter Eggs. Let's see, you may have something with multiple HfH tokens, as you specifically deploy during deployment (funny how that works), when you Deep Strike, and when you arrive from reserves via the table edge. However, 'disembarking' from the Monolith is not specifically stated as 'deploying', so getting them out of reserve that way would not garner these hypothetical 'extra' HfH tokens. It's too late to think about that other stuff.

Good call on the Monolith. That a shame though. This trick requires such a specific sequence of events and you're putting such a big chunk of your power off the table it would have been nice to have a reliable way to get them back when you need them. Orikan would help but he doesn't combo well with the list unless the FAQ confirms that Writhing Worldscape stacks with Temporal Snares. Current interpretations say no.


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Hey what if you put the Deathmark/Cryptek Unit in a Night Scythe to give them back deepstrike. Could you then couple it to Nemesor Zahndrekh's Phased Reinforcements rule? The wording for Phased Reinforcements is almost identical to Ethereal Interception so I'd say If you can place a HfH token using Ethereal Interception you should be able to place one when using Phased Reinforcements as well.

I do not think it works as per the rules.

The reason is redeploying with the C'tan means you never deployed there in the first place. That's the point of the illusion. Illusionary deathmarks cannot mark opponents with HtH.

If you try to use something so obviously against the spirit of the rules, you will quickly find your gaming choices limited to the few beardy gits that use such stuff. And they are usually no fun to play against, unless from time to time you get the twisted desire to make them cry by beating them at their own game. But that is like eating excrement just so that the other guy eats it too.

Necrontyr40k wrote:I do not think it works as per the rules.

The reason is redeploying with the C'tan means you never deployed there in the first place. That's the point of the illusion. Illusionary deathmarks cannot mark opponents with HtH.

If you try to use something so obviously against the spirit of the rules, you will quickly find your gaming choices limited to the few beardy gits that use such stuff. And they are usually no fun to play against, unless from time to time you get the twisted desire to make them cry by beating them at their own game. But that is like eating excrement just so that the other guy eats it too.

It may not be RAI but I do think it's RAW. I mostly play with friends and we don't mind a little face beating / nasty combos from time to time. I'd would never use this trick regularly but it might be fun to break out occasionally.

Here's a 2000 pt list

HQ
Nemesor Zahndrekh
Royal Court 2x T-mog Crypteks
w tremorstaves

Vargard Obyron

Overlord [Phaeron]
Royal Court 2x T-mog Crypteks
w tremorstaves

Troops
2 x 9 Warriors

Elites
C’tan Shard
w Grand Illusion and Writhing Worldscape

2x 7 Deathmarks
1 w a Night Scythe

Fast Atack
3x3 Canoptek Scarabs

Heavy Support
2x2 Canoptek Spyders
2 with Gloom cookies

Monolith

Double up T-mog Cyrpteks in each Deathmark unit and attach Obyron to one for Ghostwalk mantle-veiling. Zahndrekh or the Overlord can go either with the other squad of D-marks or with some warriors to give them either relentless or the res-orb. You've also got a small scarab farm and some anti-psychic Gloom. The Monolith and Night Scythe give you some mobility and flexibility. Zandrekh and the Monolith will make sure you can get the D-marks on the board in an emergency though you won't get your extra HfH tokens.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something else awesome. You would NEVER do this on purpose, but If you happen to Deepstrike mishap with Obyron and the D-marks and get put in reserve you'd get to put out ANOTHER HfH token when you come back on the board!

Sure Seems to work RAW wise.

I personally don't think I could do this and feel comfortable in a game though.

Be careful people, you're treading TFG waters.

Let's say it does work, is it really that good?
Death Marks have to be so close to be effective, it doesn't seem like they are going to last long enough to take advantage of a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th marked unit.

-Matt

My question is, would this be any good against mech, GK, Orks, wolves or BA? Your sniper weapons dont have a great mathhammer chance of killing armor 11 and 12. You have a scarab squad but if they get hit in combat by a good CC unit (mephiston, Thrakka, THSS, GKs, Furioso, Cav etc etc) then theyre pretty much gone. Ive seen that this army doesnt have an over abundance of big tank killing guns and for me that seems to be a problem.

Cyrax wrote:Be careful people, you're treading TFG waters.

Even if all of these shenanigans worked at the highest possible success rate, the player would have units in reserve during his turn and not throwing dice. And who knows how all of this together would work out, or how competitive it would be. There is a difference between being TFG and just trying out combos. I try new stuff all the time that other players have never seen before, but that does not mean I am trying to create an unfair advantage, just having fun, you know, playing a game.

I think that guy status is earned when they try to rules lawyer the hell outta you and not be too concerned when he happens to "forget" one on his turn.

Necrontyr40k wrote:I do not think it works as per the rules.

The reason is redeploying with the C'tan means you never deployed there in the first place. That's the point of the illusion. Illusionary deathmarks cannot mark opponents with HtH.

If you try to use something so obviously against the spirit of the rules, you will quickly find your gaming choices limited to the few beardy gits that use such stuff. And they are usually no fun to play against, unless from time to time you get the twisted desire to make them cry by beating them at their own game. But that is like eating excrement just so that the other guy eats it too.

Yes, you did deploy. Grand Illusion takes place after scout moves have been made, which is well after deployment. So you deploy, there are scout moves, then you put the Deathmarks back into reserves, and eventually they will get redeployed again. That is two full deployments.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Cyrax wrote:Be careful people, you're treading TFG waters.

Even if all of these shenanigans worked at the highest possible success rate, the player would have units in reserve during his turn and not throwing dice. And who knows how all of this together would work out, or how competitive it would be. There is a difference between being TFG and just trying out combos. I try new stuff all the time that other players have never seen before, but that does not mean I am trying to create an unfair advantage, just having fun, you know, playing a game.

Sorry did not mean to call anyone TFG. Just wanted to warn you that, you might get called one, because there is a false belief that all new codices are always the best and there are people who claim Necrons to be already OP.

Kemen'tep wrote:Something else awesome. You would NEVER do this on purpose, but If you happen to Deepstrike mishap with Obyron and the D-marks and get put in reserve you'd get to put out ANOTHER HfH token when you come back on the board!

This won't work, because the mishap'd unit never actually did deploy- they never made it to the board. Hence, the mishap. But I like where you're trying to go with this.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Let's say it does work, is it really that good?
Death Marks have to be so close to be effective, it doesn't seem like they are going to last long enough to take advantage of a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th marked unit.

-Matt

If you pick your targets carefully, I've found that they work great as infantry/elite sweepers. 1x Harbinger of Despair and 5x Deathmarks will usually take out 6-8 marines in one round of shooting.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Cyrax wrote:Be careful people, you're treading TFG waters.

Even if all of these shenanigans worked at the highest possible success rate, the player would have units in reserve during his turn and not throwing dice. And who knows how all of this together would work out, or how competitive it would be. There is a difference between being TFG and just trying out combos. I try new stuff all the time that other players have never seen before, but that does not mean I am trying to create an unfair advantage, just having fun, you know, playing a game.

I don't think it makes you TFG. It's more about what your play style is. The people I regularly play with know that I love to use crazy gambits and am willing to VoD into insane situations, so this suits my play style perfectly. I think TFG is more of a label for people that intentionally misread rules.



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Cyrax wrote:

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Cyrax wrote:Be careful people, you're treading TFG waters.

Even if all of these shenanigans worked at the highest possible success rate, the player would have units in reserve during his turn and not throwing dice. And who knows how all of this together would work out, or how competitive it would be. There is a difference between being TFG and just trying out combos. I try new stuff all the time that other players have never seen before, but that does not mean I am trying to create an unfair advantage, just having fun, you know, playing a game.

Sorry did not mean to call anyone TFG. Just wanted to warn you that, you might get called one, because there is a false belief that all new codices are always the best and there are people who claim Necrons to be already OP.

No offense taken. I think the Necrons are becoming a lot more competitive than they were, but even with the synergy, I'm not really getting a sense of them being in any way OP, just because any given nasty trick the Necrons can come up with seems to be expensive enough that you have to build an army around it, and that will always make things much more situational than, say, GK or IG. I really do think that Necrons are going to be just slightly behind DE.

RAW, not RAI... and a serious chance at becoming TFG.

Though, this really makes me want to include Deathmarks in my army!

Wonder what'll happen when Darrell at Beasts of War hears about this?

azazel the cat wrote:

Yes, you did deploy. Grand Illusion takes place after scout moves have been made, which is well after deployment. So you deploy, there are scout moves, then you put the Deathmarks back into reserves, and eventually they will get redeployed again. That is two full deployments.

So, why is it called GRAND ILLUSION then? Why not say C'tan TELEPORTS them unerringly instead?

Regardless, if it does turn out to be RAW, but it so obviously is not RAI, the (ab)user becomes TFG. And I have no patience or game time for TFG. There are plenty of decent honorable players to have fun games with instead.

This sounds like the people who refused to play against anyone usinf JotWW. lol

HawaiiMatt wrote:Let's say it does work, is it really that good?
Death Marks have to be so close to be effective, it doesn't seem like they are going to last long enough to take advantage of a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th marked unit.

-Matt

True, but those tremorstave blasts from the attached Crypteks will be benefiting from the HfH tokens as well, so you've got some 36" range blasts that wound on a 2+. That's about as good as you can get range-wise with Necrons. On top of that they cause difficult terrain checks (dangerous if you add Wraithing Worldscape). You could always put the Phaeron Overlord in with the Deathmarks as well to make sure they're getting their full 24" range all the time with Relentless.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:My question is, would this be any good against mech, GK, Orks, wolves or BA? Your sniper weapons dont have a great mathhammer chance of killing armor 11 and 12. You have a scarab squad but if they get hit in combat by a good CC unit (mephiston, Thrakka, THSS, GKs, Furioso, Cav etc etc) then theyre pretty much gone. Ive seen that this army doesnt have an over abundance of big tank killing guns and for me that seems to be a problem.

This is a gimmick list so you're not wrong but I don't think you're defenseless against tanks either. Hopefully some will get immobilized by the tremorstaves which would let the scarabs entropic strike them to death. Spyders and C'tan aren't too shabby at cracking tanks either, particularly ones that haven't moved. The particle whip aint what it used to be but it isn't terriible against tanks, also the Nemesor can give one friendly unit a turn tank hunter so you can get one more point on your pen roll. I suppose you could put Eldrich lances in the second court but they won't combo as well with HfH and you'd need to make some points room.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:

Kemen'tep wrote:Something else awesome. You would NEVER do this on purpose, but If you happen to Deepstrike mishap with Obyron and the D-marks and get put in reserve you'd get to put out ANOTHER HfH token when you come back on the board!

This won't work, because the mishap'd unit never actually did deploy- they never made it to the board. Hence, the mishap. But I like where you're trying to go with this.

Oh, I wasn't clear. I totally agree that if you mishap during deployment no token goes out, but if your Obyron unit is already on the board from a successful deployment and then you mishap into reserve during a veil move you would get to put out an extra HfH token when you deploy back out of reserve.

Kemen'tep wrote:Oh, I wasn't clear. I totally agree that if you mishap during deployment no token goes out, but if your Obyron unit is already on the board from a successful deployment and then you mishap into reserve during a veil move you would get to put out an extra HfH token when you deploy back out of reserve.

Oh, yeah, I get it now. Yeah, that would definitely work, and is very, very devious. And as I said, synergizes very nicely with my balls-to-the-wall VoD play style. (I love attempting to VoD onto CoD ledges. Direct hit or else mishap, no in-between!)

You are brilliant, and I think I am going to have to steal all your ideas and pretend that they are my own.

Necrontyr40k wrote:So, why is it called GRAND ILLUSION then? Why not say C'tan TELEPORTS them unerringly instead?

The motives of the C'Tan are beyond our understanding.

Necrontyr40k wrote:Regardless, if it does turn out to be RAW, but it so obviously is not RAI, the (ab)user becomes TFG. And I have no patience or game time for TFG. There are plenty of decent honorable players to have fun games with instead.

I find it very arrogant to believe that you alone possess the necessary insight to determine exactly what the intention behind a rule is. RAI, when not explicitly stated by GW, is merely your own subjective interpretation, and you have effectively just said that you will not play against anyone that does not share your narrow worldview. And that makes YOU TFG.

Seriously, it's not some major game breaking cheese; it's a clever exploit that requires a hefty investment and a favorable random outcome in order to take full advantage of. The benefit is negligible and not at all over powered.

It's a cool way to take advantage of some unforeseen synergy in the codex, if it happens to coincide with your game plan, then by all means use it; you get into dicey territory only because it's something that may not appear in the faq and people on the receiving end of it aren't going to be thrilled about it, so arguments will occur.

It's definitely cool and innovative, so +1 to the OP for coming up with it.

props to the OP for noticing that. RAW seems to support it.

I gotta say though...If I was gonna bet on it I would bet its not RAI.

It will probably get a FAQ.

I could see this being debated in my playgroup, but I dont think anyone I know wants to play it and be TFG...

Dear lord... Let the apocalypse begin...

The more I think about it, the more this isn't 'broken'. The RAW is pretty clear, but the RAI isn't. This may be intended! Tremorstaves makes it a little crazy. Sure, you are hitting on a 2+, but there are tactics that can be used to reduce the damage a blast can do. I can't think of an army that would be completely hosed by this (excepting maybe Dragiowing paladins)...

If I'm a space marine player, and I see that my opponent has Deathmarks and a C'Tan... you'd better believe that I'm going to combat squad in order to make the HfH less effective.

azazel the cat wrote:

Kemen'tep wrote:Oh, I wasn't clear. I totally agree that if you mishap during deployment no token goes out, but if your Obyron unit is already on the board from a successful deployment and then you mishap into reserve during a veil move you would get to put out an extra HfH token when you deploy back out of reserve.

Oh, yeah, I get it now. Yeah, that would definitely work, and is very, very devious. And as I said, synergizes very nicely with my balls-to-the-wall VoD play style. (I love attempting to VoD onto CoD ledges. Direct hit or else mishap, no in-between!)

You are brilliant, and I think I am going to have to steal all your ideas and pretend that they are my own.

Hey Azazel I've been thinking of a C'tan-less list variant based on your play style.

I'm calling it a "Hunting Accident" list.

So don't take a C'tan. This opens up that third elites slot for another unit of D-marks. This way you know you'll get to put out at least three HfH tokens. Take the Nemesor/Obyron/Overlord combo to get two courts and the Ghostwalk Mantle. For each court go triple Despair Crypteks with Abyssal Staffs and one with VoD. D-mark units one and two each get an Overlord or The Nemesor, an Abyssal staff Cryptek and a VoD Cryptek. Obyron goes with the third D-mark unit with the remaining two staff Crypteks. So all three units are veiling with two templates. You've got to be right in the other units face to get full use of the 2+ wounding, AP1 templates but that's to your advantage since you have an increased chance to mishap into reserve to get that extra HfH token when you re-deploy. Bring a few Night Scythes to load your D-mark units into to regain Deepstrike and combo with the Nemesor's "phased reinforcements"

You could always add something else to the courts if you want some close combat protection.

Just think if The Nemesor rolls up on a HfH marked unit Obyron can pin point Veil to any spot within 6 inches of him and bring FOUR 2+ wounding AP1 templates plus all the Deathmark shots and just annihilate the target.

At first I was thinking go small on the D-mark unit size since the tactic is so inherently risky but I say just go for it. Load em up with as many D-marks as you can afford.

I'm pretty sure the disembarking rules are phrased as deploy within 2" of a hatch. So you could possibly skip the mishap step and just keep embarking and disembarking from a Nightscythe.