Forge world rage.

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**Pouncey**

notabot187 wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Any player who refuses to play against non-apoc FW models doesn't deserve to play. They are more well balanced than many codex items.

I have had a player rage when i brought my r'alai and XV9 heavy list, however when he realized how many points I was paying for those models, he relented.

So you are the gate keeper on who gets to play now? That's rather presumptuous.

Nice anecdote, how is is it relevant? Its his choice whether to play as much as it is yours. Your the one who wished to bring something nonstandard to a game with probably little to no warning. Just because you got your way doesn't make it right.

@Vaktathi: I owned DE during that time period. The codex and models were available in stores later than you think, most stores CHOSE to not have them because they weren't on the mandatory buy list. Most FLGS have multiple reps they can get things through, and my stores were able to get my models through both official channels and through secondary sources. Hell, most of the models were on the website and GW order book until a year before the new book was ready to launch. As for more expensive they really weren't. The old models were cheaper than the new ones by a considerable margin, there was a copy of the rule book on 2/3 of the FLGS. The rules were straight foward and not hard to figure out (dark lance is same as bright lance, splinter weapons suck, and dissintergraters are plasma cannons with alt fire mode, and you spam the 3 units that are actually effective... not hard to figure out)

Your argument smells like a strawman. The convention is standard codex only 40k. If you say you are bringing an IG army, one expects a normal codex army. One does not expect a full or partial IA #whatever army complete with thud guns, hades breaching drill, cyclops demolition vehicle, or whatever.

If you plan on bringing things outside of codex, informing your opponent should be expected. Even if he is ok with it, telling him about it as you deploy (or even after in the case of special reserve units) is rude and off-putting at the very least, and seeking unfair advantage at the worst.

@king pariah: In this case he was using FW (which is owned by GW) models which cost more money (his prerogative) to represent units that were legal in a normal guard army. Even at an official GW store those models would be allowed (and encouraged). As for the utter bull, its only such if your friend was penalized for having an opponent refuse to play. Then its on the TO's head for running a poor event.

I think everybody is caught up in the whole price part of my argument. I bought into 40k pretty deeply, I have 4 active armies and some retired ones atm, each of the active armies is at least 1850, and one of the retired ones is 3k. I would rather have a whole new army than invest in some coffee table books and some cute or broken units that I will rarely want to or be able to run.

I don't want to read a huge fluff bunny encyclopaedia of the worst parts of 40k (the parts that's serious business all the time) with ridiculous units or even overly reasonable units. Guess what, some people don't like the fluff that much, or like only parts of it. I don't care if the units exists somewhere in 40k universe. Is it likely to be in a particular battlefield? Most of the FW units are implied to be specialized variants and/or rather rare or for specialized support roles only, I wouldn't expect them to be in a normal skirmish sized battle (and even 3k is a skirmish even by IRL standards).

Sure there isn't an "official GW" ruling on what standard 40k is or isn't. Not surprising for a company that only reluctantly issues FAQs and eratta (and often with rather strange conflicts and non use of precedent). Most people I'm aware of consider "normal" 40k to be codex only.

Most of the rage I've seen is from people who bought into IA without considering their opponents, and then go all belligerent when people don't want to play against it. "I bought this, just because you are poor (true or not) doesn't mean you can't decide to play me! I'm ENTITLED TO A GAME" Next time I'm in the shop maybe I should show up with dreadfleet and demand people play with me. I wonder how that will go over? Or since that isn't 40k, I'll just play my pre GK pre WD SoB IG/INQ mashup that used to be allowed. I'm sure I'll find an opponent, eventually...

Okay, I gotta know...

Why is this argument still going?

Notabot doesn't want to play against armies including units that use ForgeWorld rules. And honestly, he doesn't have to play a game if he doesn't want to, regardless of the reason. For all the gods care, the reason could be that he doesn't like his opponent's shirt, or that the floor is the wrong color, it's his decision whether he wants to play or not.

Is he saying that others can't use ForgeWorld units even with their opponent's consent? No. Is he saying that others can't consent to their opponent using ForgeWorld rules? No. What he's saying is that he, personally, will not be consenting to his opponent using ForgeWorld rules, and that he'd like to be informed of such as early as reasonably possible, and also that there are likely other people like him out there.

Wait... is the argument going on for the benefit of others, to try to convince the undecided people that ForgeWorld units aren't necessarily overpowered and underpriced?

Edit: Also, Loki, wings are specifically excluded from line of sight, as are tails. I'll fetch my rulebook to post the page number. Okies, got it. Page 16, in the paragraph immediately ABOVE the section titled, "Own Unit."

**-Loki-**

Pouncey wrote:Edit: Also, Loki, wings are specifically excluded from line of sight, as are tails. I'll fetch my rulebook to post the page number. Okies, got it. Page 16, in the paragraph immediately ABOVE the section titled, "Own Unit."

Then that makes it actually harder to draw LOS to. Still doesn't make it an illegal model, regardless of being FW.

**Panzerboy26**

I've got a 1500pt list with 3 Land Raider Achilles. I've yet to field it in a tournament (my FLGS recently decided to allow 40k FW units provided you have both the book and the actual FW model into tournaments), but it's done very well in the games that I have fielded it in.

No one has complained about it, even though it is a fairly powerful list.

**Pouncey**

-Loki- wrote:
Pouncey wrote:Edit: Also, Loki, wings are specifically excluded from line of sight, as are tails. I'll fetch my rulebook to post the page number. Okies, got it. Page 16, in the paragraph immediately ABOVE the section titled, "Own Unit."

Then that makes it actually harder to draw LOS to. Still doesn't make it an illegal model, regardless of being FW.

:: nods :: I know, just wanted to mention it. ^_^

**mugginns**

If dude is more interested in playing the same lists all the time in serious biz mode than expanding his game and seeing all that there is to see, there are plenty of players like that out there.

**notabot187**

No problem with a non standard model using codex rules. Hell you could show up with a coke can as a proxy as long as it wasn't a tourney and I would play you. The larger size and base isn't really an advantage (though isn't there a tyrant power that only effects models in base contact? Eh, its not that big a deal) The only time I actually gave somebody a hard time over non standard models is when he brought some dark elf stuff from a 3rd party company and was bragging on how much he saved (It was like 1-2 dollars a unit, not worth not having correct army, and the models didn't really even look better either). There is also a guy locally who plays at the other shop who has a "daemon prince" that is a standard marine with the wings from a night lord helmet clipped off and glued to his back. Its based on a monster base and he claims that is all legal and such. I won't play against it, and if I played it against it in a tourney I would ask the judge to have it removed from the table and replace with something the correct size. He claims its for fluff but he plays it for advantage (watched a few games).

**MrMoustaffa**

Ok, so as a newbie who is completely lost in this debate, this is what I'm hearing about FW units, please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Fielding them as cool looking versions of normal codex units = ok (aka, check out these elysian drop troops, I run them as normal Guardsmen, but dont they look cool?)

2. Fielding FW units with FW rules in a tourney is usually going to be illegal, unless rules specifically state otherwise.

3. Most people are likely to be cool with it IF you warn them ahead of time and ask for permission.

4. They're optional, and unless they're explicitly mentioned in a codex, probably going to be limited to friendly games.

Is this right or did I just completely miss the point of all this?

**Necroshea**

MrMoustaffa wrote:Ok, so as a newbie who is completely lost in this debate, this is what I'm hearing about FW units, please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Fielding them as cool looking versions of normal codex units = ok (aka, check out these elysian drop troops, I run them as normal Guardsmen, but dont they look cool?)

2. Fielding FW units with FW rules in a tourney is usually going to be illegal, unless rules specifically state otherwise.

3. Most people are likely to be cool with it IF you warn them ahead of time and ask for permission.

4. They're optional, and unless they're explicitly mentioned in a codex, probably going to be limited to friendly games.

Is this right or did I just completely miss the point of all this?

1. That's fine. The models are practically identical in size, and they're GW models.
2. I've been to a few tournies, and I've read up on more than a few tournies. None so far have allowed them. There are those that do, I've just never heard about them. It's safe to say don't bring FW units to a tourney unless you know they allow them.
3. Of course. People will put up with a lot of shortcomings (counts as, unpainted, base only, etc) if you simply ask them first. FW minis and rules are no different.
4. Yep

**Sonophos**

I take three super heavies with me to my club so if anyone wants to play a game with super heavies in I give them forst choice of mine if they don't have the equivelent themselves.

As for smaller tanks or squads I never object as they don't tend to unbalance a game and it's nice to see something new.

**akkados**

Hi, well if you have some of the forgeworld books like their apoc ones, it has a really nice feature that tells you what kind of of unit can fielded in a standard W40K or not. The Contemptor Dreadnought can infact be used i standard matches.

**tedurur**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tarkand wrote:
The Twin-Link Magna-Melta is a frighteningly accurate and effective weapon that can hurt anything. It's perfect to crack open a transport so that your disembarked terminator can kill the

It's a blast multi-melta with an 18" range. Guess what's better than that? A bog-standard multi-melta, found on every self-respecting Land Raider.

Tarkand wrote:
And with all that considered, the ram is worth 25pts less than a 'naked' Land Raider. About the only reason to take a LR over a Caestus, is that the Caetus cost a good 100$ more really.

Sorry, but 275 isn't 25 points less that 250.

For the bolded part. That is very much not true. a TL BS4 blast is very likely to not scatter. And if you are using it to target vehicles you can assume that it can scatter 1" in any direction while still being on target. which translates in to more than 75% chance of being on target. That said, the main advantage as I see it is the fact that you can tank shock pallies, nobs ect and then hit them with a large blast which causes ID.

That said, very few FW models are OP. The hades breaching drill being the largets fething mess there is. So I try to avoid those two or three clusterfeths and play against and with all other FW stuff

**Reeeen**

Just thought id add something, even though it looks like everything that needs saying, has been.

You see that link at the bottom of Games-workshops website, the one that says forgeworld??
OFFICIAL GW PRODUCTS!

I think as a courtesy you should allow your opponent to look at your rules, as I would expect them to let me check over their Codex rules. BUT i dont see why anyone should disallow them, they are sold by GW, the rulebooks for them can be bought in store. Here in England you can have them delivered to your store for pick-up.

**-Loki-**

Reeeen wrote:You see that link at the bottom of Games-workshops website, the one that says forgeworld??
OFFICIAL GW PRODUCTS!

That's not the issue. It's quite obvious that they're official 'models'. The rules are another story. There's actually an easy explaination about it, that just requires a little logical thinking.

The rulebook actually makes the distinction - the rulebook and codices are core rules. These are the rules you'll use every game, no question. Anything else is not part of the core rules, and thus you agree to use them with your opponent.

It's just like agreeing to play Cities of Death, Planet Strike, a Battle Missions game. Before the game, discuss it with your opponent, if necessary let them see the book so they can see what's going to be happening in the game.

**Reeeen**

I suppose you can't stop people from walking away from a game they don't want to play. lol

In my opinion all extra rules produced by GW are perfectly legal and fine.
I can understand the reasoning of putting them alongside Planetstrike and Cities of Death however.

As other people on the internet say,
Haters gonna Hate

**-Loki-**

It's not hate - it is, again, the fact that they're not core rules, thus not something people expect to play against. This is why you let them know before hand, and, if they ask to see the rules, let them see them.

Still, yeah, people will refuse to play for a cariety of reasons. In 3rd edition, my brother had an infantry horde guard army supported by a pair of Leman Russes. His friend flat out refused to play against the army because he thought two Leman Russes was cheesy. This was coming from a guy known for making the cheesiest lists possible.

If you're relying on pickup games with strangers, you'll always have problems with things like this. The best way to deal with it is be open, tell them beforehand, and have an alternate list prepared that does not use the Forgeworld models. That way if they say no, you can still get a game in, albeit without your shiny new toys.

**Bobthehero**

Or y'know, use them as count as?

Easy to do with Kriegers (except the whole veteran thing, Grenadiers are Krieg veteran, but also their stormtroopers), might be trickier with the rest of the model range.

**Reeeen**

Not to mention some of the Models are codex models or upgrades that GW didn't build.

**Hyd**

Reeeen wrote:I suppose you can't stop people from walking away from a game they don't want to play. lol

Nor can you stop them from being TFG...

Sure, you can refuse playing "unusual" things. I cannot see why on earth one would. That's just poor sportsmanship.

**daveNYC**

Panzerboy26 wrote:I've got a 1500pt list with 3 Land Raider Achilles. I've yet to field it in a tournament (my FLGS recently decided to allow 40k FW units provided you have both the book and the actual FW model into tournaments), but it's done very well in the games that I have fielded it in.

No one has complained about it, even though it is a fairly powerful list.

Man, isn't that the one that's borderline unkillable? I remember seeing a bit of the rules for that a while ago, scared the heck out of me.

Sexy model though.

**rigeld2**

Hyd wrote:Sure, you can refuse playing "unusual" things. I cannot see why on earth one would. That's just poor sportsmanship.

If it's just an unusual model I'm 99% fine with it (things like the a grot-sized mini being a counts-as Stompa I'd have a problem with - not that anyone in here is advocating doing that, just pointing it out).
If it's an unusual model with unusual rules (FW) I'm far more likely to decline a game - if the book is available, I'll likely play. If not, not a chance. I'm not going to play a game - for fun, because that's what this is - when I have to rely on the other person to correctly remember everything about the unit.

And me declining to play that game isn't poor sportsmanship - it's about me having a good time. Being on the other side of a "Oh yeah - he has a 2++ in assault" after I've already moved and rolled to hit isn't me having a good time. If the book is there, it's my fault as I should've seen it when I looked at the unit entry.

**Sunoccard**

daveNYC wrote:
Panzerboy26 wrote:I've got a 1500pt list with 3 Land Raider Achilles. I've yet to field it in a tournament (my FLGS recently decided to allow 40k FW units provided you have both the book and the actual FW model into tournaments), but it's done very well in the games that I have fielded it in.

No one has complained about it, even though it is a fairly powerful list.

Man, isn't that the one that's borderline unkillable? I remember seeing a bit of the rules for that a while ago, scared the heck out of me.

Sexy model though.

I'd Love to face that with a scarab list.

**kronk**

skwiff wrote:has any one here fielded a model from forgeworld in a standard 40k game, only for the other player to throw a hissy fit and rage quit from the game? I'm not talking about a major tornement here but say at a club friendly between two rival clubs or game workshops.

My Standard FW reply:

(A) My World

My gaming group allows all forgeworld, so long as the forgeworld has something along the lines of "___ army can bring this unit as a (Troop/Elite/Heavy/HQ) choice." We all know each other very well. Most of us have been friends for 10+ years. No super heavies or fliers in a standard game, though.

Anything goes in our Apoc games.

(B) Going to the game store for a pick up game.

If I don't know you, I would ask your permission before bringing a FW item to a pick-up game against you. I expect the same treatment and curtesy. I honestly can't see me telling you "no, you can't use forgeworld." Again, it's still optional so you need my permission the same as I need yours. No super heavies or fliers in a standard game, though.

(C) Tournaments

A TO can tell you to keep your FW stuff at home, so you had better ask ahead of time before you get your hopes up.

**Pundabaya**

Forgeworld isn't always the more expensive option, y'know.

Sternguard veterans are more expensive for 5 than Forgeworld variant armour Space Marines, all you need to do is scav up some guns... If you don't have spare bolters knocking around, you're not much of a Space Marine collector.

I'll always play against FW models. If I lose because they're overpowered cheese, then at least its more interesting than losing to regular GW overpowered cheese. I lose most times anyway, so its not a big deal.

**Byte**

MrMoustaffa wrote:Ok, so as a newbie who is completely lost in this debate, this is what I'm hearing about FW units, please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Fielding them as cool looking versions of normal codex units = ok (aka, check out these elysian drop troops, I run them as normal Guardsmen, but dont they look cool?)

2. Fielding FW units with FW rules in a tourney is usually going to be illegal, unless rules specifically state otherwise.

3. Most people are likely to be cool with it IF you warn them ahead of time and ask for permission.

4. They're optional, and unless they're explicitly mentioned in a codex, probably going to be limited to friendly games.

Is this right or did I just completely miss the point of all this?

I'm glad you worded this, because I couldn't get anybody to commit to an answer. Is it the models or the rules... resume crickets...

**-Loki-**

It's the rules, given that models they make for standard entires in codices (like using Elysians or DKoK for regular guardsmen) are always accepted. It's the unit entires and army lists they make themselves that people take issue over.

**Pouncey**

Pundabaya wrote:Forgeworld isn't always the more expensive option, y'know.

Sternguard veterans are more expensive for 5 than Forgeworld variant armour Space Marines, all you need to do is scav up some guns... If you don't have spare bolters knocking around, you're not much of a Space Marine collector.

I'll always play against FW models. If I lose because they're overpowered cheese, then at least its more interesting than losing to regular GW overpowered cheese. I lose most times anyway, so its not a big deal.

I used 2 of the Dark Angels upgrade sprues, plus 10 25mm bases I ordered for some reason - I may not have sorted through my bitz box by then, where I found a fethload of bases... and about 80 shootas and accompanying arms...

They're the only models in my army which have that look, so they're pretty distinguishable. And the 10 models, even including the 10 bases I bought, cost about 10 Canadian dollars less than a single box of 5 Sternguard would have. Plus, they're plastic, so I don't have to worry about Finecast at all. ^_^

Each sprue came with 5 bodies, 5 bolters with appropriate arms, enough heads, enough shoulderpads - admittedly with some dark angels iconography on half of them, the other half have terminator honors - and a buttload of extra parts - including a nifty power mace and a cool combat shield I might use at some point to make a compan.... FETH! When I was making those dragon Marines last night, I could've made a company champion! DAMN IT! Oh well, at least I have the parts, though I don't want to butcher any of the Lizardmen I already built - one of the boxes of Saurus Warriors I built came with an extra pair of sprues, but no extra bases, so I didn't build em.

The Dark Angels iconography didn't matter too much to me, for reasons that sound stupid when I start to type out an explanation. It involves fluff, the same fluff that made me feel fine with using a Space Wolves Pack box to make Honor Guard. In any case, the iconography is plastic, so it's easier to remove than it would be if the models were metal.