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All is fair in love and war.

I forgot about the PDF, what battles did they fight in anyway.

I went back and checker. I was a little off. You can have an optimized stealth group for 12 FW. You can have an armored interdiction cadre for less. You can't have a battlesuit team by them selves they come in groups of 4 teams.

nomotog wrote:All is fair in love and war.

Sure it is.

And while we're talking about the weight of numbers: the only time the Tau committed a large number of their forces to an operation was the hydroplant assault against the Elysians.
Why?
Because the Tau knew that if it came to a slugging match over a critical juncture, their number was up--no matter how much air superiority they have.

I forgot about the PDF, what battles did they fight in anyway.

Most of the ones in the city? The PDF also had control of the orbital defense batteries and air defense batteries.

I went back and checker. I was a little off. You can have an optimized stealth group for 12 FW. You can have an armored interdiction cadre for less. You can't have a battlesuit team by them selves they come in groups of 4 teams.

So either way, you cannot have a "regiment of 4 men". You can have small groups of battlesuits, but not the actual Fire Warriors.

Taros:
No knock-down drag outs were fought on Taros because the Tau don't fight that way. The Tau war doctrine is all about the right amount of force applied at the right time. Patient Hunter/ Killing Blow; it's in fluff (codex). Why play by the IoM's rules when you can control the battlefield?

Ever seen a farsight bomb? Suit units are neither rare nor difficult to produce. The codex says that every firewarrior that lives a certain number of years in service has the opportunity to become a suit pilot; some don't, some aren't viable candidates, some stay with their unit and some go on to be a member of an Ethereal Honor Guard. But even taking this into account, the numbers of suits in fluff would be quite large.

Thread:
The problem with these threads is that there are a number of people on this board that hate the Tau (a made-up faction in a made-up universe).

The OP didn't create this thread for them to come in and have the usual argument about the usual things and how 1 space marine can single handedly wipe out the whole universe and still have time to stop for lunch on the way to the Eye of Terror. He/She asked a question for fluff on a campaign that he/she's writing. Coa had to come in and stir up the usual Tau vs. IoM nonsense instead of just answering the question and staying on topic.

It annoys me that as a Tau player I can't read a single thread about Tau without seeing Coa and 1Hadq come in and start a fight. We all get that you don't like the Tau faction and you don't like people that play Tau; do you really need to come in and derail every thread that even mentions Tau?

Sorry to be off-topic.
/rant

agnosto wrote:Taros:
No knock-down drag outs were fought on Taros because the Tau don't fight that way. The Tau war doctrine is all about the right amount of force applied at the right time. Patient Hunter/ Killing Blow; it's in fluff (codex). Why play by the IoM's rules when you can control the battlefield?

Ever seen a farsight bomb? Suit units are neither rare nor difficult to produce. The codex says that every firewarrior that lives a certain number of years in service has the opportunity to become a suit pilot; some don't, some aren't viable candidates, some stay with their unit and some go on to be a member of an Ethereal Honor Guard. But even taking this into account, the numbers of suits in fluff would be quite large.

Thread:
The problem with these threads is that there are a number of people on this board that hate the Tau (a made-up faction in a made-up universe).

The OP didn't create this thread for them to come in and have the usual argument about the usual things and how 1 space marine can single handedly wipe out the whole universe and still have time to stop for lunch on the way to the Eye of Terror. He/She asked a question for fluff on a campaign that he/she's writing. Coa had to come in and stir up the usual Tau vs. IoM nonsense instead of just answering the question and staying on topic.

It annoys me that as a Tau player I can't read a single thread about Tau without seeing Coa and 1Hadq come in and start a fight. We all get that you don't like the Tau faction and you don't like people that play Tau; do you really need to come in and derail every thread that even mentions Tau?

Sorry to be off-topic.
/rant

I only joined last month, and i've noticed the same thing. There doesn't seem to be any actual proof of anything they say most of the time, or twist things completely to work in their favour. No idea why people seem to hate the Tau so much.

Rules wise yes, fluff wise no. ( remember that rules serve to balance the army's on table, otherwise Astartes would be unstoppable )

That does not support the pulse rifle being weaker. The stats in the game are relative to how powerful they are in the fluff, it's not going to have better stats on tabletop but be worse in fluff. Also remember it's not just Space Marines who get Bolt weapons in TableTop.

agnosto wrote:Taros:
No knock-down drag outs were fought on Taros because the Tau don't fight that way. The Tau war doctrine is all about the right amount of force applied at the right time. Patient Hunter/ Killing Blow; it's in fluff (codex). Why play by the IoM's rules when you can control the battlefield?

Which still means that the number of Imperial troops present on the planet means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, now doesn't it?

I know the Tau "don't fight that way". The Imperium, however, does.
The weight of numbers means nothing when those numbers cannot be put to effect.

I should also add that the Imperium isn't just about weight of numbers. Cadian regiments, Elysian regiments, and more all utilize "the right amount of force applied at the right time" as well. We just do not see that portrayed on the tabletop because people don't want to see that. They want to see the "human wave" tactics.

Ever seen a farsight bomb? Suit units are neither rare nor difficult to produce. The codex says that every firewarrior that lives a certain number of years in service has the opportunity to become a suit pilot; some don't, some aren't viable candidates, some stay with their unit and some go on to be a member of an Ethereal Honor Guard. But even taking this into account, the numbers of suits in fluff would be quite large.

So now you're using the tabletop as evidence of fluff?

Suits, in the fluff, actually ARE difficult to produce. They actually ARE relatively rare. They're not Dreadnought or Terminator levels of rare, but they're not exactly common.
If suits were common, every Fire Warrior would be equipped with one.

Thread:
The problem with these threads is that there are a number of people on this board that hate the Tau (a made-up faction in a made-up universe).

The OP didn't create this thread for them to come in and have the usual argument about the usual things and how 1 space marine can single handedly wipe out the whole universe and still have time to stop for lunch on the way to the Eye of Terror. He/She asked a question for fluff on a campaign that he/she's writing. Coa had to come in and stir up the usual Tau vs. IoM nonsense instead of just answering the question and staying on topic.

Then report him.
It's really that simple.

As per the topic though, we don't have enough information about human/Tau tech interactions to make any informed statements. The closest is we had a piece about the Spyrer hunting-rigs being Tau engineered.

It annoys me that as a Tau player I can't read a single thread about Tau without seeing Coa and 1Hadq come in and start a fight. We all get that you don't like the Tau faction and you don't like people that play Tau; do you really need to come in and derail every thread that even mentions Tau?

Sorry to be off-topic.
/rant

Report them. I know you might think it silly, but it's the only way to get the message across that it will not be tolerated.

Kanluwen wrote:

Suits, in the fluff, actually ARE difficult to produce. They actually ARE relatively rare. They're not Dreadnought or Terminator levels of rare, but they're not exactly common.
If suits were common, every Fire Warrior would be equipped with one.
[

Where does it say in fluff they are difficult to produce? They are fairly common as they are the main combat method for Tau veterans. They certainly would not equip all Fire Warriors with them, it's not worth giving untrained new Firewarriors a Battlesuit as they will not know how to use it properly and have not earned it. You don't see entire Guardsmen regiments going round in full carapace armour using hellguns or hotshot lasguns outside of Stormtrooper/Elite regiments even though they are common.

yes my fellow Tau enthusiasts, this is the state of Tau discussion on Dakka, ( and why I had placed a self imposed moritorium on responding in these threads) certain individuals always post the same rhetoric about the same points in every Tau oriented thread regardless if its about weapons or cooking equipment.

But as to the fluff basics of the Pulse rifles..its actually a tiny plasma pulse, as per IA:3

The Weapon generates a induction field, which is used to propel a particle.
This particle reacts to the field by breaking down into a plasma state ( refered to as a pulse )

pg : 80

and XV based suits are limited on a standard issue basis, but can be concentrated and massed for operations, such is the inherent fluid command and logistics structure of the Tau Cadre system.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Suits, in the fluff, actually ARE difficult to produce. They actually ARE relatively rare. They're not Dreadnought or Terminator levels of rare, but they're not exactly common.
If suits were common, every Fire Warrior would be equipped with one.

Where does it say in fluff they are difficult to produce?

Production is something which has multiple stages. It requires resources.

The Tau Empire has finite resources. This is the biggest problem they have. They do not have the resources to mass-scale produce them and continue the research they do.

They are fairly common as they are the main combat method for Tau veterans. They certainly would not equip all Fire Warriors with them, it's not worth giving untrained new Firewarriors a Battlesuit as they will not know how to use it properly and have not earned it.

I'm treading very carefully here, but consider this.

"Veterancy" for Tau is 8 years of service. That's absolutely nothing for the "hardcore" Guard regiments like the Krieg or Cadians or even the Elysians. It's about 5-6 years for them to go from what's considered a "recruit"/"conscript" to a full Trooper.
Add to it that those Guardsmen are going to see far more actual combat than a Fire Warrior of the equivalent age, and you'll see why people rank Guardsmen a smidge higher than Fire Warriors in terms of combat potency.

That doesn't mean "Fire Warriors are bad!". It means that there's a gap between the two. It's like comparing a regular infantryman to a Special Forces veteran.

You don't see entire Guardsmen regiments going round in full carapace armour using hellguns or hotshot lasguns outside of Stormtrooper/Elite regiments even though they are common.

Carapace armor you do see on "entire Guardsmen regiments" actually.

Hellguns aren't issued en masse for the same reason as Crisis Suits and Railrifles: they require higher levels of maintaining for diminishing returns.

agnosto wrote:

Thread:
The problem with these threads is that there are a number of people on this board that hate the Tau (a made-up faction in a made-up universe).

It annoys me that as a Tau player I can't read a single thread about Tau without seeing Coa and 1Hadq come in and start a fight. We all get that you don't like the Tau faction and you don't like people that play Tau; do you really need to come in and derail every thread that even mentions Tau?

Sorry to be off-topic.
/rant

Isn't it nice to be mentioned?
If there is a REAL problem, tell me.

But I doubt it. The issue is and stays:
- no matter how hard you try, sooner or later a fan boy of the blue grey faction chimes in, gets angry it isn't about how awesome his choice of gw crack is and starts to piss on another fictional group.
- next step is the usual response,which adapts to the tone.
- then those super nice fans who can't be bothered to reply to the OP in the first place step in to tell everyone why they are soo sad.

Maybe just for once: don't reply to someone if you are not interested. There is no way to keep a thread nice if all you see is idiotic
" but we have this and this and this.." like youre in a GW store....

Post history in this thread:

My first post here: ( 6th and ON topic )
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/423280.page#3793949
Second one: ( 9th and a reply to a misconception )
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/423280.page#3794172
Third at: ( 14th and an attempt to stay with "interaction" instead of the topic change from another poster )
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/423280.page#3794299
Then 60 posts without ME. See? I didn't bother to correct you guys, but instead of being happy to get away with your interpretation, you feel its neccessary to throw out false accusations?

If you dared to look, I was ON topic. Why don't you go and criticize those who veered off?

Mentlegen324 wrote:
I only joined last month, and i've noticed the same thing. There doesn't seem to be any actual proof of anything they say most of the time, or twist things completely to work in their favour. No idea why people seem to hate the Tau so much.

Got any proof for this "hate" ?

May I suggest to get YOUR facts straight? Points at Farsight. Points at the person giving YOU the source for it. And I know you have edited your post afterwards, which I don't mind but still to run with " has no proof" ? Aren't there all these 'in the know' people to help you out?
Wait. They won't.
So please go forth and move this off topic to the same idiotic " my dudes have the bestest tech" instead of the original subject.
Just refrain from things like "user x" has twisted this and that without evidence.
Like Kan said, there is always the triangle of friendship.

nomotog wrote:You know at taros the tau where outnumbered over 10 to 1. Not even counting the SM or titans. They still won, so dose that mean that one FW is = 10 guardsmen. And if one SM is also = 10 guards men. Something to think about.

To Guard defense, they didn't outnumber the Tau 10 to 1. Krieg Regiment never arrived and Briomock was destroyed before it could land at all.
On the ground it was water and supply shortage that eventually led to Guard defeat. And if someone got outnumbered on Taros it was Elysians at refinery.

Got any proof for this "hate" ?

May I suggest to get YOUR facts straight? Points at Farsight. Points at the person giving YOU the source for it. And I know you have edited your post afterwards, which I don't mind but still to run with " has no proof" ? Aren't there all these 'in the know' people to help you out?
Wait. They won't.
So please go forth and move this off topic to the same idiotic " my dudes have the bestest tech" instead of the original subject.
Just refrain from things like "user x" has twisted this and that without evidence.
Like Kan said, there is always the triangle of friendship.

I'll just PM you it instead of going off-topic.

Kanluwen wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Suits, in the fluff, actually ARE difficult to produce. They actually ARE relatively rare. They're not Dreadnought or Terminator levels of rare, but they're not exactly common.
If suits were common, every Fire Warrior would be equipped with one.

Where does it say in fluff they are difficult to produce?

Production is something which has multiple stages. It requires resources.

The Tau Empire has finite resources. This is the biggest problem they have. They do not have the resources to mass-scale produce them and continue the research they do.

They are fairly common as they are the main combat method for Tau veterans. They certainly would not equip all Fire Warriors with them, it's not worth giving untrained new Firewarriors a Battlesuit as they will not know how to use it properly and have not earned it.

I'm treading very carefully here, but consider this.

"Veterancy" for Tau is 8 years of service. That's absolutely nothing for the "hardcore" Guard regiments like the Krieg or Cadians or even the Elysians. It's about 5-6 years for them to go from what's considered a "recruit"/"conscript" to a full Trooper.
Add to it that those Guardsmen are going to see far more actual combat than a Fire Warrior of the equivalent age, and you'll see why people rank Guardsmen a smidge higher than Fire Warriors in terms of combat potency.

That doesn't mean "Fire Warriors are bad!". It means that there's a gap between the two. It's like comparing a regular infantryman to a Special Forces veteran.

You don't see entire Guardsmen regiments going round in full carapace armour using hellguns or hotshot lasguns outside of Stormtrooper/Elite regiments even though they are common.

Carapace armor you do see on "entire Guardsmen regiments" actually.

Hellguns aren't issued en masse for the same reason as Crisis Suits and Railrifles: they require higher levels of maintaining for diminishing returns.

Carapace armour is seen on entire regiments, but not Hellguns/hotshots and carapace armour at the same time. The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training, but it's real experience they lack - same with the Air Caste pilots. While 5-6 years might be a short amount of time for a guardsman, Tau do not live as long as humans.

Now to my defense it is true that every time I see a thread related to Tau my stomach hurt because I know how it will proceed. And to point out that it is always that Tau players who start talking to the OP about how Tau tech is pure awesomeness, I am just trying to balance things and then Railguns came to order then battlesuits then Taros...
Maybe it is for the best if I keep my mouth shut and let Tau players enjoy their fantasy.

As for topic, we were kind off on topic because we talked about technology with is the part of OP question. And I think someone answered that Tau would not use Imperial tech at all, but their own. While they would give some of their own technology in trade relationships.

Carapace armour is seen on entire regiments, but not Hellguns/hotshots and carapace armour at the same time.

There's a reason for that. I even gave it in my post.

Hellguns require a lot more maintaining. It's the same reason that the Tau do not issue Crisis Suits or Railrifles to every single Fire Warrior.

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

but it's real experience they lack - same with the Air Caste pilots. While 5-6 years might be a short amount of time for a guardsman, Tau do not live as long as humans.

Which is my biggest point. The Fire Warriors can be as well-equipped and trained as you want them to be: it won't matter one lick in actual combat. Farsight's troops are the exception, not necessarily the rule.

Kanluwen wrote:

Carapace armour is seen on entire regiments, but not Hellguns/hotshots and carapace armour at the same time.

There's a reason for that. I even gave it in my post.

Hellguns require a lot more maintaining. It's the same reason that the Tau do not issue Crisis Suits or Railrifles to every single Fire Warrior.

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

but it's real experience they lack - same with the Air Caste pilots. While 5-6 years might be a short amount of time for a guardsman, Tau do not live as long as humans.

Which is my biggest point. The Fire Warriors can be as well-equipped and trained as you want them to be: it won't matter one lick in actual combat. Farsight's troops are the exception, not necessarily the rule.

I know you pointed out the reason, i was just saying you don't see both like i origionally said

Not sure what could be defined as an average Guardsman, but ones such as Cadians or DKoK are likely to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of training.

Brother Coa wrote:Now to my defense it is true that every time I see a thread related to Tau my stomach hurt because I know how it will proceed. And to point out that it is always that Tau players who start talking to the OP about how Tau tech is pure awesomeness, I am just trying to balance things and then Railguns came to order then battlesuits then Taros...
Maybe it is for the best if I keep my mouth shut and let Tau players enjoy their fantasy.

As for topic, we were kind off on topic because we talked about technology with is the part of OP question. And I think someone answered that Tau would not use Imperial tech at all, but their own. While they would give some of their own technology in trade relationships.

Tau definately do not have pure awesomeness tech. In comparasion to the imperial equivalents, in many cases it would be more advanced or efficient - but that does not mean it is better.

Kanluwen wrote:

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

This is a very important question if you want to compare Guard with something.
Not every Guardsman in the galaxy is trained the same, you must note some for us to compare.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Carapace armour is seen on entire regiments, but not Hellguns/hotshots and carapace armour at the same time.

There's a reason for that. I even gave it in my post.

Hellguns require a lot more maintaining. It's the same reason that the Tau do not issue Crisis Suits or Railrifles to every single Fire Warrior.

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

but it's real experience they lack - same with the Air Caste pilots. While 5-6 years might be a short amount of time for a guardsman, Tau do not live as long as humans.

Which is my biggest point. The Fire Warriors can be as well-equipped and trained as you want them to be: it won't matter one lick in actual combat. Farsight's troops are the exception, not necessarily the rule.

I know you pointed out the reason, i was just saying you don't see both like i origionally said

And I'm pointing out that, again, there's a reason. It's not a question of resources or production.

It's a question of logistics. Hellguns can break down in the field.

Not sure what could be defined as an average Guardsman, but ones such as Cadians or DKoK are likely to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of training.

Except the reason they're on the higher end of the scale for training is because of experience.
It's a vicious cycle.

How is something that is more advanced or efficient not better. what standers are you going by?

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

This is a very important question if you want to compare Guard with something.
Not every Guardsman in the galaxy is trained the same, you must note some for us to compare.

Considering Cadia is a fortress world, and they all must serve for atleast 4 years and would be well trained, Cadians are probably better than an 'average Guardsman' as most do not come from fortress or highly militarized worlds.

nomotog wrote:How is something that is more advanced or efficient not better. what standers are you going by?

As an example, the Tau Custodian battleship could be considered more advanced than many imperial ships, but that doesn't make it better. It has a Grand Cruiser's hull value instead of a battleships. In regards to the efficiency, something might be better at the job it does, but that does not make it more advanced technologically.

nomotog wrote:How is something that is more advanced or efficient not better.

You want a real life comparrison?

German Tiger Tank and Soviet T-34, Battle at Kursk.
Who won?

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:How is something that is more advanced or efficient not better.

You want a real life comparrison?

German Tiger Tank and Soviet T-34, Battle at Kursk.
Who won?

I don't know.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Considering Cadia is a fortress world, and they all must serve for atleast 4 years and would be well trained, Cadians are probably better than an 'average Guardsman' as most do not come from fortress or highly militarized worlds.

Most Guardsmen start as PDF, serving several years in it. And then get send of to the galaxy.
I would say that Tau Fire Warriors and "average Guardsman" are on the same level when it comes to training, when it comes to equipment FW is far better while Guardsman is more practical. In the end it all depends on how the men are led into battle and Tau are usually the ones who have better commanders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
I don't know.

You are joking, right?

Brother Coa wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Considering Cadia is a fortress world, and they all must serve for atleast 4 years and would be well trained, Cadians are probably better than an 'average Guardsman' as most do not come from fortress or highly militarized worlds.

Most Guardsmen start as PDF, serving several years in it. And then get send of to the galaxy.
I would say that Tau Fire Warriors and "average Guardsman" are on the same level when it comes to training, when it comes to equipment FW is far better while Guardsman is more practical. In the end it all depends on how the men are led into battle and Tau are usually the ones who have better commanders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
I don't know.

You are joking, right?

You can't just throw tank and battle names at people and expect them to understand what you mean. The only thing I know about the two tanks is that the Germans totally dominated any Russian tank in quality and quantity. But I don't think that is what you where going for

Oh different FW have different training and temperaments like guard do.

Brother Coa wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Considering Cadia is a fortress world, and they all must serve for atleast 4 years and would be well trained, Cadians are probably better than an 'average Guardsman' as most do not come from fortress or highly militarized worlds.

Most Guardsmen start as PDF, serving several years in it. And then get send of to the galaxy.
I would say that Tau Fire Warriors and "average Guardsman" are on the same level when it comes to training, when it comes to equipment FW is far better while Guardsman is more practical. In the end it all depends on how the men are led into battle and Tau are usually the ones who have better commanders.

As Tau are in their caste for the entire life, and that caste is their only purpose, they would be trained from a young age and constantly, unlike guardsman unless they come from a highly militarized world. In terms of training, i'd say Tau are better, in terms of experiance, Guardsman are better (Unless it's something like a conscript)

Many Guardsman are picked from the best of the PDF, and fluff depicts the PDF as near-useless, so that's not really saying much.

No, someone obviously didn't read their history...

Ah well...The Battle of Kursk was fought in August of 1943 and it is the biggest tank battle in history of Mankind. Germans had 2,700 tanks while Soviets had 3,600 tanks.

The point is that German tanks were composed of Tiger and Panther tanks, one of the best tanks ever made while Soviets had their T-34's. According to your logic the Germans should have won, but it was not like that. T-34 had smaller gun and had to get close to fire, but it's advantage was it's armor - it was build under an angle and some of the 88 tank shells actually bounced off it's armor rather then penetrating it. Tiger tanks were slower then T-34 and most of them never had a chance to retreat.

Tiger even if it's better in all things then Soviet T-34 was no matched for it in this battle. And that's my point.

Brother Coa wrote:Now to my defense it is true that every time I see a thread related to Tau my stomach hurt because I know how it will proceed. And to point out that it is always that Tau players who start talking to the OP about how Tau tech is pure awesomeness, I am just trying to balance things and then Railguns came to order then battlesuits then Taros...
Maybe it is for the best if I keep my mouth shut and let Tau players enjoy their fantasy.

As for topic, we were kind off on topic because we talked about technology with is the part of OP question. And I think someone answered that Tau would not use Imperial tech at all, but their own. While they would give some of their own technology in trade relationships.

I'm just gonna go ahead now.

And that is not wargaming photo.
Therefore your comment is invalid.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
As Tau are in their caste for the entire life, and that caste is their only purpose, they would be trained from a young age and constantly, unlike guardsman unless they come from a highly militarized world. In terms of training, i'd say Tau are better, in terms of experiance, Guardsman are better (Unless it's something like a conscript)

Tau might be in their caste for their entire life, but the PDF is as well a big option for troops to go in "for life". On many high population worlds with few prospects, the PDF is a way for people to make a better life for themselves.

Many Guardsman are picked from the best of the PDF, and fluff depicts the PDF as near-useless, so that's not really saying much.

Of course the fluff depicts the PDF as "near-useless".

They're always facing things like Ork Waaghs!, Hive Fleets, or Tau invasion(my bad: "Diplomatic Turnover Services") forces. They're outclassed.

You don't expect a militia to be able to hold off a military. They'll be able to punch back, but it sure isn't going to be a victory.

Brother Coa wrote:No, someone obviously didn't read their history...

Ah well...The Battle of Kursk was fought in August of 1943 and it is the biggest tank battle in history of Mankind. Germans had 2,700 tanks while Soviets had 3,600 tanks.

The point is that German tanks were composed of Tiger and Panther tanks, one of the best tanks ever made while Soviets had their T-34's. According to your logic the Germans should have won, but it was not like that. T-34 had smaller gun and had to get close to fire, but it's advantage was it's armor - it was build under an angle and some of the 88 tank shells actually bounced off it's armor rather then penetrating it. Tiger tanks were slower then T-34 and most of them never had a chance to retreat.

Tiger even if it's better in all things then Soviet T-34 was no matched for it in this battle. And that's my point.

OK, but I am having a hard time seeing how this relates to the core question. That was "How can something be more advance or efficient and not be better." This story dosen't answer that. It gives a good example on how better dosen't always win, but dosen't answer the root question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
You don't expect a militia to be able to hold off a military. They'll be able to punch back, but it sure isn't going to be a victory.

Gosh man your an American you should know better.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
You don't expect a militia to be able to hold off a military. They'll be able to punch back, but it sure isn't going to be a victory.

Gosh man your an American you should know better.

And as a fellow American, you should know that the militias were not untested troops. They were volunteers who'd had experience fighting for the British in wars against the Native American tribes, and adapted the tactics of the Native Americans against the British.

But that's wildly off topic.

nomotog wrote:
OK, but I am having a hard time seeing how this relates to the core question. That was "How can something be more advance or efficient and not be better." This story dosen't answer that. It gives a good example on how better dosen't always win, but dosen't answer the root question.

And here is your answer. Just because something is better doesn't automatically meant that it will always win over something less advanced and efficient. Hence the Orks are perfect example for that.