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Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
OK, but I am having a hard time seeing how this relates to the core question. That was "How can something be more advance or efficient and not be better." This story dosen't answer that. It gives a good example on how better dosen't always win, but dosen't answer the root question.

And here is your answer. Just because something is better doesn't automatically meant that it will always win over something less advanced and efficient. Hence the Orks are perfect example for that.

Your still missing my question.

I just answered your question.
I don't know what do you want to know?

@All:

These threads are open to all Dakka users: those who love the Tau as well as those who despise them. Put it another, more accurate way: those who emphasize the abilities of the Tau as well as those who emphasize their weaknesses.

Arguing a point is not against our site rules. Personal attacks are.

Let me just add, as a user rather than as a mod, that "you just hate what I like" is not a response to a criticism based in canonical fluff.

Holding a Master's Degree in History I feel I should probably speak up against the blatant misinterpretations and erroneous applications of history in this thread.

Instead I'll move back to the original topic.

The Tau view Imperial tech as antiquated and outdated because they don't understand the rather arcane nature of things like Machine Spirits and Warp based technologies that are frequently found in human tech.

From a technical standpoint, the Tau have generally gotten results as good or better than the Imperium without resorting to the more mystical aspects of human technology. Even Genetor Santiago acknowledges this in his report (Codex: Tau Empire page 20).

Of course the difference in Imperium and Tau philosophies mean that direct equivalents to a lot of Imperial items are not made by the Tau and vce versa (ie infantry special weapons, power armour for basic troops, hover tanks, titans, artificial intelligence drones, etc don't have a direct equivalent on the other side of the fence).

Now, if we can get away from the Inquisition screaming "Heresy" and taking all the Tau tech and killing everyone who uses it for a moment (possible on a shared human/tau colony world, probably a new expansion by the Tau Empire) we can get some interesting interactions going.

1) Humans, unless they have had the opportunity to acclimatize to the nature of Tau technology would likely be very disturbed by it. It doesn't work in ways that they understand and the controls involve little praying or ritual. Instead it is simple push button, flip lever or issue voice commands (once programmed).

2) Tau will have a lot of problems using human technology. Why? because their brains just don't interact with the psychic phenomena associated with it properly. So while Tau may be able to use human devices, they will do so in only a partially functional way and can't fix them when they quickly break down.

So what you'll end up with is neither side really trusting the others technology. The humans not liking the looks and feel of Tau technology (though not arguing with the results) and the Tau not believing the human's technology is reliable or as effective as it's supposed to be.

I don't think the "Machine Spirit" possesses any kind of psychic or metaphysical reality. IIRC, it's a deliberate misunderstanding -- over millennia -- of rudimentary AI (AI on par with what the computer you are currently using). It was extrapolated from there to other machines as even more technological know-how was lost. I don't think any Guardsman believes he must utter a prayer for his lasgun to fire. He might, however, believe that such a prayer might help him be more brave -- and that's something the Tau can probably relate to, even if they don't "pray that way," /Soft Cell reference

Not another Coa versus the Tau thread.

Defending the Mankind as always against the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Ave Imperator!!!

I bet this is Coa´s face right now.

I can't really say because I can't see it under the helmet.

Stay on-topic please.

I have a question regarding OP question: why didn't the Tau tried to reverse engineered Imperial technology? Seems odd for a race that of all others understand how it's technology work.

The Tau find human tech insuperior. Like humans find Tau tech insuperior.

Brother Coa wrote:I have a question regarding OP question: why didn't the Tau tried to reverse engineered Imperial technology? Seems odd for a race that of all others understand how it's technology work.

They do reverse engineer things, that's how they made a Warp-drive in the first place - a ship of some sort crashed near them.

The thing is, what Imperial tech (That the Tau have likely got their hands on) would actually be worth them reverse engineering? There isn't really anything the Imperium uses that they could get their hands on equipment, that the Tau really need.

The Tau don't reverse engineer a lot of Imperium Tech for the following reasons:

1) A lot of technology the Imperium has the Tau see no use for due to philosophical differences between the way the Tau do things and the way the imperium do things.

2) In many of the situations in which the Tau and the Imperium use tech to the same end the Tau tech is already equal to or superior to the Imperial equivalent

3) In the cases that the Imperium tech is something they would actually be interested in and is notably superior to the Tau tech, the Tau have problems understanding technology that requires the belief (and low level pyschic power) of a human mind to function. As a result they dismiss it as crude and inferior and are unable to learn accurate lessons from the device.

So the end result is that in most cases, Imperium tech in Tau hands becomes a situation of either don't want it or can't get it to work right/the same way.

Jefffar wrote:The Tau don't reverse engineer a lot of Imperium Tech for the following reasons:

1) A lot of technology the Imperium has the Tau see no use for due to philosophical differences between the way the Tau do things and the way the imperium do things.

This has no basis in anything published.

2) In many of the situations in which the Tau and the Imperium use tech to the same end the Tau tech is already equal to or superior to the Imperial equivalent

Not true, but if you say so.

There's a great amount of Imperial tech which is "superior" to Tau tech. The difference is, however, that it requires a knowledge that the Imperium itself does not have--much less the Tau.

3) In the cases that the Imperium tech is something they would actually be interested in and is notably superior to the Tau tech, the Tau have problems understanding technology that requires the belief (and low level pyschic power) of a human mind to function. As a result they dismiss it as crude and inferior and are unable to learn accurate lessons from the device.

You've confused humans with Orks, it seems.

What dose the IoM have that the tau would want? No one mention warp drives we all know about the warp drive debate.

nomotog wrote:What dose the IoM have that the tau would want? No one mention warp drives we all know about the warp drive debate.

So no one mention the single most important thing which distinguishes the Imperium from the Tau?

Warp drives are pretty dang important. They're what make the Imperium of Man a galaxy-spanning empire, and the lack of them is what makes the Tau Empire a tiny chunk of space.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:What dose the IoM have that the tau would want? No one mention warp drives we all know about the warp drive debate.

So no one mention the single most important thing which distinguishes the Imperium from the Tau?

Warp drives are pretty dang important. They're what make the Imperium of Man a galaxy-spanning empire, and the lack of them is what makes the Tau Empire a tiny chunk of space.

That is all true, but I bloody know all that. We have had massive threads talking and debating about tau warp travel. There is nothing left to lean on that topic. I'm wondering about the other stuff.

Kanluwen wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau don't reverse engineer a lot of Imperium Tech for the following reasons:

1) A lot of technology the Imperium has the Tau see no use for due to philosophical differences between the way the Tau do things and the way the imperium do things.

This has no basis in anything published.

Untrue. The Tau as a matter of doctrine do not use infantry heavy weapons, super heavy tanks or titans. They have the technology to build these things, but choose not to. The Tau Codex specifically discusses the doctrinal decision not to use infantry heavy weapons on page 30, I will try to find a citation for the super heavies and the titans.

2) In many of the situations in which the Tau and the Imperium use tech to the same end the Tau tech is already equal to or superior to the Imperial equivalent

Not true, but if you say so.

There's a great amount of Imperial tech which is "superior" to Tau tech. The difference is, however, that it requires a knowledge that the Imperium itself does not have--much less the Tau.

Why would the Tau take a Lasgun or a Bolter over a Pulse Rifle? The Pulse Rifle has longer range, does more damage.
Why would the Tau take a Sniper Rifle over a Rail Rifle? The Rail Rile is more likely to wound all the most commonly encountered targets on the battlefield, a has superior armour penetration and is better against light vehicles.
Why would the Tau take Flak Armour over their own body Armour? Their Body Armour offers superior protection.
Why would the Tau take a Smoke Launcher over a Disruption Pod? The Smoke Launcher can only be used once and prevents the tank from shooting.
Why would the Tau take a Machine Spirit over a Multi-Tracker? The Multi-Tracker allows the vehicle to fire more weapons.
Why would the Tau take a Jump Pack over a Jet Pack? The Jump Pack has to shut down after every short flight and doesn't help stabilize weapons systems.

and so on.

I will concede that not every place where the Tau and the Imperium use their technogy to do the same thing the Tau do it better, but that was never my point anyway. My point is that a lot of the time the Tau rightly view their tech as superior.

3) In the cases that the Imperium tech is something they would actually be interested in and is notably superior to the Tau tech, the Tau have problems understanding technology that requires the belief (and low level pyschic power) of a human mind to function. As a result they dismiss it as crude and inferior and are unable to learn accurate lessons from the device.

You've confused humans with Orks, it seems.

Jefffar wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau don't reverse engineer a lot of Imperium Tech for the following reasons:

1) A lot of technology the Imperium has the Tau see no use for due to philosophical differences between the way the Tau do things and the way the imperium do things.

This has no basis in anything published.

Untrue. The Tau as a matter of doctrine do not use infantry heavy weapons, super heavy tanks or titans. They have the technology to build these things, but choose not to. The Tau Codex specifically discusses the doctrinal decision not to use infantry heavy weapons on page 30, I will try to find a citation for the super heavies and the titans.

Except you're talking about philosophical differences, not strategic.

2) In many of the situations in which the Tau and the Imperium use tech to the same end the Tau tech is already equal to or superior to the Imperial equivalent

Not true, but if you say so.

There's a great amount of Imperial tech which is "superior" to Tau tech. The difference is, however, that it requires a knowledge that the Imperium itself does not have--much less the Tau.

Why would the Tau take a Lasgun or a Bolter over a Pulse Rifle? The Pulse Rifle has longer range, does more damage.

You're lumping two very unlike things into one comparative category.
To simplify it:
The bolter has several advantages over the pulse rifle. The biggest advantage is that they can be outfitted with variable ammunition types making them far more effective based upon the target engagement. The fact that it's a solid projectile means that one particular foe(Tyranids) also cannot adapt a counter to it like they can energy weapons.
The Lasgun has advantages as well. It requires very little in the way of a logistical train to keep the troops supplied. If necessary, the troops can toss the energy packs into a fire and let them recharge that way.
We have nothing suggesting that the pulse rifle can do anything of that nature. For the Imperium, the Lasgun is a clear choice for the Imperial Guard as it cuts down on logistics and increases the fight time a Guard unit has available to it.

Why would the Tau take a Sniper Rifle over a Rail Rifle? The Rail Rile is more likely to wound all the most commonly encountered targets on the battlefield, a has superior armour penetration and is better against light vehicles.

"Sniper rifle" is an obscenely broad category. The Rail Rifle is not meant to be a sniper rifle, by the by. It was developed by the Tau to fill a role equivalent to the Imperium's plasma gunners.

Why would the Tau take Flak Armour over their own body Armour? Their Body Armour offers superior protection.

In game terms, yes. Flak armor is what the Guard are issued as standard. Kit varies from warzone to warzone however. One of the regiments which fought the Tau, the Brimlock Dragoons, were outfitted exclusively in carapace armor--the very same thing as the Tau's body armor.

It's also worth noting that the Tau "body armor" is just that. it's a highly effective armor plate for the chest, shoulders, and helmet. The rest of the body is relatively unprotected. Guard carapace gear covers the entirety of the soldier.
The fact that it gives the same save as the Tau body armor is silly.

Why would the Tau take a Smoke Launcher over a Disruption Pod? The Smoke Launcher can only be used once and prevents the tank from shooting.

Game terms again. A smoke launcher is able to be more effective against vehicles utilizing LOS weaponry....y'know, like what the Imperium uses.
The disruption pod is a masking effective against high tech enemies. It'd be super-handy against the Imperium's augur shells, but not very much else.
Not showcased in game terms of course, but meh.

Why would the Tau take a Machine Spirit over a Multi-Tracker? The Multi-Tracker allows the vehicle to fire more weapons.

The Machine Spirit repairs the vehicle and can even operate weapons when the crew is incapacitated.

Why would the Tau take a Jump Pack over a Jet Pack? The Jump Pack has to shut down after every short flight and doesn't help stabilize weapons systems.

The jump pack the Imperials are using is delivering an angry superhuman killing machine determined to rip your head off.

The Tau jet pack is delivering a battle suit which is firing its weapons as fast as it can.

Guess which one is going to be more effective 9/10 times?
(Hint: It's not the battle suit).

and so on.

I will concede that not every place where the Tau and the Imperium use their technogy to do the same thing the Tau do it better, but that was never my point anyway. My point is that a lot of the time the Tau rightly view their tech as superior.

And my point is that the Tau have a conceited viewpoint of their technology. They're fledglings taking their first flight out of the nest. They've not seen a quarter of the wonders and terrors of the galaxy, yet they view themselves as masters of it?

They're as vain as the Eldar.

3) In the cases that the Imperium tech is something they would actually be interested in and is notably superior to the Tau tech, the Tau have problems understanding technology that requires the belief (and low level pyschic power) of a human mind to function. As a result they dismiss it as crude and inferior and are unable to learn accurate lessons from the device.

You've confused humans with Orks, it seems.

An item that requires the user's faith and belief to function properly is an example of psychic tech. Seeing as that's the sort of tech being issued to imperial guardsmen, that implies that every human possesses a modicum of psychic power, even if it's so small that they themselves don't realize they have it. The big rule book evens states (on page 112 and 113) that humanity is about to move into a new stage of evolution in which they will become something akin to the Eldar or the Orks, a psychic race through and through.

I would say it is the Tau who are better equipped. But they lack the ferocity and determination of imperial troops.
In the book "Savage scars"
Its bombers to take out broadsides or a near-suicide charge from a space marine that almost lost his life.
And i think the tau lack the 10,000 years of military experiance the imperium has.
Just my two cents.

wow this blew up. I didn't realize the tau were prone to starting up some huge debates. I just got off work will shift through this tomorrow.

I think that Kanluwen explained everything.

Kanluwen wrote:

It's also worth noting that the Tau "body armor" is just that. it's a highly effective armor plate for the chest, shoulders, and helmet. The rest of the body is relatively unprotected. Guard carapace gear covers the entirety of the soldier.
The fact that it gives the same save as the Tau body armor is silly.

Not all Carapace armour does - It can range from complete armoured suits like the ones the Adeptus Arbites wear to individual pieces such as chest plates, helmets, greaves, etc. Wearing carapace armour does not mean they are fully protected. Storm Troopers wear Carapace armour and are not fully covered.

The point was that while there are certain advantages with Imperial Technology, the Tau do not want or need much of it. The Lasgun is the choice for Guardsmen because they are cheap, simple to make, easy to maintain and reliable - but they are not very powerful when compared to Tau pulse rifles. It would not be worth them trading power for reliability or any other advantage, when the whole purpose of the Tau is to lay down massive amounts of firepower.

Tau armour has all the protection at the front - as that is the direction the enemy is most likely to be shooting at them from, which is the same reason they have the large shoulder pad on that side. The chest, shoulders, helmet, and the front of the legs. The only real unprotected part is the left arm, and the back and sides of the legs.

Tau equipment fits their fighting style. It's the reason they don't give infantry squads heavy weapons, or use Titans or super heavies, - Why would they do that when the Battlesuits, Mantas etc can do the same thing better, and much more? Each unit has their own role to carry out.

In regards to Warp Drives, they don't understand the Warp and would not be able to reverse engineer it correctly - although that is how they got their Phased Warp-Drive in the first place, by reverse-engineering a ship that crashed near them.

There is not really anything the Imperium uses - outside of rare or psyker based tech, that the Tau really need at the moment.

Wow, several pages of tau-vs-imperial-tech ranting here, I reckon I'll just reply to OP:

Sageheart wrote:Hey,

I am working on some fluff for a campaign that hosts a Tau/human colony allience, I was wondering if anyone knew any sources or info of how Tau and human tech interact, are they able to be put together, do they function under very different ways, and how much of the Tau's tech is considered hersey by the imperium (just the A.I stuff)

basically I know very little on the Tau, save for the basics (caste system, type of tanks, etc.) so I am looking for any info on the Tau, but mostly the way in which they (the Tau themselves and their tech) interact with humans and their own tech.

Thanks for any feedback!

There's been a lot of mention already as to the differences between Tau and Imperial Philosophy of Science, but I think it might be useful to point out the difference between where they get their tech and how they use it.

Imperial technology is, for the main part, not designed by modern humans; it is copied or adapted from STC blueprints. STC blueprints are left over from the STC machines, one-factory-to-rule-them all devices which originally had a repository of all known technology within them, but were primarily used to print off blueprints for survival tools, the necessary equipment to create a colony on a virgin planet. Got your bulldozers? check. Got your cheap, easily repaired and produced longarm for hunting and homestead protection? check. These blueprints are all that is left of the STC machines, and thus the Imperium is full of practical, non-optimised, reliable equipment.
Case in point, the Rhino, a tractor design found on most pre-imperial worlds made from anything from superdense hyperalloys to wood; powered by anything from fusion cores to steam.

So Imperial technology, as someone mentioned quite accurately earlier, is akin to the AK47, being based not only on the principle of ruggedness and reproducibility, but (crucially) on ancient blueprints that themselves were optimised for ruggedness and reproducibility. Any print-outs that were not used and enshrined, were lost forever. It is without a doubt that pre-imperial infantry weapons would have pooed all over bolters, lasguns, and pulse rifles; but they were harder to maintain and produce, like Tau tech, as others have already said.

In addition, the Imperium of Man (and the Mechanicus) can't really claim to have a Philosophy of Science; they have a Philosophy of Archaeology instead. Rediscovering and copying past designs is how things work.

Therefore, in answer to OP's question, if the Admech presence on a human world were light or minimal, and the humans of that world were to ally themselves with the Tau, the Tau would not wish to use the human technology, but were it to break down, would be able to modify or repair it. They understand the base principles of science that drives the technology itself, up to their own technological level; what they don't do (that the Imperials will) is copy something they don't understand. There probably won't be much cross-pollination though, due to the philosophical differences; the Tau would need to set up schools on those worlds to raise humans in their school of thought.

And Kanluwen, I think the difference between human carapace and tau body armour is akin to the evolutionary steps from full plate mail to demilancer kit in history. Less overall protection, more protection on the vitals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-lancer

I hope I have contributed to this thread in a positive manner.

This aplies to all threads where Tau are mentioned. Coa can chrash threads in just one post. HES OUR GOD!

That is Heresy, there is only the Emperor and he is our shield and protector.
I am merely his humble servant.

I believe I already posted a warning in this thread about staying on-topic. Suspensions to follow.

It would probably be for the best if Coa was just banned. He might not realize it, but what he does is trolling. And that is against the forum rules amirite?

What is unclear about "stay on topic"? For everyone who is constantly complaining about another user dragging a thread down -- please realize that it's posts like these which are the problem. ~Manchu