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Juvieus Kaine wrote:Well I suppose a good question to ask here is: what are the pro's and con's of Origin? I've personally seen it as EA's plan to hang onto profits by selling their own games at their own prices, rather than potential discounts on Steam.

I would suggest looking very closely at their EULA. There are things in there that are... disturbing. While most Steam-like delivery systems collect data, Origin goes way beyond the norm, and it's very hard to opt out. Effectively the EULA also says that EA can over ride your choosing to opt out and turn it back on without telling you. It's already gotten slapped down in Germany for violating the law there, sadly, I do not see such a change coming to the US anytime soon.


I hate to say it, but I'm willing to bet that Mass Effect 3 becomes one of the few games in history to be pirated more then bought, due to the absurd level of intrusion.

-Loki- wrote:
I always love the argument that by not playing ME1 you aren't getting the full experience.

Playing ME 1 is painful after playing ME 2. It's not something I'd care to repeat - there's a reason PC players download saves with the choices they want for ME 2. PS3 players can just run through that DLC if they want to set up a new character. While both of these methods lose out on some tiny, meaningless choices in ME1 that result in a character saying hi as you walk past in ME 2 and 3, those aren't worth playing through the 10-15 hours of ME 1 every time you want a 'personalised' character.

I have to disagree with you there, I still enjoy playing ME1 then ME2, all that annoys me about ME1 is the Sniper Rifle controls and the grain filter thing, luckily the grain filter can be turned off.

In ways I prefer the 1st over the 2nd. There seemed to be more exploration and customisation in the 1st ME game.

I really liked ME1, but I think I prefered 2, the story was good in two, plus there seemed a little too much 'empty world' exploring in ME1.

I liked the fact that ME2 went slightly more shooter orientated, as it was mainly the story and character interactions I was interested in.

Just to repeat to any xbox 360 owners who missed it, the PS3 Genesis comic has appeared as a DLC for ME2. Allowing you to start a ME2 game and make all the key choices of ME1.

I liked both ME1 and ME2 - but the ideal game would have been a blend of the two. In the sequel, I missed slotting individual weapon and ammo rather than buying general upgrades for the entire team, I missed armour as items, and I missed the ability to friggin' crouch. Conversely, I could have done without the ridiculous holos on the guns.

Also, I want mah Mako back!

No surprise there. When Battlefield 3 came out it was only on Origin.

DickBandit wrote:No surprise there. When Battlefield 3 came out it was only on Origin.

And then the German Courts got involved....

Wait what? I thought BF3 was still origin only

Necroshea wrote:Wait what? I thought BF3 was still origin only

It is. But in Germany they changed the system so that BF3 can run without Origin. EDIT: As I understand it.

Yeah, seems forcing Origin and it's spyware on people in Germany is a crime. Too bad it's not in the US.

BaronIveagh wrote:Yeah, seems forcing Origin and it's spyware on people in Germany is a crime. Too bad it's not in the US.

Actually I think it makes them seem a little dumb. I've said it before. This has been going on for a long time and they only just now noticed?

LordofHats wrote:Actually I think it makes them seem a little dumb.

As an emigrated German, I'm inclined to agree. Many of my fellow ex-countrymen appear quite hysterical when it comes to this sort of stuff (or any ToU and user agreements in general), which can get annoying very fast when each of them suddenly wants to be an expert on law babbling on a forum or other community platform about how he wants to sue the company. Yawn.

I suppose I may be somewhat more indifferent about this due to my low expectations concerning privacy these days. Same about that huge debate regarding the placement of cameras in public areas ... eh, personally, I just fail to see the difference between being seen by some guy behind a monitor or an actual beat cop. A lot of the panic regarding this seems quite artificial, "just because", as if it'd be a damn fashion trend - especially considering how little people complained when it came to light that the government is using trojans to spy on its citizens or how often they tap people's phones these days. I'm usually a friend of government control over private companies, but I have to say it is rather worrisome how established these double standards have become. Politicians can get away with everything these days, from cheating at their doctorate to lying to outright corruption.

THe reasoning is mostly the mighty Morphing EA EULA. One moment it says they're going to mine your personal information and sell it to whoever they please, the next that's gone with a statement decrying the sale of personal information, and then replaced again with a note that they'll sell it but only non-personal information, which is replaced with a asterix saying 'See our other policy' which after you go through 80 pages, is back to: they're gonna mine your personal data and sell it to whoever they damn well please.

Why this is different then, say, steam: Because they don't stop at what you download. EA is taking your hardware data, your browser history, non-EA programs, the works. AND they're changing permissions on the files to make it difficult for you, the owner, to remove it.

I don't like steam, but this is way beyond what steam does (I've sat and monitored Steam's activities on a machine and it's not even a pimple on the ass of Origin.)

I always just find it amusing that people believe they had privacy of any kind, ever.

dogma wrote:I always just find it amusing that people believe they had privacy of any kind, ever.

I think the point to the whole thing was that EA doesn't care what the law says and is perfectly willing to break it until dragged in front of a judge. Like most major companies.

And, unfortunately, this time got caught and is facing public outcry. Just like with Dragon Age II, which had abysmal sales as a result....

BaronIveagh wrote:
I think the point to the whole thing was that EA doesn't care what the law says and is perfectly willing to break it until dragged in front of a judge. Like most major companies.

And, unfortunately, this time got caught and is facing public outcry.

I'm not saying there should be no outcry, but its not like the law is held in high regard when people believe they can get away with violating it.

And, really, I've not seen anyone primarily object to EA violating the law, its more "ZOMG my privacies!!!1!!!1."

BaronIveagh wrote:
Just like with Dragon Age II, which had abysmal sales as a result....

Dragon Age II sold quite well, actually. Not as well as expected, but well enough.

Origin is like Steam except by EA and for EA games. There's nothing wrong with it, its just that people hate the "big" developers so any clients they make are hated as well despite doing the same thing as what a "smaller" company's client does.

I dislike having multiple clients to be honest, I even run minecraft through steam.

http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2011/08/ea-origins-eula-is-non-story.html

I'll just leave this here.

As for Dragon Age II - that debacle had nothing to do with Origin. In the first week, it sold more units than DA:O, indicating that a lot of people pre-ordered it solely due to the reputation of the first game and the hype surrounding the second.

Then a lot of people actually noticed that it's really just a gakky sequel, and word spread..

After that, sales plummeted to the floor - at least when compared directly to DA:O which was able to keep a rather consistent flow for several months.

One moment it says they're going to mine your personal information and sell it to whoever they please, the next that's gone with a statement decrying the sale of personal information

Like I've been saying it NEVER said that. People assumed that's what the words in the EULA meant without understanding at all the technical jargon that the EULA was written in (EDIT: Not that it was that hard to understand). People imagined that whole thing and blew it out of proportion.

LordofHats wrote:

One moment it says they're going to mine your personal information and sell it to whoever they please, the next that's gone with a statement decrying the sale of personal information

Like I've been saying it NEVER said that. People assumed that's what the words in the EULA meant without understanding at all the technical jargon that the EULA was written in (EDIT: Not that it was that hard to understand). People imagined that whole thing and blew it out of proportion.

Yes, because saying, and I quote (from the BF3 version) and bold the important parts:

"2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

You agree that EA may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services. EA may also use this information combined with personal information for marketing purposes and to improve our products and services. We may also share that data with our third party service providers in a form that does not personally identify you. IF YOU DO NOT WANT EA TO COLLECT, USE, STORE, TRANSMIT OR DISPLAY THE DATA DESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE APPLICATION. This and all other data provided to EA and/or collected by EA in connection with your installation and use of this Application is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control."


The Terms of the Privacy Policy have changed, without notice, five times in the last four months, as EA reserves the right to change both the terms of the EULA and the Privacy Policy at any time, without informing you of it, beyond posting them on thier website. BTW: if you were so unfortunate to have logged in to their site to read the changed EULA or privacy agreement, you have automatically agreed to them, per the EULA and Privacy agreement. It also waives your right to join any class action lawsuits against EA, in perpetuity.


For those that insist that this is like Steam, here's Steam's own clause:

“store information on a user’s hard drive that is used in conjunction with online play of Valve products. This includes a unique authorization key or CD-Key that is either entered by the user or downloaded automatically during product registration. This authorization key is used to identify a user as valid and allow access to Valve’s products. Information regarding Steam billing, your Steam account, your Internet connection and the Valve software installed on your computer are uploaded to the server in connection with your use of Steam and Valve software.”

Hmm... seems a bit more limited, doesn't it?




BTW: here's an alternate game law blog with a different intrpretation: http://www.technolawguy.com/2011/08/ea-if-you-dont-like-our-privacy-policy.html

BaronIveagh wrote:

For those that insist that this is like Steam, here's Steam's own clause:

“store information on a user’s hard drive that is used in conjunction with online play of Valve products. This includes a unique authorization key or CD-Key that is either entered by the user or downloaded automatically during product registration. This authorization key is used to identify a user as valid and allow access to Valve’s products. Information regarding Steam billing, your Steam account, your Internet connection and the Valve software installed on your computer are uploaded to the server in connection with your use of Steam and Valve software.”

Hmm... seems a bit more limited, doesn't it?

Well, when you don't actually provide the correct clause, I can see why your opinion would be so deeply skewed.

By using Valve's online sites and products, users agree that Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information, as defined below. Valve may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Valve shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.

Valve may use customer contact information provided by users to send information about Valve, including news about product updates, contests, events, and other promotional materials, but only if the users agree to receive such communications. Except in the cases described below, Valve will not share personally identifiable information with any third party unless the user agrees to such disclosure in advance. "Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user. While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site. Personally identifiable information will be processed and stored by Valve in databases situated in the United States. Valve may allow third parties performing services under contract with Valve to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services. In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this privacy policy. In some situations, personally identifiable information you input in connection with Steam may be made available to other users of Steam. For example, during registration of Steam, Valve collects a user's email address and nickname, and at the user's option, first and last name. Some of this information is searchable and available to other users within Steam. Valve has no obligation to keep the privacy of personally identifiable information that a user makes available to other users via Steam or other Valve software, such as in multiplayer or other public functions.

I always wonder if, had Valve and EA not fallen out over Crysis 2 (I think it was Crysis 2?), EA would have used Steam as their platform.

Either way, I keep Origin use to a minimum, I do NOT want a state of affairs where every publisher has a platform and I have to run 6 steam clones in my taskbar to play anything.

Fortunately there are 'fixes' to play EA games like BF3 without Origin

BaronIveagh wrote:You agree that EA may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services. EA may also use this information combined with personal information for marketing purposes and to improve our products and services. We may also share that data with our third party service providers in a form that does not personally identify you. IF YOU DO NOT WANT EA TO COLLECT, USE, STORE, TRANSMIT OR DISPLAY THE DATA DESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE APPLICATION. This and all other data provided to EA and/or collected by EA in connection with your installation and use of this Application is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control."

Way to miss the part that matters. The problem people have isn't that information is being sold but that they've gotten into their heads that some kind of personal information is being sold.

The part that matters is this one: "store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services."

None of that is really invasive to you at all. All it does is super slow your computer by hogging your RAM if you don't have much. They're collecting information on graphics cards, motherboards, processors, keyboards and mice, and software like Team Speak and Ventrillo (as in do people use it, which they check by seeing if its installed). All of these things HELP gamers and aren't invasive at all beyond hogging your RAM. And you obviously haven't read the privacy policy because EA doesn't even collect any identifying information beyond your IP (which is used for regional market studies). EDIT: And they haven't changed that in their privacy policy in years. They aren't allowed to collect information that way its ILLEGAL here too. They don't need to scan for your name or address you probably already gave it to them in some other form (like when you registered an EA account).

What do you lose by EA registering that you're the 567083244352th person with an Nvidia Graphics card, and that number is then sold to Nvidia? What has hurt you?

Henners91 wrote:Either way, I keep Origin use to a minimum, I do NOT want a state of affairs where every publisher has a platform and I have to run 6 steam clones in my taskbar to play anything.

This bit I can understand completely - I really hate the incompatibility between these tools, just as I hate the incompatibility between various messengers. I have no problem using Origin, but I only start it up when I want to play a game from my Origin library, and shut it down again after. Same goes for Steam, though.

Well I have Steam set to auto-run because A. The store popping up reminds me of the good deals and B. In gaming terms it's a social hub for me, much like how others use XFire... Which never caught on with my friends and I, we've always just used Steam for our voice chats/general gaming.

Steam, I think, has community support that only XFire really rivals. And I like being able to just casually game, my friends see what I am on and be able to contact me. If I had my way (I'm a social network harlot), there'd be full Facebook compatibility and the game I'm playing would show on my FB profile and FB chat would work ingame. They're kind of gravitating toward some kind of Facebook-Steam compatibility though, what with me now being able to add Facebook friends onto Steam... but I want moar!

Henners91 wrote:Well I have Steam set to auto-run because A. The store popping up reminds me of the good deals and B. In gaming terms it's a social hub for me, much like how others use XFire... Which never caught on with my friends and I, we've always just used Steam for our voice chats/general gaming.

Steam, I think, has community support that only XFire really rivals. And I like being able to just casually game, my friends see what I am on and be able to contact me. If I had my way (I'm a social network harlot), there'd be full Facebook compatibility and the game I'm playing would show on my FB profile and FB chat would work ingame. They're kind of gravitating toward some kind of Facebook-Steam compatibility though, what with me now being able to add Facebook friends onto Steam... but I want moar!

Ugh... please.. no. Facebook and the like are annoying enough as is. I don't want them in my games...

I do worry about my Steam fanboyness though: I think it offers great prices (about 80% of my purchases are through Steam) and it's the most polished distribution platform out there: Who can't help but laugh at, say, Impulse?

But by beating Origin over the head and holding up Steam as the ideal it must achieve/beat, am I, by extension, encouraging giving Valve a monopoly over digital distribution? Personally I only own two games on Origin and three on Direct 2 Drive... this is opposed to 183 installed games on Steam (admittedly some are non-Steam games, but I'd say only about 1/3rd). I would live with a monopoly happily but that isn't good for the consumer... in theory, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soladrin wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Well I have Steam set to auto-run because A. The store popping up reminds me of the good deals and B. In gaming terms it's a social hub for me, much like how others use XFire... Which never caught on with my friends and I, we've always just used Steam for our voice chats/general gaming.

Steam, I think, has community support that only XFire really rivals. And I like being able to just casually game, my friends see what I am on and be able to contact me. If I had my way (I'm a social network harlot), there'd be full Facebook compatibility and the game I'm playing would show on my FB profile and FB chat would work ingame. They're kind of gravitating toward some kind of Facebook-Steam compatibility though, what with me now being able to add Facebook friends onto Steam... but I want moar!

Ugh... please.. no. Facebook and the like are annoying enough as is. I don't want them in my games...

Each to their own, I can understand that completely. I'm just not very private and quite the exhibitionist.

LordofHats wrote:
The part that matters is this one: "store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services."

Because you (the person, or at least, the person who owns the computers) can be identified by your computer. Each PC's serial numbers, MAC addresses, and even IP number can be used to identify you (though not with a degree of certainty to stand up in a court of law, certainly enough to stand up to what passes for 'Personal Information'.)

LordofHats wrote:
All of these things HELP gamers and aren't invasive at all beyond hogging your RAM. And you obviously haven't read the privacy policy because EA doesn't even collect any identifying information beyond your IP (which is used for regional market studies). EDIT: And they haven't changed that in their privacy policy in years... They don't need to scan for your name or address you probably already gave it to them in some other form (like when you registered an EA account).

Um, you do realize that if you have an ISP that assigns you a static IP, that's all they need, right? And, again, all that hardware stuff up there can identify you, and possibly even provide exploits based on driver information, which is also collected under the broad terms given.

And making off with my registry and scanning every directory in my computer isn't invasive? I'd hate to see what you consider invasive, then. BTW: running a process monitor and Origin shows that they don't even wait for you to agree to the EULA before they start scanning and transmitting. So even if you say 'No' they still have info on you.

LordofHats wrote:
They aren't allowed to collect information that way its ILLEGAL here too.

If by 'here' you mean the US, no, it's perfectly legal: Why? Because you agreed to it (knowingly or not). Further, you also waive your right to sue them in a trail by jury.





On the Steam thing: Against, you fail to disprove the point (though bravo, I hadn't noticed I had copy/pasted the wrong part). Read how again and again Valve adds 'with permission' and 'agree to receive' additionally requiring the 3rd parties to conform to the PP, which EA does NOT do.

Personally I don't use either, but if forced to pick, I'll go with Steam.




EDIT: Henners, btw: if EA considers browser history to not be personal data, they can get all YOUR personal info anyway, based on your facebook account, assuming you put real info there.

BaronIveagh wrote:Because you (the person, or at least, the person who owns the computers) can be identified by your computer. Each PC's serial numbers, MAC addresses, and even IP number can be used to identify you (though not with a degree of certainty to stand up in a court of law, certainly enough to stand up to what passes for 'Personal Information'.)

Most people don't even know what MAC addresses are, or that PC's have serial numbers (technically that's the motherboard but whatevs) and IP addresses don't identify you at all. IP's aren't personal in the sense they are secret. EA could just mine for that information (hell I could) and what would it tell me? Nothing but where you live and just about anyone can find that in a phone book. That information is not a secret.

Have you ever used punk buster? Congrats all the internet can now find your MAC address and your serial number from any site that monitors and stores PB bans. They're no more identifying than a user name on a forum.

LordofHats wrote:Um, you do realize that if you have an ISP that assigns you a static IP, that's all they need, right? And, again, all that hardware stuff up there can identify you, and possibly even provide exploits based on driver information, which is also collected under the broad terms given.

So? Your conspiracy theory makes no sense. Tell me in straight terms. How does this hurt you?

You can't because it doesn't. None of the "identifying" information is a secret anyway and none of it can really come back to haunt you. EDIT: Well, it can but in no way that is exclusive to EA. Someone could easily just walk onto PB Bans and copy all that info and spoof your IP, MAC, and ID next time they go on a hacking spree.

And making off with my registry and scanning every directory in my computer isn't invasive?

They don't as I've explained (They can pull all the info they want from your installed register which is a single list stored by your OS). If you want to live in your fantasy world where your homework is so important that EA absolutely wants to know about it be my guest but it is a fantasy. They are not scanning your computer and copying every file on it. Technically they aren't even scanning they're just calling up a list that you look at every time you open install/uninstall.

I'd hate to see what you consider invasive, then.

Something actually harmful.

BTW: running a process monitor and Origin shows that they don't even wait for you to agree to the EULA before they start scanning and transmitting. So even if you say 'No' they still have info on you.

boo hoo? Who cares?

LordofHats wrote:If by 'here' you mean the US, no, it's perfectly legal: Why?

No you've imagined it is legal because you've imagined they're doing something they are not with this data.

Because you agreed to it (knowingly or not).

You cannot legally agree to an illegal contract clause.

Further, you also waive your right to sue them in a trail by jury.

Such waivers regularly fail to protect entities in civil suits rendering them mostly useless. Hence why EA would never scan a computer's full register because if they so much as stumble on any proprietary info on a system owned by say, an Activision Blizzard executive, they get their butts sued off faster than I can snap my fingers and say "oh nah they didn't."

@BaronIveagh

I'm against them taking my personal information without consulting me, ofc, and if they don't keep that data secure that might be a problem... But I don't see what horrid things they will do with my FB data. It seems that the 'profit' in knowing about the demographics of their userbase is delivering relevant advertisements or improving services aimed at me, 's'a'good thing.

And rumours that what FB knows, the CIA knows, etc. don't worry me massively. I've done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide.

But please do consult me next time, EA... you're still better than Activision but you make me slightly cross.