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Excellent points Mastiff. This demon is kinda the pitbull of all the demons, so his tail would not be too long after all.

I will draw it up very bonelike as you suggest chaos0xomega. Almost like the vertebrae from a spine?

I got a few more days working on this one. Thanks for helping me so far, all of you.

I'm late the the party. :(

FEET
The original were cloven, and your modification looks lupine. Lupine is good, if you can reptilian them up any (there's plenty of reference already in the thread I think) it might improve it. I was going to suggest more avian in appearance, but I think now that'd be a waste, for this guy anyways.

HEAD
Definatately prefer with more bone ridges along the jaw and brow. For the three heads B speaks to me to. The only thing I didn't like is the Spine ridge that goes all the way to the brow is almost becoming a third horn. it looks better in the full view, but if there were a way to 'split' the spinal ridge at the base fo the skull and have it roll over the crown of the head into the horns, that might look better.

NOSE
First feels human, second reptialian, third belongs on a bat. If you use traditional leathery wings, that bat nose is going to be even MORE pronounced. I liked nose A because the more reptilian features we add, the less 'human' it looks, and my take was that as a higher order, this was supposed to be one of the more human demons.

TAILS (and demo-lution)
We always want to call demons a race, like humans are a race, and dogs are a race, but they're more of a ecosystem. In biology terms they're closer to a Kingdom than a Genus. This explains why they have tails and wings on some but not others. Remember too that we all have tails, they just aren't as pronounced on some animals as on others. Frogs have them, but they're stubby. Whales have finger bones. that one always blows my mind.

Weapons
Tetsubo



You want a weapon that rends and shreads, not slices.

EDIT: Maybe there's a way to make a two Dual headed axes that can blend into one great maul?
http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/Dsunchrono/carrikal.jpg

Hey Jeremy, looking great so far.

What about linking two weapons with a chain?

Redbeard wrote:
What about linking two weapons with a chain?

Ax-chucks?

Hi Jeremy, I've missed much so it seems! while reading through the ideas and comments I've been bouncing from love the idea to hmmm not sure :-) then I saw your newest mock up sketch and i'm very excited about this, I was originally going to push for the humanoid nose of A but after seeing the new head design i'm going to say it looks right, especially with the additions of the bone protrusions and tusks! I was/am unsure of the addition of a tail as i thought it would bring it back into 'same 'ol daemon' territory but when I again saw the images all I could think was 'how cool would a tail that looked like a spine would be!' and I can also say to your credit now as I browse the thread the only thing i can think of is exactly how i will paint this! I have a myriad of colour palettes going through my head and techniques that would just suit this guy, and that's the biggest positive you can have with projects like these, if painters WANT to paint him then you have succeeded!

keep it up I'm absolutely itching like a meth addict to see the final pics.

Nerdfest09

I second Bounty's Testubo suggest O_O Nasty looking thing...

I hadn't thought about it previously. Now that someone's brought it up, and I think on it more, I think a, alternate weapon might actually be an interesting way to go.

We're used to seeing demons wield swords and axes. We've even seen *ahem* scythes; but not so many other weapons.

Any chance of you entertaining the idea of a different weapon?

Eric

I like the idea of alternate weapons. Giving the buyer some options allows them to make something a bit more unique.

I really like the head/face of this model http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=mae_blg_bnb_mon_019_000 minus the middle horn. And the use of demorganic armour (bone plates/protrusions) of this model from the same range http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=mae_blg_bnb_mon_013_000

Heya guys. Sorry I haven't been here in a while. I'm homeless for the next few days and am at the mercy of unlocked wireless connections. It is good to see the thread is still going strong, and is full of great ideas.

This demon MUST have multiple weapons! Doing a single weapon for each hand is simply too limiting, especially with all these great options. Since the demon is using two hand weapons currently, how about an axe/axe combo (for the axe lovers out there) and a sword/whip combo (for the Balrog lovers out there) an open hand option for the off-hand, and a single handed epic weapon like that giant tetsubo?

That Krull miniature from Maelstrom games has some fantastic concepts and has some very clean sculpting. That head is very unique as well.

The things I dislike are the amount of armor since, as I said earlier in the thread, a demon might not want to lower itself to using the defensive equipment that is used to protect weak human flesh... because demons have non-weak demon flesh! Plus, I imagine demons as being temporarily summoned into humanoid-dwelling planes, and I have to then imagine a demons metal armor, leather straps, buckles and rivets also being materialized. Plus, I have to imagine lots of smaller demon minions to slaughter cows for leather, smelt steel, pounf plates, etc. and that to me is very human-type stuff to do, not demon. Either that, or the demon is summoned...then the human worshippers, with their giant gantries and cranes, then don their demon with the armor that they made for it.... but to me that would be like putting armor on a god. This, as one can imagine, might even be insulting to the demon.

Plus, when looking at demorganic armor to replace traditional metal armor, it become a real challenge to find out exactly how that particular demon's attributes would create armor. For example, the Rage Demons's skin has calcified to the point of become bone armor, full of teeth and spikes. Almost like barnicles on a boat hull. This is in keeping with his warliek and brutal nature. He probably clawed and mutilated himself to gain even more armor! But what does demorganic armor look like on a fat demon? How about a succubus? The demonic organic armor is just another way to encasulate their unique attributes and is a fun challenge.

This is just my own philosophy and opinion, and we are lucky to have so many talented artists who are able to capture different facets of one topic.

I am not able to sketch up any new stuff yet, but some I will be reset and settle and get some new art out. In the meantime, I can post some artwork up for the next demon? Perhaps?

Jeremy wrote:But what does demorganic armor look like on ... a succubus

Two words:
Thong
Pasties


LOL


Eric

Good to see you didn't disappear back into cyber space.

I recently picked up a UF Treelord. What an awesome miniature. I can't wait to see more of your work.

Jeremy wrote:Good point about the head size. Ill begin to scale that down immediately. You are absolutely right about it being on the slightly bigish side. I was wondering why this demon was looking so darn cute!

I just quickly did up some inspiration art. Here you can see the arms are bigger, the face is nastier and a little smaller, there is more demorganic bone armor, and no loin cloth.

With the "bone loincloth" concept - and this results in the tail/nosexytail thing as well - are these "demons" actual demons, or are they a race that reproduces sexually?


If they're demons - creatures of magic/fey/mana/whatever who don't do the sex (as opposed, to, say the Olympians or Titans of ancient Greece) who don't need genitalia, then just skip the loincloth/crotch protector entirely and essentially give him abd that go down to and including his crotch, where he's smooth like Ken and Barbie - or essentially textured in the same manner that his lower abs are.

When it's time for sexygirldemon, you'll have to decide what you're going for, and I'll feed back then once I've seen the concept(s)- "why would a sex(y) demon wear a g-string?" is something I always wonder. Why would a demon be sexy? Or even have functional genitalia? I guess, to engage in coitus with humans (elf, dwarf, whatever) or other demons. So kinda like succubi

Can they modify their appearance? Is that why he has skulls on his arms and she has giant breasts (potentially)? Could they then have a tail or not at will? Or are they "designed" by a god/diety?


Just a bunch of thoughts that came to mind, as you're looking over functional elements and reasoning why things are the way they are, rather than going for "cool demon, bro!"

Some good points there, scipio.

Personally, I like 'addressing' the crotch situation somehow. Even if they're asexual creatures, giving models the "Ken" treatment down there just doesn't look right. Although our brain knows there doesn't need to be anything there, our eyes just register it as being wrong somehow.

I think the demorganic bone covering (no pun intended) is the best option.

Also, @Jeremy - I'm not a fan of the tail shown in the mock up pic that scipio quoted above. I think the tail should be mostly fleshy, and any demorganic bone covering should be minimal and taper off early.

Eric

scipio.au wrote:With the "bone loincloth" concept - and this results in the tail/nosexytail thing as well - are these "demons" actual demons, or are they a race that reproduces sexually?


If they're demons - creatures of magic/fey/mana/whatever who don't do the sex (as opposed, to, say the Olympians or Titans of ancient Greece) who don't need genitalia, then just skip the loincloth/crotch protector entirely and essentially give him abd that go down to and including his crotch, where he's smooth like Ken and Barbie - or essentially textured in the same manner that his lower abs are.

When it's time for sexygirldemon, you'll have to decide what you're going for, and I'll feed back then once I've seen the concept(s)- "why would a sex(y) demon wear a g-string?" is something I always wonder. Why would a demon be sexy? Or even have functional genitalia? I guess, to engage in coitus with humans (elf, dwarf, whatever) or other demons. So kinda like succubi

Can they modify their appearance? Is that why he has skulls on his arms and she has giant breasts (potentially)? Could they then have a tail or not at will? Or are they "designed" by a god/diety?


Just a bunch of thoughts that came to mind, as you're looking over functional elements and reasoning why things are the way they are, rather than going for "cool demon, bro!"

Demons are typically associated with emotion, whether it be what makes them, what nourishes them, or what drives them, and for humans (and we can assume by extention all humanoid races) little is as emotionally charged as sex. A great bloody demon charging you with a drawn axe may scare you, but the same demon with an enraged phallis is going to produce much deeper emotions, and probably not the good kind! Now we do have to ask "at what point is this acceptable?" and for most of the darkest versions the answer will be three stops ago. That's why there will be some sort of nod to genitalia on the demon model, but it won't be an overt one.

When dealing with the Succubi however, the who reason for them is lust based, and you NEED to have that modeled. The question becomes where do we draw the line between "this is an immortal being who's sole purpose is to elicit a sexual reation" and "there's a 10 y/o standing RIGHT THERE!"

For more wierd fun, I challenge you to find a single Incubbi model. Apparently lusty females is ok, but lusty males is a no-no.

One thing that I always found intersting is just how symetrical all deamons seem to be, despite there being no need. They don't quite follow regular physics and their strength doesn't come from the size of their muscles right? Having one arms be bigger than the other, one side of their face be covered entirely in bone armour, or having their torso's proportions distorted by similar growths would make the Daemon scaryer and set him apart from convention.

I really like the look of the ridged face btw, and the bone armour concept is very interesting and would make for a very fun time painting.

I know the weapons have been discussed to death, but would a melding of weapon and flesh work for your concept? Its not like the Daemon needs his hands for anything but weapons, and you could take the "things growing out of me to make me more BA" concept. I imagine this would look something like a tyranid bonesword but less slick and more brutal. Maybe an Uruk-Hai looking weapon (like in the movie, with a spike at the end)

The idea behind this thread is really cool. Being able to add to the discussion over a concept for a sick model like this is almost too good to be true. Holding my breath for the final product.

The problem with large scale asymmetry (appendages, etc) is that it just looks goofy. What would scare the Hell out of us in real life is not the same as that which we imagine in our game world.
I think asymmetrical appendages would be a bad call, and I'd like to go on the record again for being against fused weaponry. That said, I do think you've got a good idea re: partial facial demorganic armor.


Eric

Bounty wrote:
Demons are typically associated with emotion, whether it be what makes them, what nourishes them, or what drives them, and for humans (and we can assume by extention all humanoid races) little is as emotionally charged as sex. A great bloody demon charging you with a drawn axe may scare you, but the same demon with an enraged phallis is going to produce much deeper emotions, and probably not the good kind! Now we do have to ask "at what point is this acceptable?" and for most of the darkest versions the answer will be three stops ago. That's why there will be some sort of nod to genitalia on the demon model, but it won't be an overt one.

When dealing with the Succubi however, the who reason for them is lust based, and you NEED to have that modeled. The question becomes where do we draw the line between "this is an immortal being who's sole purpose is to elicit a sexual reation" and "there's a 10 y/o standing RIGHT THERE!"

I say, in this regard, the artist should produce the model they want to produce, and allow those purchasing the model to take responsibility to display it where appropriate. There are no 10-year-olds in my house, and I'm not offended by genitals. Honestly, a rage daemon with no clothes and large testicles would be pretty badass. These models aren't being designed for children, I see no reason to limit them based on what children might see - assuming the artist is comfortable taking them in that direction.

MagickalMemories wrote:The problem with large scale asymmetry (appendages, etc) is that it just looks goofy. What would scare the Hell out of us in real life is not the same as that which we imagine in our game world.

As an artistic exercise, my wife and I tried to envision critters without recognizable characteristics. It's really hard to do, because we (humans) need to key on things we understand. But if you look around, in all the sci-fi out there, aliens are bipedal. They've got eyes, mouths, and so on.

Redbeard wrote:
As an artistic exercise, my wife and I tried to envision critters without recognizable characteristics. It's really hard to do, because we (humans) need to key on things we understand. But if you look around, in all the sci-fi out there, aliens are bipedal. They've got eyes, mouths, and so on.

I always found that hilarious about aliens in movies. Being which evolved on other planets looking like humans bar skin colour and a few ridges.

When I mentioned assymetry I meant taking the armour plating growths a step further and letting them unbalance the model slightly. Then again, Deamons are manifestations of our fear and a perfect warrior with a bestial visage is the face of war. Btw, I know this is a large daemon character model, but it would be sweet to have bloodletters that look like this instead of tongue-out lizard-people.

It is always a thrill to see a new batch of great thinking when I come back to this thread. Lots of stuff to go over.

asymmetry: I think that demonkind is not limited to having symmetrical proportions. Demons are probably warped and mutilated to all degree. Having said that, all degrees of disproportion, from human to completely wonky, are another way to provide distinction from one of my demons to the next. The Rage demon might have more "normal" proportions, only because his design ancestors (Balrog, Balor, etc.) are usually proportioned this way. The rage demon however will be more hulk-like, or ape-like in stature. This is to provide juxtaposition with, say for example, a vulture demon or a great big fat demon. In fact, the great big fat demon will probably have the most asymmetrical proportions, like the "Jailer" from Darksiders. When one demon is viewed next to the other, by having a range of disproportion there will be a nice variety and distinction.

genitals: One could consider a demon a kind of golem. Instead of being made out of clay or stone or iron, a demon is made from pure evil, with a tinge of their own demonic distinction. A golem is fashioned by its creator, and is probably not equipped to reproduce. A demon is not fashioned by a craftsmans hands, but rather by the perceptions and beliefs of the followers of said demon. The demon is summoned instead of created, and BAMF! it all of the sudden shares many of the physical properties and attributes of what the worshippers dreamed up. To this end, the succubus would have genitals, much to the delight of the followers of the succubus. The rage demon might have a genital region full of bone armor. The great big fat demon might have a mouth where genitals should be, as a mockery to humanoid forms. That is just my current design philosophy. I think the Rage Demon in his last batch of concept art has a bit too much junk in his junk, and I will begin designing him more specifically.

If we were really going for it, every demon we design would have nightmarish mockeries of genitals, but we have to think about an all-ages game environment in stores and in homes. Having said that, we plan to make our succubus a little.... more spicy... you could say.

esthetic philosophy demonica: In this universe, there are probably very old demonic deities. Demons spawn forth, but are shapeless entities in lowers planes. When a group of cultist humans begin to worship an old demonic god, the offspring of that god are shaped by their beliefs of how the demon looks, behaves, etc. It is kind of like the demon of rage is the halfway point between what the old god is and what the human worshippers perceive him to be. When the humans are successful in summoning a demon, it pops out containing a lots elements that the human worshippers had invented, like artwork, poetry, runes, glyphs, decoration, etc. If the totem for the rage demon was a pole made of skulls, topped with a severed bull head, then that would explain why the rage demon has so many skull-like shapes in his bone armor and horns on his head.

What I am hoping to accomplish is to create the demon the way WE like it the best, and then reverse engineer a culture for the cultists who summoned him.

hands melding into weapons: The only reason why I am currently against making the weapons actual extensions of the arms is because the weapon itself is a demon. The demon-weapon his conscious, ancient, super-intelligent, and autonomous. It has a different personality to the demon, and communicates telepathically. The demon weapon is the same shapeless energy on the lower planes that became shaped by a cultists imaginings of how their god's weapon would be. To this end, not joining the weapon to the demon would help us to consider them as separate entities. However, if that demonic weapon had a tounge or feelers.... then those could grasp and interact with the demons hand and arm.

Thoughts?

Bounty wrote:
Demons are typically associated with emotion, whether it be what makes them, what nourishes them, or what drives them, and for humans (and we can assume by extention all humanoid races) little is as emotionally charged as sex. A great bloody demon charging you with a drawn axe may scare you, but the same demon with an enraged phallis is going to produce much deeper emotions, and probably not the good kind! Now we do have to ask "at what point is this acceptable?" and for most of the darkest versions the answer will be three stops ago. That's why there will be some sort of nod to genitalia on the demon model, but it won't be an overt one.

Perhaps not sex, but testosterone - would a demon have/need/use testosterone? I don't see any need at all for an enraged phallus unless the figure is specifically an incubi. I've never had wood while raging and breaking things, personally. Perhaps great big testicles to produce all that testosterone?

When dealing with the Succubi however, the who reason for them is lust based, and you NEED to have that modeled. The question becomes where do we draw the line between "this is an immortal being who's sole purpose is to elicit a sexual reation" and "there's a 10 y/o standing RIGHT THERE!"

Well, he didn't say he was making a Succubi. He said "sexy girl demon" which I extrapolated to the QA: "Why boobs? - I guess it must be/has to be a succubi!"

Succubus. Demon girl. The actual name and origin will be shaped in a new thread, coming soon.

On a base level, she is sleek boob'ed demon.... who is the product of the worshippings of a deranged and perverted humanoid sex cult.

Since the group of cultists are primarily heterosexual males, the demon popped out a female. Lots of other details will be discussed and decided upon.

We will have that new thread started in a few days.

Melded Weapons: Ok, so the weapons are also Daemonic entities so should be entirely separate. How does this fit with the human worshippers and the way in which Daemons are created? I mean, if you're worshiping a god of rage and summoning his deamon followers, would you also be thinking or and summoning a daemon weapon, or does the daemon itself summon it?

I'm only asking because you said that you couldn't imagine the daemons manufacturing anything, so the most direct way to get weapons would be the same way that they get armour, by mutation. I guess I don't see why armour is bony growths, but weapons are all metalic and separate daemons.

Also, in my mind, deamonic weapons are forged and then a daemon is bound into them (against which they rage eternally).

Genetals and Daemon Sexuality: I think that the bony jock thing works perfectly with the idea behind these daemons. When you think of a monstrous warrior you think of his terrible visage and horrid weapons. The wings and flowing musculature are also a part of the image since they make him more terrible and a better killer. Since the entity is humanoid there is a vague sense of where genitals would go, but its not at all the focus of the worship (unlike with a Sucubus/Incubus).

Deities: You mentioned that this setting has old, established deities from which the form of the daemons is in part derived. Are these the four warhammer chaos gods we're talking about here or some other (no doubt with similarities) Pantheon of evil. Maybe specifying what the rage deity is exactly could help in determining the deamons' form.

On an unrelated note, why do only evil gods have daemons? Are angels just daemons of a "good god"? Would an opposing Pantheon of more benevolent deities have their own set of daemonic (in this case daemon just being some being from another realm) minions and summoning.

Edit: Just to make this not a purely philosophical post: I don't like either the hoofs or the hybrid hooves since both feel like impractical ways for the daemon to get around. I know hooves are an established daemonic trait but there's a reason why only quadrapeds have them. There's no way to actually balance on two of them. Now daemonic Centaurs, THAT would be awesome with hooves

This is shaping up to be my personal view of the perfect demon! I don't really have anything to add at the moment other than encouragement!

What size are you looking at making this?

InyokaMadoda, the creature should fit onto a 60x60 base roughly, and should be very large while still being balanced, proportioned and playable in a tabletop wargame.

Great stuff Powerclaw. For the weapons, I just did up a bunch of sketches including melded, forged and demorganic weapons.


I agree that if the weapon is a separate entity that it would have to be imagined of and manifested in the same way as the demon/god. Considering that cults do not usually worship weapons, this does not exactly stay in keeping with the intelligent weapon thing. A forged weapon, or a demorganic non-intelligent bone weapon, or a melded weapon would make more sense.

So, which will it be? I am really stuck on the weapon and would love to get more feedback.

Item I looks amazing!!!

I prefer the first set A-D.

I think a Daemons will power is enough to drag a weapon through with him.

G, H, I, any of these fit the estetic perfectly.

Honestly, I don't like ANY of them. In all seriousness, anything in your recent upload would put this firmly in my "not interested" category.

I like the axe. I like the idea of a a tetsubo, too.
Those "meat cleaver" looking weapons and the fused weapons, though... they just don't work for me.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, I don't like ANY of them. In all seriousness, anything in your recent upload would put this firmly in my "not interested" category.

I like the axe. I like the idea of a a tetsubo, too.
Those "meat cleaver" looking weapons and the fused weapons, though... they just don't work for me.

Eric

Not even in Perspective?