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Heya Dakkaites. I would appreciate some honest and constructive criticism on some concept art that I have drawn up for an upcoming sculpture.

Just for some background:
I am the same Jeremy who co-owned, painted and sculpted for Ultraforge Miniatures. Sophia and I sold that company a while back. Soph is now a full time nurse and I am still sculpting and painting every day. I have decided to get back into the sculpting world that I miss so much.




The Rage Demon.
I am designing what we call in the shop the "Rage Demon". It is kind of a banal name, I know, but it is really meant to name a category, not a creature. The Rage Demon theme is heavily inspired by the old "shadow and flame" demons of fantasy fiction. This theme has been largley shaped by Tolkien's Balrog, which had been invented somewhere inside 1937 to 1949. Borrowing from Tolkien, Gary Gygax later created and published the Type VI demon, or Balor as it is commonly known, in 1976. Games Workshop borrowed from both Tolkien and Gygax (and also the writings of Michael Moorcock), creating and publishing the Bloodthirster in the 1980's. This is a very common theme for demons indeed! I am now looking to contribute and evolve this theme while adding some new elements as well, the same as Gygax and GW and hundreds of other writers and artists alike.

Some of the old stuff applies to our new demon: Heavily muscled, winged, horned, angry, and ugly. Some stuff I do not want to apply is the traditional whip as a weapon, since I see this weapon as being elegant, fancy and relativity weak. The succubus however, being a popular concept in modern fantasy, really embodies the whip as a weapon. In many ways she has stolen it from the Balrog-types, and in turn has heavily feminized this weapon. I think I am going to save the whip to give to her, down the road.

I would also prefer not to have the demon covered in metallic armor plates, with leather straps and buckles, but still have an "armored look" at the same time. It is sometimes hard for me to imagine an ageless demon using similar armor and weapons that humanoids use to do battle and to protect their mortal flesh. Demons are immortal manifestations, and I am sure they would just manifest weapons and armor before they would go manifesting miners, smelters, leatherworkers, blacksmiths, armorsmiths, assistants to help put the armor on, etc. To help represent this, even the axe itself is a living demon, which requires no smithing as it is a living creature. The demorganic (demonic + organic) armor must feel alive and able to grow forth from a demons body. Everything on the demon is organic and alive, and "manifested", not manufactured. The only exception being the loincloth, which kinda has to be there.

To this end, the traditional metallic armor is replaced with a type of "bone armor", which is caused by the demon's skin calcifying and hardening into living armor. The hair is now replaced with rows of scales, and protruding bone spikes from under the skin's surface.

I would also prefer to not have hair on the creature (even tho there is hair in some of this early concept art) because, coming from an environment full of fire, the hair would probably not be very fitting.



Other artists have inspired me with some starting points. Other people made this stuff, not me. Just inspiration.



Here is the basic pose sketch, forward facing, atop a base full of heavy rockwork. In this version, the demon has the bone spines instead of hair, which I think I prefer.



Here is the starting point for the head, tho the hair will probably be replaced with rows of bone spikes. There is also some "demorganic" shoulder armor.



... and some more calcified bone armor. The rows, or "lames", of the armor have it function the same as traditional armor, but without the straps and buckles.



Here are some axe designs. The axe on the right is a big double sided axe that can split itself into two hand axes. The axe is meant to be intelligent, and has a personality and autonomy of his own. That is why the face in the axe has an eye and a pupil, as opposed to the other faces that are found in the bone armor which remain dead and eyeless.








UPDATE:
This is closer to where we are at now. I still need to update the axe. The wings are not show in this picture.




So please go ahead and post a critique. It doesn't matter if you like the designs or not, so long as you post the reasons why you feel the way you do. I will be back here, adding more drawings and WIP, and incorporating the changes that are suggested in this thread.

If you find pictures online that help you explain your thoughts, changes or ideas, then go ahead and re-post them here. If you can draw, it would be extremely stimulating to see what you come up with!

Please do not hit the quote button when replying to this original post, so this big post does not appear over and over again in the thread. Thanks

If there are any contributors who are vigilant and extra-dedicated to this thread, I would like to consider rewarding them with a complete resin-cast miniature of the Rage Demon after it has been sculpted and manufactured. I could give away three to five miniatures this way. The details of this promotion are still being drafted out, but I will keep you informed. In the meantime, post away and I thank you for your support.

Fantastic stuff, i love the concept, the skull axes are a nice idea and will give painters scope to really work their magic on how they look, definitely a fan of the bone protrusions instead of hair but I can't fault the visage, if it looks that good when sculpted then you've got a winner, another part i quite like as a point of difference, in the reference pics the demon with the oversized lower arms! there's something about it i think is really great you don't ofter see that kind of thing when people do demons and with the calcified bone armour you are considering I feel it could also be a nice part that can work for your sculpt over others and also represent a form of armour? other than that I can't really think of any more feedback :-) you've done a great design! now lets see some updates soon eh!

Nerdfest09

Hey thanks for the feedback! Those oversized forearms and hands in the reference pic make the demon much more Hulk-like and powerful looking. I am going to incorporate that into the design and we will see how it looks. Thanks again.

Ok I would be happy to follow and give my input.

If the face isn't going to be more beastial then the hooves should go. I would prefer to see actual feet if the face has no snout.

Honestly the bull like sculpts that are seen so often is getting pretty boring. I would really like to see a more humanoid sculpt.

Excellent point. If the hooves happened as a result of being so bestial, then why not the face? Ill begin making it more demonic and beast-like to justify the hooves. On the other hand, I will make a more humanoid version to juxtapose the beast version, for comparative purposes. I wonder what more humanoid feet might look like?

Thanks for the input. Great points.

Perhaps all 5 digits, but very long talons? I really like the idea of a more humanoid demon. I feel the bull design has been done a whole lot.

I will be following this closely as I own 6 Ultraforge minis and I plan to own this one also!

This one won't be an Ultraforge. Just done by the same designer.

I agree that the bull-face has been done quick a lot. Even the Lord of the Rings movie avoided it, despite Tolkien's descriptions from the book. I am going to start looking for references for the feet.

... and thanks for your support Johnny Crass! I hope you are pleased with this mini when it is done. Stay tuned in and let me know how you find the design going.

I know but still... It has the same flavor and the same air of epicness

I like where you are attempting to go with this, my thoughts:

1. The concept art needs more bone armor, it doesn't really sell me on the idea that its armor, just calcified skin growths, and the armor itself doesn't really protect any of the areas traditionally considered vital in a human; the entire torso is exposed.

It would be cool if you could extend the bone armor to cover most of the body, but do it in a way that aesthetically mimics the musculature. In other words, the armor covers the vast majority of the creatures body, but the individual 'plates' take on the shapes of the various muscle groups. Hell, who is to say that the bone armor itself isn't the creatures muscle? It is, after all, a demonic entity that follows biological and physical laws different from our own. This also do away with the need for the loincloth, which frankly kinda destroys what you're trying to achieve. This will certainly help make your daemon more unique from the other options in this area already out there.

2. The skull on the axe is too humanoid in appearance for my tastes. A bit more gnarled and warped to give it more the appearance of a demonic entity and less that of a stylized skull would be cool. Also, I suggest you push the demorganic concept further, why isn't the axe in a symbiotic relationship with the rage demon? The axe, IMO, rather than being a simple weapon of demonic sentience held in the demons hand should be a parasitic outgrowth of the demons body itself. What would also be cool is if you could make it look more club/hammer-esque. Incorporate the elements of a few different weapon designs to create something unique, a weapon truly befitting of a daemon, rather than a sentient version of a weapon that humans would build. This is a monstrous entity from the pits of hell, a place so warped that the minds of mortals that witness it are forever shattered, why is it carrying something so easily identifiable?

3. The head... I dont like it. I don't know why, but it might be a bit too traditional in appearance. Its just kinda 'meh' to me. It lacks any sort of feature to set it apart from whats already out there, and it lacks the awesome demorganic armor concept that you've created.

I really like your concept of the daemonorganic, etc. but I dont think you've quite pushed the concept as far as you should. You're still firmly in the realm of the familiar, I think you should take the plunge into the realm of the alien.

Here's a nice concept: http://www.dragoart.com/tuts/pics/7/833/3816/how-to-draw-dragon-legs-arms-and-talons.jpg

and another: http://fullmoonmasks.com/library/accessory-talons.jpg

You may get better balance using 4 toes instead of five.

- nerdfest09, I threw in some bigger forearms and hands real quick in Photoshop to see how it looks. Which do you prefer?


- nquisitorlewis, I quickly threw in one of you references into my concept in Photoshop, just to get a feel for it. I am going to put this in my next batch of designs. Thanks again.


chaos0xomega, great points! I have been guilty in the past of being to mild. It is time to kick things up a notch! Let me work on some designs and get back to you.

My pleasure. It seems like there's a ton of different "counts as" models made by a ton of different companies. All of them follow a very similar design concept. IMO it would be nice to see somebody do something completely outside of that template, but still offer a good alternative.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
A nice bone armor concept:
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs27/i/2008/134/9/0/Bone_armor_sketch_by_darkeyez07.jpg

"do something completely outside of that template, but still offer a good alternative. " is a fantastic mission statement.

I did up some quick Photoshop of a more demonic looking axe. This is just a starting point. Improvement?



Here are some references I just found online for a more demonic looking, while still being humanoid, face. I think I would like the "demorganic" bone to form on the chin and cheekbones of our demon.

The boney face concept would work very well if doing a full suit of bone armor, That third face reminds me to much of the one plastic possessed head.

Looks amazing. I love the organic bone lames -- great concept.

My one bit of constructive criticism is that I hate seeing weapons held behind the head if intended to be used for an overhead strike. It's just not something you ever do with a weapon or tool, whether you're trying to hit someone or just splitting logs, because it's so inefficient -- you have to lift it over your head before it reaches the optimal starting point for the blow (which is directly overhead, assuming that gravity and musculature work the same way for demons as for people).

Good point Ian. I could certainly change up the pose for a more effective striking pose with the axe. Thanks for that.


I am just photoshopping some changes to the axe, trying to make it more demonic. I used the halberd shape for the blade, and still am into the idea of it splitting apart. I'll keep working at this. Oh yeah, I also got the axe melding into the arm flesh now.

I like this face. >;}

http://8bitcoma.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/rage.jpg?w=460

I still like the first head and keep the hooves. I just can not stand a daemon with feet

That is a vote for hooves. I hope everyone can chime in one the hoof vs. toe debate!

What if there was a compromise between the two? The LOTR Balrog has a cool hybrid hoof/claw foot. Would something like this suffice?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is kind of a picture of where we are at now, in terms of critique. I will do a completely new sketch of our demon when we get a few more suggestions. Not a bad first day tho! Thanks again.

Jeremy, your past works are AMAZING, I am keepin tabs on this thread. I can't wait for any future stuff you make.

Hey, that means a lot coming from you GG. Thanks bud!

That hybrid is pretty sweet.

We might just want to lean toward the evolutionary in-between of hooves and toes. I think that is what they did with the Balrog.



In contrast to this, the Balor is commonly depicted having human-like toes.

Hi Jeremy,
can't comment much on Daemons, as I usually don't like daemons (but own your big bird daemon ... and treeman BTW). Maybe if the face is less generic. As there are a lot generic big angry daemons around.

Just wanted to say: Nice to hear from you again. Checked your website http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/ since its start and since its redesign, waiting for any activity there. Good that you are returning to sculpting and selling stuff (whatever the reasons were to stop it back then). I will keep checking this thread.

Hey thanks for your support Kroothawk. It is good to be back and designing again.

I have concerns about the face as well. I am going to do some re-designs and we will see how it goes. I think I need that face to get more angular and aggressive looking. Maybe I will do away with the lips and have the teeth coming forth directly from the face, or maybe bone armor on the face? I got work to do!



edit:
Actually, maybe I can start imagining the demon as having "evolved" to being relativity fireproof, in the sense that he can not have any small jutting bits of flesh (like ears, nose or lips, etc.) To this end, he could have a humanoid face but with more demonic elements due to the lack of those bits. It is also in keeping with his fluff.

I'm gonna drum up some references.



edit:
Okay, upon checking out a bunch of lip-less and nose-less demons, I realize that this look is quite severe. Making these changes would dramatically alter the feel of the demon, as he currently is. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? It is also possible to dial down the severe look and make it a bit more subtle, and I feel this may be the way to go.




edit:
So here is my face, but with varying degrees of demonic-ness. I think I like B the best.

Hi Jeremy, I love where you're heading with this and super fast too so it seems! :-) I do prefer the larger forearms and hands, and the idea of the blending into the weapon slightly appeals as well, as far as a face goes for something truly evil and sadistic?... I'll send you a pic of my mum!.... no? o.k how about face C then, it stands out to me as a good mix between beastial savagery and deamonic appearance, perhaps have the two larger side tusks longer or more prominent? even smaller ones under the originals? i'd like to see some concept sketches if you do them?

I can say i'm starting to get quite eager to see this come to fruition, and I'll be purchasing one don't you worry about that! just tell me how and where!

Nerdfest09

Not to have you re-draw the entire concept, but what I might be annoyed with if I bought this model as it is drawn is that some of the fantastic detail on the axe blades might be lost due to the position of the wings. Have you thought about up-swept wings or wings that were back and higher in position and both arms out front? What does the back of the model look like? How close to the back does the blade come?

The concept looks awesome and you are clearly way more talented than I will ever be but just some things to think about. Thanks.

I don't really like the axe head.

If you're going to keep the idea of the hand melting into the axe, why bother having the haft at all? I'd suggest making the hand terminate in an axe-like appendage.

But I do love the bone armor. It looks fantastic.