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Really fantastic work here Jeremy. I must admit I like option "D" the best. Just considering your title (rage demon) the other 3 heads look a bit to human and constrained... option D seems to be totally bestial in it's nature and fitting for a creature that is the embodiment of unbound rage.

Love the pose and the work your doing with the axes. "Wow" covers it nicely.

I was going to say mock up C for the head. It looks the angriest

I like your ideas with the axe head (being a skull or skulls). Daemons of this calibur usually have one of 3 weapons, whip, axe and/or sword. However I think it would be a real change to go with a great maul or mace perhaps modeled with the clasic "2 hands over head swinging down" pose with perhaps some form of sadistic glee showing on the face. The faces of the maul could be daemon skulls with horns pointing out of them (possibly in this vein http://www.monstermarketplace.com/spears-swords-daggers-and-more/spiked-skull-mace-larp-weapon).
As for the head I really like the look of the horns protruding from the "cheeks" or chin as in the 4th reference picture. So I'd vote your third drawing as the best of the 4 you have posted.
I can go either way with the legs. Provided they're rough and particularly vicious looking (splintered, asymetrical for hooves, taloned and lean for "feet" perhaps crushing a skull)

Hey,

Firstly, if you ever want to do some concept work/sculpting for Anvil Industry, email me!!

Secondly the daemon..

I like the concept a lot, but am concerned it will jsut end up another balrog/blood thirster clone, which would be a shame..

I found this image-



I think the head could look great with a few reptilian/dinosaur elements...

Reguarding the armour.. The multi layered skulls looks, IMO, a bit silly.. why would the armour be skull shaped...

I did a quick sketch, see the attachement.

Daemons are not human.. so you dont need to follow the normal rules.. I would have a monster thats got a lot of expose musle, with bony armour plates fused directly to the musculature using the same ligaments which connect our muscles to our skeleton.



Like that.. but attaching to external bony armour plates...

Good luck! I look forward to seeing this progress!

AH

I am digging the Balrog feet compromise and for heads either A or D gets my vote

Anvils hammer wrote:Reguarding the armour.. The multi layered skulls looks, IMO, a bit silly.. why would the armour be skull shaped...

It's clearly an evolutionary adaptation, like tiger stripes. When every battlefield is covered with skulls, skull-shaped armor helps you blend in to the background and hide from the enemy.

Jeremy, I really like the direction you're headed with this! My thoughts:

Jeremy wrote:Good point Ian. I could certainly change up the pose for a more effective striking pose with the axe. Thanks for that.


I am just photoshopping some changes to the axe, trying to make it more demonic. I used the halberd shape for the blade, and still am into the idea of it splitting apart. I'll keep working at this. Oh yeah, I also got the axe melding into the arm flesh now.

I like the halberd concept, I'm quite fond of the design second from the left, im still not entirely sold on the split-axe concept though.

As for the facial concepts, I like C, it looks more gnarled and ancient, like this guy is ready to eff you up, whereas B for some reason reminds me more of a cornered animal snarling at its tormentor. I just dont get the same emotions from B that I do C, it might be the eyes though...

And as for foot v. hoof, I would say go hybrid, do something original! I'm thinking you might get a cool concept if you took the traditional cloven hoof shape and elongated it forwards and gave it a 'toe like' appearance, and it would fit with the demorganic concept too!

Hooves, not toes.
Split hooves, to be specific.
I like your original face, but photoshopped face "b" is definitely more feral and intimidating. Faces C & D are too animalistic for me.
I don't like all of the funky angles on the alternate axe heads. Keep it more traditionally shaped, IMO. A funky shaped axe head would be a huge turn off for me and would definitely make me think twice about a purchase.
I do like the face on your "Axe more demonic?" post

I really like the "Demorganic" armor concept. I think you'd be doing this model a service if you didn't give him (a) a "Demorganic" breast plate or (b) huge and amazingly ripped pecs.
If you don't cover his chest/abdomen in sinewy muscular striations, then it should be covered in armor, IMO.

Of course, you could always sculpt extra armor separately and give the purchaser the option to use it.

Great work, and I cannot wait to see it start to take shape physically.

Eric

I like your ideas with the axe head (being a skull or skulls). Daemons of this calibur usually have one of 3 weapons, whip, axe and/or sword. However I think it would be a real change to go with a great maul or mace perhaps modeled with the clasic "2 hands over head swinging down" pose with perhaps some form of sadistic glee showing on the face. The faces of the maul could be daemon skulls with horns pointing out of them (possibly in this vein http://www.monstermarketplace.com/spears-swords-daggers-and-more/spiked-skull-mace-larp-weapon).
As for the head I really like the look of the horns protruding from the "cheeks" or chin as in the 4th reference picture. So I'd vote your third drawing as the best of the 4 you have posted.
I can go either way with the legs. Provided they're rough and particularly vicious looking (splintered, asymetrical for hooves, taloned and lean for "feet" perhaps crushing a skull)

Also a great idea, such scope for menace with a skull faced mace! and the pose would look equally as intimidating as the original idea?

Jeremy wrote:

2nd axe from the left. More how I see a beserker/ rage thing being armed but just a tad longer. More sharp bits for easy reverse strokes and simple punch forwards when parried a blow.


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Jeremy wrote:

For the feet, especially if going over a rock I think the style to the right looks best. When I see hooves on rock I think mountain goat. However, I would like to see more talons at the end - looks a lot more menancing IMHO.


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Jeremy wrote:"do something completely outside of that template, but still offer a good alternative. " is a fantastic mission statement.

I did up some quick Photoshop of a more demonic looking axe. This is just a starting point. Improvement?



Here are some references I just found online for a more demonic looking, while still being humanoid, face. I think I would like the "demorganic" bone to form on the chin and cheekbones of our demon.

With regard to face and the rock/ bone sticky out bits on the face and body, I think you are possibly wondering into Doomsday (Superman) territory - not a massive fan. I think the more bestial/ demonic whilst retaining humanoid characterics is best - I am also a fan of too many sharp teeth. I do like the idea of bone plates protecting the body but I think these would look better skin covered i.e as part of the actual skeleton - like it had been breed for war from the inside up.

I love the concept. Providing no hooves this is a 100% buy for me. I also own several Ultraforge pieces and my only complaint about those was the face being a bit too "nice" and almost bland. Great work and it is awesome to see you back to sculpting.

Fantastic work so far.

I'd prefer not to see traditional hooves, particularly for a beast of this size, posed on a rocky outcropping. Hooves are intended for four-legged animals, where weight distribution is more consistent and controllable. Looking at the image in your first post, I expect the hoof to slide off the pinnacle of the stone. Toes also allow more force to be put into swinging a weapon.

I like the hybrid toes, which retain the non-human look, but still has a practical, flexible use.

I like the inclusion of more bone armour as well. It's a unique aspect that raises your concept above other Balrog clones. It'll also be damned fun to paint I was a huge fan of Rackham's dragons, where as much attention was paid to the skin textures and variations as the overall dynamic pose. It allows for more creativity when painting large models IMHO.

A great silhouette really catches the eye even without a drop of paint, and I love what you have here. The bone textures are all gravy.

Face-wise, I'm torn between B and C. B retains more intelligence, but C personifies "rage". I think C also allows for more interesting textures to tie in with the bone armour.

Oh, and perfect job on the horns. I like that they complement the forward leaning pose, rather than horns that run perpendicular to the head like a bull.

So, yeah. Did I say wow? 'cause, WOW.

Oh, and I want one of those axes. Those look fantastic. reminds me of the face in the Necronomicon from Evil Dead. An axe with personality? Yes please! It does give me another reason for preferring face C; the axe shouldn't be more animated and creepy than the dude wielding it

Guys! SO much good information here. Lots of useful stuff.

I will do my best to address each point in my upcoming designs. There are obviously going to be conflicting opinions, but most of what is being talked about can be directly applied to the design.

Before I crashed yesterday I did a quick sketch for the face, and did a quick color job this morning to help differentiate the bone from the skin. I did slightly different proportions in each, so one has a smaller face, one has curved in teeth, etc. You can pick your fave, or suggest changes to this design if you like.




I still want to apply some tusks to the head and get some thoughts on that. I am also going to start nailing down that weapon, whether it is the trinity of weapons, the joined weapons that splits in two, or the arm-melded axe blades.

I am now going to make a tea and closely read this entire thread over again! I don't want to miss anything. Thanks again.

I approve!For whatever reason I feel drawn to B, but the differences are so subtle I probably wouldnt notice a difference in the end product

The changes are pretty subtle. I think I prefer B.

Jeremy wrote:The changes are pretty subtle. I think I prefer B.

Agreed on B.

Foot wise - I still think a hybrid approach works best, almost lizard like for grip. I think the concept of something like this gripping a horse in its foot whilst pound the living daylights out of its rider.

I cant help thinking that the dynamics of the pose would greatly benefit from a tail flicking out behind to provide balance? Nothing too large or cumbersome. A rather lithe and thin tail, like on a succubus?

brainscan wrote:I cant help thinking that the dynamics of the pose would greatly benefit from a tail flicking out behind to provide balance?

It would indeed help with the balance. A tail would swing the design from more humanoid to more bestial in a way.

To be honest, this is my reasoning with the tail, and you can tell me if Im just being silly...
If our demon has a tail, it would then stand to reason that the "species" known as demon would commonly all have tails, at least in the particular universe our demon lives in. I plan on sculpting several more demons down the road, and a few of the demons I have planned would not suit tails. There is a sexy female demon, whose butt I want to show off! That tail, coming forth from her tailbone, is going to mess things up for her butt cleavage (or B.C.) There is also a big bloated frog-like demon, who will probably not suit a tail as well.

Every demon in this universe has sentient weapons, and demorganic armor (demonic+organic), horns, half-beast legs... and I kind of imagine that the same basic genus of demon had been corrupted and imbued with a distinct demonic tinge, changing their body to reflect the corruption but also resembling the original genus.

Having said that, not all these demons that are planned have wings either, so if that is the case, why cant some have tails and other not, just like the wings?

I'd love to hear more opinions on the matter.


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Anvils hammer wrote:Hey,


I think the head could look great with a few reptilian/dinosaur elements...

Reguarding the armour.. The multi layered skulls looks, IMO, a bit silly.. why would the armour be skull shaped...

I did a quick sketch, see the attachement.

Daemons are not human.. so you dont need to follow the normal rules.. I would have a monster thats got a lot of expose musle, with bony armour plates fused directly to the musculature using the same ligaments which connect our muscles to our skeleton.


AH

Excellent points Anvils hammer. The skulls might look a bit cheesy fantasy right now. I am hoping to warp and distort them more, concealing the obviousness of them being skulls. In the designs I am doing for other demons in this range, they have a lot of faces and mouths and eyes popping out of their skin, and I wanted this demon to have all his eyes and faces look dead.

I like the idea of fusing bone armor to exposed muscle and ligaments. That would really give me the chance to go hyper-detailed with this creatures anatomy. The only issue I have with that is that exposed muscles might look a little too zombie-like and undead if not done right. Ill do some tests and see how this goes.

I also love the gator rows-of-scales. Gator flesh in general would suit the more salamander-type look to this Rage Demon. When I saw the original airbrushed maquette of the Weta Balrog, I thought that they were really using an alligator or other amphibious inspiration to their painting....


Thanks for the input, and extra thanks for the drawing!


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Hey, after looking at that WETA balrog nose I started thinking about some nose variations. These range from the more human to the more demonic look.

B

I like c, though I cant help but feel im subconsciously helping you recreate the balrog

b works pretty well otherwise

I think that is exactly the case chaos0xomega. The WETA Balrog has features that I like, but our demon must have key changes for the sake of originality. I think our cheekbones, lower jaw and other things are original enough as is, and the rest had to be watched out for.

I am leaning toward B personally. I could morph B and C into the original in order to tone down the demonic-ness as well.

well wait, does a demon need nostrils at all? Your call, just making an observation, otherwise I'd go w/ b.

I like head B and the original nose of Nose A. they look similar, but not exactly the same.
I'm not a fan of "slits in the head for nostrils."

Also... Yes. Tail.
I'm thinking it would probably have demorganic armor at the base and some sort of chitinous, barbed or bladed end. Nothing to flamboyant. Just simple and deadly looking.
Of course, if you REALLY want to make it different, you could experiment with a forked or double tail.

Eric

I think I prefer the B nose.

Great job on the face btw. You really did a great job getting away from the typical designs. I really like what's going on with the head.

OT: BTW I have been closely looking at the UF Dragon you did a few years back. What a wonderful model. He may have to get added to my collection.

In a strange way, the nose shape really ties in with how human and how intelligent this creature is. I am working on some new drawings that contain many changes, and should be able to post them tomorrow.

Hey, since our demon currently has no tail.... or whip... why not give him a whip tail? To quote Tenacious D: "Whip-crack went his whippy tail!" If the demon has a weapon in each hand, that becomes three weapons?

We could have the tail slightly thinner, as mentioned before, and perhaps demorganic barbs at the end? The entire spine is boney and spikey and this could easily flow into a tail. What do you think?

I would like to see a tail. I think the daemon has some dragon like elements that will really help set him apart.

I love how you're heading with the head (pun intended). I would just like to comment on the scale: it looks more terrifying if it has a smaller head in proportion to its body. It makes the body look more imposing, and would also fit a rage demon's concept: a smaller brain that is more prone to rage.

Also, cuteness are more relegated to creatures with big heads in proportion with the body. There's that. That's why we find babies cute, and not bodybuilders.

Good point about the head size. Ill begin to scale that down immediately. You are absolutely right about it being on the slightly bigish side. I was wondering why this demon was looking so darn cute!

I just quickly did up some inspiration art. Here you can see the arms are bigger, the face is nastier and a little smaller, there is more demorganic bone armor, and no loin cloth.

I am loving it so far! But what is this I hear about more demons after this one? You sir must hate my wallet with a burning passion.

Jeremy wrote:In a strange way, the nose shape really ties in with how human and how intelligent this creature is. I am working on some new drawings that contain many changes, and should be able to post them tomorrow.

Hey, since our demon currently has no tail.... or whip... why not give him a whip tail? To quote Tenacious D: "Whip-crack went his whippy tail!" If the demon has a weapon in each hand, that becomes three weapons?

We could have the tail slightly thinner, as mentioned before, and perhaps demorganic barbs at the end? The entire spine is boney and spikey and this could easily flow into a tail. What do you think?

I'm imagining a bonelike barbed tail... and it looks awesome (in my head), give it a go?

ALSO, love the new concept art!!! Great direction! Can't wait to see a more detailed concept piece!

Love the changes so far!

Stick with A for the nose. As you say, it adds intelligence. I really dislike nose C, as it looks undead.

For the eyes, I like B. A bit of a squint looks more eeeeeeeevil.

I think the tail could be cool, but I'm not sure about "whip-like". It seems he's all about the strength and bulk, and I'd want to see a tail that echos that, and maybe isn't too long.

I love the bone cod-piece. It works so much better than the loin-cloth. I can never figure out why demons are the epitome of evil and corruption, but get embarrassed at the thought of their bits hanging out. I think this gives the best of both worlds; you can hide the bits but not with an artificial cover.