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Ovion wrote:

Exergy wrote:They dont have a good way to kill walkers in CC

The Talos would like a word with you about that.
Str7, T7 Monstrous Creature with D6+1 attacks of goodness, can happily go toe to toe with just about anything.
Load it up with a TL Haywire Blaster or TL Heatlance and it's brilliantly effective at both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle. I like to throw in a TL Liquifier Gun for the giggles too.

This ^^^^ plus chainflails let us reroll that D6 to avoid a 1 or 2. So 5 S7 attacks on average if you charge us. With S and T 7 with 2d6 armor pen? Yeah bye bye. In my coven list I have two.

Also 9 wyches with 1 shardnet and haywires will do the same thing. You get one attack that we should be safe from. and then 9 haywires back. All it takes is one imobilised to have serrious problems from the walker.

about that math
2 shots bs 3 s10 vs:
- 4+ cover: 2*3/6*1*1/2=is actualy 0.5
- 5+ invul: 2*3/6*1*2/3=is a.66

so all in all, with a Tfex shot, you pop .58 DE transports a turn - well, at least get a shaken ^^, the actual popping is only .29, exc if you shoot it to immo when it takes the cover save, in that case, you have a .386 chance to glue it to the ground.
but in reality, dice are more like crazy people playing bowling in a golf park with baseball bats. Well they are, unless you appease the dice god(s)/godess(').

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Beckett wrote:

Rupture Cannon is a BS 3 2 shot 10/4, so... 2[shots](1/2)[BS3](2/3)[FF](2/3)[imo+] = .44

You just dont know math. You cant have any meaningfull average from 2 shots, you need more dice to have any usable average restults.

Knowledge of Rupture Fex killing 0.44 Venoms Per turn if it fired for 20 turns doesnt matter if you fire 3 turns in 2 games.

So you would in reality need to sacrifice all 3 groups plus a minimum of 4 more lance shots to statistically bring the T-Fex down

??? DE have effective 48 lance range, 3 Ravagers and some Raiders is more then enough to kill T-Fex per Turn.
For example Rupture Cannon is far more likely to not do any damage at all then say Impaler Cannon.
Its spread of probablities of results that is usefull, not average.

If you dont care about those things, better just stick to experience, your brain will sort this out for you.

Wow, there is so much irony in this post it tickles me. I clearly demonstrated, with my knowledge of math, that you need at least 16 lance shots to reliably take down a T-Fex in one turn. You continue to ignore this fact and your rebuttal is I need to lay off the math and let experience sort things out for me there chief?

I think I've pretty clearly demonstrated that understand the math quite well. You've clearly demonstrated that you think a 25% chance occurrence is "Pretty big chances to miss" and that you don't understand probabilities in aggregate with statements like "Knowledge of Rupture Fex killing 0.44 Venoms Per turn if it fired for 20 turns doesnt matter if you fire 3 turns in 2 games."

So, um, grats, I guess.

So what else would those DL be firing at? Genestealers? In a 2K game I can down 1 and a half T-Fexes a turn and have plenty left for the small guys.
16 lance shots is rather easy to aquire. 9 from ravagers, 2 from my raiders (I don't make a list for my opponent's army) and then 2 squads of trueborn actually takes me to 19. Then you still have 5 blasters and 7 venoms that haven't fired yet.

So what else would those DL be firing at? Genestealers? In a 2K game I can down 1 and a half T-Fexes a turn and have plenty left for the small guys.
16 lance shots is rather easy to aquire. 9 from ravagers, 2 from my raiders (I don't make a list for my opponent's army) and then 2 squads of trueborn actually takes me to 19. Then you still have 5 blasters and 7 venoms that haven't fired yet.

Lance also shares target priority with the many many multi wound T4 models in the nid codex, so the more targets you can saturate for that weapon the better. Also, any blaster has to get 18" away, which generally means assault range for the nids.

NeutronPoison wrote:I feel your pain as 'Nids against Dark Eldar.

Siphen wrote:
They have all the elite killing power in the world (lances, disintegrator cannons, cheap poison weapons everywhere). Thanks to lances and blasters everywhere, they can easily deal with lots of armor, even AV 14.

This is where you're wrong. DE can deal with AV14, but they don't deal all that well with lots of armor. Think about it. 3 Ravagers: 9 S8 shots. 3 Long Fangs packs: 15 S8 shots, can split fire. 3 Psyfledreads: 12 twin-linked S8 shots, can ignore suppression. Of the three, the Ravager is by far the least durable. Imperials get meltaguns, Dark Eldar don't. It all combines to make it a little bit difficult for DE to deal wtih light mech spam. They have to rely on shaken and stunned results to keep things out of the fight.

Umm, Dark eldar have the three ravagers, and 3-5 vehicles with dark lances on them, with occupants who will most likely have 1-4 dark lance blasters (which dont lose effectiveness the further away from the target you are) and then 2-3 vehicles with assaulty as bowls occupants and moar dark lance. So no, only venom spam lists have a problem with alot of armor. My deldar lists have NO problem with high amounts of armor or hordes

One: Large number of srt 4 or higher shots
Two: Taking out their transports. Take away their mobility and they are sitting ducks.
Three: Maintain control of the battle field. Dark Eldar's main strategy is to make the opponent play into their trap. Keep your army mas mobile as possible and strike when you get opportune moments.

Im not sure that a lot of the people posting possible nid suggestions VS DE have seen what a competent DE list and player can do to ANY nid build. First off, it only takes about about 9-11 lances to kill a tyrranofex, 6-7 hits, 5-6 wounds, that’s it. Regarding FNP, if you give your gaunts FNP, the tervigons die to splinter fire, if you give the tervigons FNP, they die to lance fire and then the remaining gaunts get splinter cannoned into oblivion. Venomthropes typically die first turn to massed lance fire (priority target even over tyrannofexs and hiveguard). And all this is leaving out the fact that if the DE player is fully kitted out with night shields, nothing outside of a heavy venom cannon or Rupture cannon is going to get a chance to shoot. Regarding no CC, I don’t know many high end DE lists that don’t incorporate at least 1 beastpack/wyche/wrack squad, all of which do exceedingly well vs nids in CC.

As for what keeps DE players up at night, Psyflemen dread spam, more than 3 of those buggers and I’m scrambling. Anything else can be dealt with. AV 12 spam is tough, but with proper deployment, you can eventually wear the opponent down by constantly shaking/stunning/destroying almost every vehicle in range before hitting it with a anti-vehicle CC threat like a beastpack or haywire wyches. The big exception to that is hydra and vendetta spam…that’s just mean….

I have found that drop pod nids against DE work best. My list had some carnifexes in pods, a bunch of warrior units with s5 shooting in pods and so on. I've tried various options and drop pods have always been the closest of my games, otherwise I just get shot up and cry because I can't make a 4+ cover/armor save =(.

well...dropin in on DE has its advantages, except when the DE list is also dropping in on the adversary. Im haemoning meny meny ideas in to my grotesque - not the model, the idea - list, molding the tortured flesh in to an exoskeleton harder than that of the blessed landraiders of the black templar.

to be honest against nid: target everything with 4+saves or worse w splinter weapons, and hack the rest in to anything better than that. Or, if you plan on useing poison to bring down the tfex, you can alwayse use disintegrator to take out everything else. Against hordes, id advise blasterborn and swap all lances to those nice s5ap2 gunz.
oppinion only, but works against hordes. and if im 18" from a tfex w m blasterborn, that means everything else is dead around it.

back to topic: we are seeing the weaknesses posted over and over, and we see the solutions to those problems. Cant we just make a nother topic on backing out DE weaknesses?? ^^

The main problem I found with DE is that to much hangs on who goes first.
DE can put out so many DL's they have a high chance to cripple (or get lucky and destroy) the enemies transports or any other high priority targets even at round one since they are fast veichles and the damn DL have 36" range. Also the fact that even their Raider can kill a Landraider makes no veichle go safe.
But if the enemy goes first then DE will most likely lose alot of veichles and in return firepower/transport since their paperthin armor and open topped make them almost to easy kill and since its round one they havent gotten the chanse to turbo boost or "hide".

deployment is the answer to your problem deploy in cover, dont give los to enemies, hide as meny of your vehicles as you can, and on your turn start popping tanks that are left to be crippled, and mind your movement to keep los blockade from the non crippled - minimum shaken or better - vehicles.

Yeah, DE is fast enough to redeploy at will, by rights you should be deploying always expecting to go second, and deploy in cover + where no one can see you.

As a DE general you really need to be accounting for everything, If you've gone first, assume they're going to steal initiative, if you go second, assume you won't sieze, unless it's obvious they won't, behave as if they'll be in combat turn 1 and / or can and will pop every boat you own (generally they can).

Whether it'll happen or not isn't the point - denying them the oppurtunity to is.

If you do this regardless of what happens you'll have likely denied the enemy of their first turn of shooting, and probably forced them into nice little shooting galleries for you, and in your turn you can take full advantage of that.

That's why null deployment armies, a force with as much speed or generally doesn't move can be an issue for us, because 1: we don't know where you'll be coming from. 2: you can redeploy as well as us. 3: We have to come to you regardless.

enfernux wrote:no killing walkers and or tanks?
a squad of 10 wytches w haywire grenades usually leave a tank in ruins. The klaivex with demiklaves also has a neat chance of popping a walker. A few haem weapons can do the trick to.
Or just shoot a squad of walkers with a squad of blasterborn. What about reavers? 36" across the field in to cover, HnS through a line of enemy infantry than heatlance next turn.
What about our missiles? Or bombs? DE have a neat combination to pop vehicles - even walkers - you just have to read everything meny times. My only problem is they dont have an HQ that allows reavers to be taken as troops :(

squad of 10 wyches attack, score 5 hits which are 1 pen and 3 glances. Chance of destruction is low, chance of suppressing it for a turn is very high.

DE missiles, mostly Str 6, not exactly tank busting gold

Klaivex have str 3, boosted to str 5 with the demiklaves. That isnt going to scratch a dread. With FC it might get a glance but thats not gonna win it for you.

Blasters and DL are great, but they are much more likely to stun/immobilize/weapon destroy then they are to kill something. If you really need to kill something your only option is to fire many many many units at it.

Heat lances do indeed kill things.

Use as many heavy and splatter weapons you can get your hands on. Your only choice is to kill as many as you can at once.

And Talos are a VERY reliable way of vehicle killing.

For example, earlier today a Talos strolled through and immobilised 1 dread, and killed 3 more, before finally going down to the 4th dread.

on the subject of dreadnought: in cc, you fight its rear armor, that is 10. with s5, multi hits and with s4 incubi, thats gona hurt, even if most of them are glances.
8 incu on the charge is 24 attacks
1 klaivex is 4.
24*1/2*1/6 that is 2 glances
4*1/2*1/3 is still a 0.67 to do anything.
slim, but can happen.
btw on the wytches: if the dread is immo, got shaken/stunn is enough for me to take it out next turn. A WD for the DCC is better, so it only has an s5 in hitting my little ladies. but on the thought of numbers:
has a ws value, so hitting is 50%. 5 hits, yeah. 5*1/6 0.83 to get a pen, 5*5/6= is a 4.16 for a glance. Rolling to glance *4/6 2 things will definetly occur. if it is at least a stunn or a wd, im happy if both, well im replacing the laughing god of the eldar

enfernux wrote:on the subject of dreadnought: in cc, you fight its rear armor, that is 10. with s5, multi hits and with s4 incubi, thats gona hurt, even if most of them are glances.
8 incu on the charge is 24 attacks
1 klaivex is 4.
24*1/2*1/6 that is 2 glances
4*1/2*1/3 is still a 0.67 to do anything.
slim, but can happen.
btw on the wytches: if the dread is immo, got shaken/stunn is enough for me to take it out next turn. A WD for the DCC is better, so it only has an s5 in hitting my little ladies. but on the thought of numbers:
has a ws value, so hitting is 50%. 5 hits, yeah. 5*1/6 0.83 to get a pen, 5*5/6= is a 4.16 for a glance. Rolling to glance *4/6 2 things will definetly occur. if it is at least a stunn or a wd, im happy if both, well im replacing the laughing god of the eldar

You don't fight rear armor against walkers.

enfernux wrote:on the subject of dreadnought: in cc, you fight its rear armor, that is 10. with s5, multi hits and with s4 incubi, thats gona hurt, even if most of them are glances.
8 incu on the charge is 24 attacks
1 klaivex is 4.
24*1/2*1/6 that is 2 glances
4*1/2*1/3 is still a 0.67 to do anything.
slim, but can happen.
btw on the wytches: if the dread is immo, got shaken/stunn is enough for me to take it out next turn. A WD for the DCC is better, so it only has an s5 in hitting my little ladies. but on the thought of numbers:
has a ws value, so hitting is 50%. 5 hits, yeah. 5*1/6 0.83 to get a pen, 5*5/6= is a 4.16 for a glance. Rolling to glance *4/6 2 things will definetly occur. if it is at least a stunn or a wd, im happy if both, well im replacing the laughing god of the eldar

Wrong on all counts

You cannot hit rear armor on a dread unless it is immobilized. So incubi will hit its AV12 unless its immobilized then all hits go on the AV10

Fighting with grenades against an unimobilized dread requires 6s to hit. Once immobilized you can hit with WS as normal

Thus the BEST thing that you can get on a dread short of wrecked is immobilized, it makes them soooo much easier to take out.

dreads are Str 6 base without a DCCW, still enough to ignore FNP on wyches.

Page 73, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook wrote:
Walkers and Assaults
Models hitting a walker in close combat always roll for penetration against its front armour.

The only bonus to immobilising it is it loses 1 attack (to a min of 1) and grenades hit on straight WS instead of 6.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

enfernux wrote:on the subject of dreadnought: in cc, you fight its rear armor, that is 10. with s5, multi hits and with s4 incubi, thats gona hurt, even if most of them are glances.
8 incu on the charge is 24 attacks
1 klaivex is 4.
24*1/2*1/6 that is 2 glances
4*1/2*1/3 is still a 0.67 to do anything.
slim, but can happen.
btw on the wytches: if the dread is immo, got shaken/stunn is enough for me to take it out next turn. A WD for the DCC is better, so it only has an s5 in hitting my little ladies. but on the thought of numbers:
has a ws value, so hitting is 50%. 5 hits, yeah. 5*1/6 0.83 to get a pen, 5*5/6= is a 4.16 for a glance. Rolling to glance *4/6 2 things will definetly occur. if it is at least a stunn or a wd, im happy if both, well im replacing the laughing god of the eldar

You don't fight rear armor against walkers.

Correct. You hit vehicles rear armor. The brb has a nice paragraph on why walkers aren't hit on the rear armor and are always hit in cc on the front armor. Incubi can't hurt Dreads, except a Klaivex w/ demiklaives using it as +2S with furious charge, and can still only glance due to AV12 front armor. Incubi would get slaughtered by a dread. Wyches w/ haywires can tarpit dreads, and possibly kill them if the dread isn't immobilised before assaulting, and stands a very good chance of killing one if it's immobilised before assaulting. A Talos is about the only thing in our codex that can effectively kill a dreadnought in cc. It's the best thing in our codex for killing vehicles in fact. The problem is that it's slow and needs a wwp to get there.

Exergy wrote:

enfernux wrote:on the subject of dreadnought: in cc, you fight its rear armor, that is 10. with s5, multi hits and with s4 incubi, thats gona hurt, even if most of them are glances.
8 incu on the charge is 24 attacks
1 klaivex is 4.
24*1/2*1/6 that is 2 glances
4*1/2*1/3 is still a 0.67 to do anything.
slim, but can happen.
btw on the wytches: if the dread is immo, got shaken/stunn is enough for me to take it out next turn. A WD for the DCC is better, so it only has an s5 in hitting my little ladies. but on the thought of numbers:
has a ws value, so hitting is 50%. 5 hits, yeah. 5*1/6 0.83 to get a pen, 5*5/6= is a 4.16 for a glance. Rolling to glance *4/6 2 things will definetly occur. if it is at least a stunn or a wd, im happy if both, well im replacing the laughing god of the eldar

Wrong on all counts

You cannot hit rear armor on a dread unless it is immobilized. So incubi will hit its AV12 unless its immobilized then all hits go on the AV10

Fighting with grenades against an unimobilized dread requires 6s to hit. Once immobilized you can hit with WS as normal

Thus the BEST thing that you can get on a dread short of wrecked is immobilized, it makes them soooo much easier to take out.

dreads are Str 6 base without a DCCW, still enough to ignore FNP on wyches.

You always hit walkers against WS. Always.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Exergy wrote:

enfernux wrote:on the subject of dreadnought: in cc, you fight its rear armor, that is 10. with s5, multi hits and with s4 incubi, thats gona hurt, even if most of them are glances.
8 incu on the charge is 24 attacks
1 klaivex is 4.
24*1/2*1/6 that is 2 glances
4*1/2*1/3 is still a 0.67 to do anything.
slim, but can happen.
btw on the wytches: if the dread is immo, got shaken/stunn is enough for me to take it out next turn. A WD for the DCC is better, so it only has an s5 in hitting my little ladies. but on the thought of numbers:
has a ws value, so hitting is 50%. 5 hits, yeah. 5*1/6 0.83 to get a pen, 5*5/6= is a 4.16 for a glance. Rolling to glance *4/6 2 things will definetly occur. if it is at least a stunn or a wd, im happy if both, well im replacing the laughing god of the eldar

Wrong on all counts

You cannot hit rear armor on a dread unless it is immobilized. So incubi will hit its AV12 unless its immobilized then all hits go on the AV10

Fighting with grenades against an unimobilized dread requires 6s to hit. Once immobilized you can hit with WS as normal

Thus the BEST thing that you can get on a dread short of wrecked is immobilized, it makes them soooo much easier to take out.

dreads are Str 6 base without a DCCW, still enough to ignore FNP on wyches.

You always hit walkers against WS. Always.

UNLESS you're using grenades THEN you need 6's to hit unless they are immobilized then, and only then, do you use WS.

No, you require 6's to hit walkers with grenades, You only hit on standard WS for grenades once it is immobilised.
Standard attacks hit against standard WS though.

Go read page 73 of your rulebook, I can't be bothered to type the rest of it out here.

Standard Grotesques are great for tarpitting a dread too.
A squad of 3-4 Grotesques has a reasonable chance of immobilising it, or more importantly - taking out it's DCCW(s) on the charge. If you've managed to drop its DCCW it can only do manage 1 wound a turn if it's lucky, and so it's stuck there until something like my talos appears to smack it in the face.

Uriens Grots can kill them, but they're a bit pricey in general.

I actually find DE easy to fight with my nids. In a tournament your kinda screwed because you need a very specific list to beat them, but if you have that list it's not bad. Here are a few tips.

Use hormagaunts, they are fast and have 5 initiative, also pack a few groups of 30 because unlike the DE you can get bigger troops.

Use adrenal glands to get that needed bonus in initiative you will find hormagaunts will match those pesky wyches. Also the bonus in strength will mean wounding on 3+ and 2+ for genestealers.

Take the broodlord, his hypnotic gaze is fantastic for nullifying the special units in melee.

Gargoyles with adrenal glands and toxin, once again fast with a some shooty and can glance those skimmers. Also bring them in hordes to keep them from running circles around you. 2 groups of 20 is only 320

Possibly the only use for warriors, the venom cannon is much stronger against open topped vehicles and that 4+ poison will mean much less to a warrior than a monstrous creature.

Hive guard, tough as nails, in close combat they will be hard fore them to hurt and offer good shots.

And finally and possibly most important. the VENOMTHROPE he is everything you will need, 5+ cover save for everyone and arms your units with defensive grenades with dangerous terrain for the enemy if they want to assault. It then becomes dangerous for them to assault you.

with this set You can match initiative and deal out easy wounds on the charge and the gargoyles will funnel their movements.

Autocannons

Trance_Phoenix wrote:I actually find DE easy to fight with my nids. In a tournament your kinda screwed because you need a very specific list to beat them, but if you have that list it's not bad. Here are a few tips.

Use hormagaunts, they are fast and have 5 initiative, also pack a few groups of 30 because unlike the DE you can get bigger troops.

Use adrenal glands to get that needed bonus in initiative you will find hormagaunts will match those pesky wyches. Also the bonus in strength will mean wounding on 3+ and 2+ for genestealers.

Take the broodlord, his hypnotic gaze is fantastic for nullifying the special units in melee.

Gargoyles with adrenal glands and toxin, once again fast with a some shooty and can glance those skimmers. Also bring them in hordes to keep them from running circles around you. 2 groups of 20 is only 320

Possibly the only use for warriors, the venom cannon is much stronger against open topped vehicles and that 4+ poison will mean much less to a warrior than a monstrous creature.

Hive guard, tough as nails, in close combat they will be hard fore them to hurt and offer good shots.

And finally and possibly most important. the VENOMTHROPE he is everything you will need, 5+ cover save for everyone and arms your units with defensive grenades with dangerous terrain for the enemy if they want to assault. It then becomes dangerous for them to assault you.

with this set You can match initiative and deal out easy wounds on the charge and the gargoyles will funnel their movements.

Not alot of good suggestions here. Venomthropes die first turn to lance fire. Followed quickly by warriors. And without FNP or a cover save you will lose a 30 man squad of guants a turn. Gargoyles have to get within 6" to hit DE vehicles with nightshields and at that range they are splinter rifle and wrack/beastpack food.

Since jumping on board the Venom train I have yet to fail to table a tyranid player. Whether its stealershock, drop nids, tervigon spam, etc. Its not the nid players fault, its just not a fair matchup.

ok, i missed that and i usually have to fight eldar walkers 10 all around. Sry on that.
getting wytches there....hmm...24" assault range enough? in average a DE does that. 12" vehicle 2.99" for the further side of your model base, average roll of 3" for run, thats 17.99" +6" for the assault, and then getting on the grenades. a squad of blasterborn or two can give a high possibility that the dread will be immo-d.

But if i stay with my original shooty DE, that dreds gona have a lot of lance hits.

on the walkers, yes, im beaten, but i'm more afraid of an IG vendetta spam, than a lone dreadnought.

Venomthropes behind troops gain a 4+ cover, in open a 5+ A lance can kill them on the first turn but I've kept them alive for awhile with the 5+ cover, it also means that gun isn't targeting other units. Warriors can be ID but still better than having a trygon go down and easier to keep safe or in cover meaning the bonus of having a powerful lance doesn't hurt you as much.

Also 2 groups of 2 venoms is surprisingly durable.

Gargoyles can move 12" and assault 6" giving them 18" to catch and glance 10 Armour. You use their guns to shoot troops.

A tervigon can be a good HQ with feel no pain, but I find the warriors a little more useful.

However this is just the army I use and it seems to work really well. I don't loose often from them anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the parasite in a group of gargoyles is good against DE, their low toughness means more rippers to be spawned and used to tar pit their stuff. Not to mention strength 6 means a good chance to hurt vehicles.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Venomthropes behind troops gain a 4+ cover, in open a 5+ A lance can kill them on the first turn but I've kept them alive for awhile with the 5+ cover, it also means that gun isn't targeting other units. Warriors can be ID but still better than having a trygon go down and easier to keep safe or in cover meaning the bonus of having a powerful lance doesn't hurt you as much.

Also 2 groups of 2 venoms is surprisingly durable.

Gargoyles can move 12" and assault 6" giving them 18" to catch and glance 10 Armour. You use their guns to shoot troops.

A tervigon can be a good HQ with feel no pain, but I find the warriors a little more useful.

However this is just the army I use and it seems to work really well. I don't loose often from them anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the parasite in a group of gargoyles is good against DE, their low toughness means more rippers to be spawned and used to tar pit their stuff. Not to mention strength 6 means a good chance to hurt vehicles.

3 Ravagers with lances will kill 3 venomthropes with 4+ cover on average per turn. Then venoms followup and murder whatever troops no longer have cover. And all this is happening while the entire army moves 12" towards whichever flank is the most vunerable/weakest. It is a dance of death that a footslogging nid list has no real way of surviving.

The parasite? He MAY get one chance to make ripper swarms provided a vehicle is destroyed and he gets to the troops inside.

The best chance 'Nids have is full reserve outflank/deepstrike list as it gives the DE player fewer chances to shoot and gets you in closer.

Regarding earlier comments that a DE player has to go first to win, unless my opponent has overwhelming firepower (longfangs/razorbacks, or hydras/vendettas) I usually prefer to go 2nd as that allows me to counter deploy. I have won alot of games in the deployment phase.

I'm just giving a suggestion that works for nids beating DE, and more times than not that lists wins. Hormagaunts average about 10" a turn so they aren't that slow. Backed up by 12" moving gargoyles you pretty much have a fast attack army. Venoms can also be kept our of line of sight and give cover.

And with a troop flooded army those vehicles don't get to move very far.

Flank a group of genestealers and game set.

Parasite with gargoyles, that is roughly 20 wounds to get to before he gets hit, he generally lives for awhile.

I don't mean to be rude, but this is tried tested, and has worked many times.

DE are heavy hitting, but if you take away the impact of their hit you have a better chance. 4+ poison isn't so good when your used to 3+ wounds on your gaunts.