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It seems the question is "Which codex has the best troop choices?" Not "Which troop choice is the best?" The answer to the second question is Grey Hunters, but SW are most assuredly not the answer to the first. I would say the best codex for troop choices is IG, because they have two of the very best, the Platoon and the Veteran Squad. I can't think of another codex that has two troops that are both better than those two.

BB

Beerbeard speaks the truth

"Which Codex has the best troop choices" should be the central question that needs answering.

IG vets and platoons fall into the top 3, but as far as troop selection goes CSM is still top 3 IMO as well.

Orks as good as they are kind of fall into the category of the Space Wolves. Yeah they're great point wise / efficiency wise but in the end you only have two troop choice with both Codex, which I think knocks them behind IG and CSM with this particular question.

Just my serious 2 cents.

Remember that Nobs can be troops too.

"Which Codex has the best troop choices" has two different meanings to different people. It could mean:

A) Which Codex has the best troop choices if you're forced to look at the bad choices as well as the good.
Or
B) Which Codex has the best troop choices, and feel free to ignore the choices that you'd ignore anyway and spam the one choice that's actually good, as you would in a real game.


To me, it means B. I'm never going to use Rangers in a list, so why would they make Eldar's troop choices worse than if they simply didn't exist?

Remember that Nobs can be troops too.

I guess HQ in mind the Space Puppies get Wolf Guard as well as the other two.

I don't really count it though for da orksies because at the very most they can only have a squad. If they could field Deff Dreads, Nobs, Boyz, OR gretchins to fill their FOC solely it'd be a different story. As it stands you can't fill your troop choice with Nobs or Deff Dreads, You can however fill your troop choice with Wolf Guard though, so I did misspeak.

If you have 2 warbosses you can have 2 nob squads be troops.

On bikes that is a 1500 point army right there. and it isn't a horrible army either.

Draigo wrote:

Oppressor wrote:Grey knights strike squad.

SM staline, storm bolter, FORCEWEAPON and psychic, for 5pts more than a GH... :(

Who get killed off by ork boyz because they dont care about force weapons and make strike squd make over 100 saves. lol

You should really learn to read the original post.

Devil Dog wrote:In your opinion what codex has the best troops and why?

Nothing in there specifies unit size or even units to begin with, much less versus any other unit in any scenario. It's seemingly completely open to interpretation by the poster to base their decision on any criteria they wish with the exception of it being considered "Troops." I take that to mean individual troops. This is in keeping with the original post.

To humor you;
You completely forgot about storm bolters. Force weapons means that 1/3 of the wounds on the remaining boys that survived the storm bolters to finally get into CC that could have been saved, are now 1/3 more deaths, and don't nobs have 2 wounds?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I am not unhappy with Chaos troop choices. While they aren't exactly priced accurately to reflect the current codices they still give you a tool for just about any job.

Knock a few points off each one or give them all force weapons and +1 str psychic ammunition and I'm good.

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

Redbeard wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I agree with everything you are saying. However, Imperial guard power blobs are horrendously effective in close combat and assaults.

But, the way I see it, there are two ways to determine which troops choice is best:

1) In best Troop choice vs best troop choice, who comes out on top? Has to be guard.

2) Troop choice vs other units. Which troop choice can take out other units in game most efficiently? I know that guard again, are very effective.

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I agree with everything you are saying. However, Imperial guard power blobs are horrendously effective in close combat and assaults.

Not as effective as their equivilent in orks. They cost a point more but have a higher toughness, 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge, the guardsmen will need 5s to wound them back. There'd be no contest.

Redbeard wrote:

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I don't know, if you're running into that, then someone is either forgetting to bring commissars, or you've not run into powerblobs before.

Power Blobs are ridiculously stubborn, and they'll usually stay till the last man. I've seen many blobs that will literally keep fighting until only the commissar and 1 other guy was standing, and the commissar will pop the last guy in the head just so he can stay in the fight. Not to mention they can inflict insane amounts of damage before they finally go down if you've kitted them out right. Yeah, an individual guardsman isn't that scary, but once you pile 30 of em into a single assault, with rerollable hits on the charge, furious charge, and tons of hidden PW attacks, they can be incredibly scary in close combat. Not to mention the fact that I believe the guardsmen will strike before the orks in close combat correct? Guardsmen are I 3, I dont know orks Initiative.

Joey wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I agree with everything you are saying. However, Imperial guard power blobs are horrendously effective in close combat and assaults.

Not as effective as their equivilent in orks. They cost a point more but have a higher toughness, 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge, the guardsmen will need 5s to wound them back. There'd be no contest.

I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

DAaddict wrote:Cost is debatable but purely from troop choices I like CSM.

Effective plain jane CSM - upto 20 - higher morale and +1 attack vs standard marines. Interesting options of +1 T, +1 A, +1 I, 5++ saves or rerollable morale.

Very buff units - at a cost- but still troops so they can control objectives. Khorne Berzerkers and/or Plague Marines.

This... Berzerkers and Plague Marines! It definitely says choices, plural! I don't think any other codex has two choices as strong as CSM or as suitable to be used together FTW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ignatius wrote:

Joey wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I agree with everything you are saying. However, Imperial guard power blobs are horrendously effective in close combat and assaults.

Not as effective as their equivilent in orks. They cost a point more but have a higher toughness, 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge, the guardsmen will need 5s to wound them back. There'd be no contest.

I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

Don't rule out the power of Furious charge either!

Ignatius wrote:
I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

Nothing in a blob can take a power fist. Platoon command can take them, and their attached commissar, as well as CCS obviously.
Other than that you'd have to bring a priest with the specific aim of using him in close combat which would be foolish, to say the least.
Blobs are great against terminators and other small, elite group. But orks will lay out a serious amount of power in close combat IIRC at WS4.
Blobs are not supposed to be in assault with other mob units.

Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

Joey wrote:

Ignatius wrote:
I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

Nothing in a blob can take a power fist. Platoon command can take them, and their attached commissar, as well as CCS obviously.
Other than that you'd have to bring a priest with the specific aim of using him in close combat which would be foolish, to say the least.
Blobs are great against terminators and other small, elite group. But orks will lay out a serious amount of power in close combat IIRC at WS4.
Blobs are not supposed to be in assault with other mob units.

Are we talking equal amounts of points or units? Keep in mind I never said orks weren't effective in close combat, nor did I say that guard are better. I said guard can be good in close combat, which was the main selling point of Redbeard. I was merely counter arguing his claim of boyz being best.

However, where orks are dedicated close combat units, guard aren't so much. Guard would fair better against ork boyz in close combat than ork boyz would in a shooting match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

However, orks wouldn't go first, so your example is irrelevent.

You havn't faced a full on shoota boy army.

They can outshoot guard easily and beat up everyone too stupid to die to their shooting.

What codex provides the best troop choices? It depends on how we are defining best.

points efficiency- Orks, all the troop choices are costed incredibly well. 180 guys for less than 1200 pts. hard to argue with that.
adaptability- IG, they can be all roles at once if you put enough points into them.
killing potential- depends on the situation but I would say the grey knight has the options to make them killing machines.
survivability- If we include special units, paladin troops.
board control- Eldar jetbikes or Dire avengers in wave serpents, no one is faster, no one does it better.
the "tim tebow" (special) factor- Grey Hunters, their special rules and MEQ statline make them hard to resist.

In my experience though, if IG ONLY brings troops, they have a decent chance of failing. If Grey Knights only bring troops, they have a good chance of failing. If Space wolves only bring troops they have a good chance of failing. I am going with orks cause you can ONLY bring troops and win.

Grey Templar wrote:You havn't faced a full on shoota boy army.

They can outshoot guard easily and beat up everyone too stupid to die to their shooting.

Not really. Guard vehicles would smash them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ignatius wrote:

Joey wrote:

Ignatius wrote:
I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

Nothing in a blob can take a power fist. Platoon command can take them, and their attached commissar, as well as CCS obviously.
Other than that you'd have to bring a priest with the specific aim of using him in close combat which would be foolish, to say the least.
Blobs are great against terminators and other small, elite group. But orks will lay out a serious amount of power in close combat IIRC at WS4.
Blobs are not supposed to be in assault with other mob units.

Are we talking equal amounts of points or units? Keep in mind I never said orks weren't effective in close combat, nor did I say that guard are better. I said guard can be good in close combat, which was the main selling point of Redbeard. I was merely counter arguing his claim of boyz being best.

However, where orks are dedicated close combat units, guard aren't so much. Guard would fair better against ork boyz in close combat than ork boyz would in a shooting match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

However, orks wouldn't go first, so your example is irrelevent.

I know you weren't saying guard were useless in CC, but against a mob of sluggas they are.
They do go first, so we'll go with that: 27 normal attacks, 16 PW. That's 3.75 and 2.6, 6.3 dead so we can remove 6 orks.
Orks strike back, 89 attacks, 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 dead. You're already down to one man and your sargents/commissars.

Tervigons seem like they would be an incredible troop choice in any other codex, but that opens a real can of worms with all the conditions and whatnot involved.

Lucre wrote:Tervigons seem like they would be an incredible troop choice in any other codex, but that opens a real can of worms with all the conditions and whatnot involved.

Agreed. Otherwise it might of been worth mentioning Paladins, but for simplicity sake I just stuck with what was actually in the troop section.

fleetofclaw wrote:

Garukadon wrote:Tyranid Warriors- 3 w's, 3 A's, Fearless, messes with psykers, 4+ sv ( meh ), power weapons, rending, ID capability, lnitiative reducing wargear, furious charge, assault 3 shooting and they can deep strike. They are expensive but these are a strong contender for best reg. troop choice. If not best than maybe toughest or most dangerous- basically they could easily be elite choices.

And they're horribly slow (sigh, losing the leap option sucked), can be instant deathed by S8 spam, and are overcosted. I'm sorry but with no eternal warrior or invuln save no one takes Warriors in competitive lists. Yes all those things you listed sound nice but those are options, and they're options that come at a price. Can't have everything. Show me a troop choice that does cause I cant think of one. You can set up warriors to be shooty, cc orientated, even capable of taking out tanks in cc. They lack mobility but there is the option to deepstrike them in mycetic spores. What other troop choice has a toughness of 5 to survive S8 spam, let alone Eternal Warrior? My point is: Warriors stats wise and option wise looks like they could be elite troops. If you were to compare apples to apples, troops to troops, it'd be hard to find an equal.
I do think some of the best troop choices do come from the Tyranid codex. Agreed.
Genestealers for life Genestealers- love em, but the fact they dont have 4+ and zero shooting kept them from my 1st choice as best.
And hard to argue with a T6 6 wound model that can cast FNP and poop out more troops squatting on objectives. Thats an HQ choice originally and didnt want to muck up the waters with special allowances, otherwise yeah, they would be hard not to say that is the best.
Outside Nids, love them Boyz and Grey Hunters.

Joey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

I know you weren't saying guard were useless in CC, but against a mob of sluggas they are.
They do go first, so we'll go with that: 27 normal attacks, 16 PW. That's 3.75 and 2.6, 6.3 dead so we can remove 6 orks.
Orks strike back, 89 attacks, 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 dead. You're already down to one man and your sargents/commissars.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but ork sluggas are at I 2 right?

And I'll conceed that boyz are better than guardsmen at CC

I would have to cast my vote for Grey Hunters and CSM, the value they bring, for the points they cost is excellent.

Immortals are good, tough, and have a strong weapon, without having to pay for any upgrades, high leadership, and the chance of getting back up. Just cant get into melee with them.

im gonna vote TYRANIDS.... just because they have a troop option that makes more troops. lol yeah it can die out easily.. but when you have 3 troop tervigons and 2 hq tervigons.....lots of troops will be spawned

Lord_Ghazghkull wrote:im gonna vote TYRANIDS.... just because they have a troop option that makes more troops. lol yeah it can die out easily.. but when you have 3 troop tervigons and 2 hq tervigons.....lots of troops will be spawned

Not to mention that a Tyranid player should have 0 qualms about maxing out their Troop slots.

Ignatius wrote:

Joey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

I know you weren't saying guard were useless in CC, but against a mob of sluggas they are.
They do go first, so we'll go with that: 27 normal attacks, 16 PW. That's 3.75 and 2.6, 6.3 dead so we can remove 6 orks.
Orks strike back, 89 attacks, 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 dead. You're already down to one man and your sargents/commissars.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but ork sluggas are at I 2 right?

And I'll conceed that boyz are better than guardsmen at CC

I2 with FC and fleet. And any Green tide will have Gazz so the Boyz should get the charge most of the time making them strike at the same time as the Guards

What a weird discussion. This is really not pleasant to try to sort out, and when I try, I have to keep asking myself why. Maybe some purpose would help us refine our standards. Can the OP give us some more direction?

I'm suprised people haven't started trying to settle this like men rather than debating like some poncy eldar.

Its time people start lining'em up! Put equivalent values of troop choices 18 inches away from each other and let the dice decide!

This discussion has devolved into e-peen warfare. Nobody actually takes 180 orks seriously anymore (and they never should have). I've never seen 20 man CSM units actually fielded with a straight face. Neither really functions all that well on the table. 180 orks get in each others way, get bound up on terrain, and generally don't live up to their promise of a huge monolithic tide hitting the enemies wall. This only works against idiots who never heard of refused flanks, defense in depth, or other basic tactics. The 20 CSM aren't good since they foot slog, have rapid fire weapons, and you cut into the number of relevant weapons (like things with anti tank and/or AP value that matters). Sorry, bolters aren't why you buy squads. The main purpose for bolters is giving you the ability to stop hordes, not because they are particularly versatile or good.

The best troops have the ability to concentrate force, the ability to dish out a variety of punishment, and either dance out of the way or ignore enemy attacks.

So that being said, Marines (I put all the varieties in this list, they aren't enough different) are probably the best generalist troop.
Eldar (both types) have the best specialist troops, though neither one can really take a hit, speed kills.
Necrons: Both choices have useful fire, though lacking a bit in anti tank. Warriors can take a pretty decent transport. Immortals have assault weapons that are surprisingly effective. Both are extremely survivable even before adding in army synergy.

Armies with ineffective troops:
Tau, FW are nearly useless, and kroot are useful, but weedy.
Daemon troops are amazing value for their assault ability. But their deployment and durability is crippling.

Armies with OK troops:
Orks. Not flexible. But they can spam attacks and take a fair amount of killing to finish off a squad. Though it takes much less to make the squad a non threat.
SoB. Cheap power armor with good BS and good weapon options. Army wide nerfing to powers makes this SoB player into a former SoB player though.
Nids. Weedy unless you use give them cover saves, and/or FNP. The fact that you can makes them a legitimate threat. They are dangerous in assault, and they can take decent anti infantry power. Just not versatile enough.