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I was involved in a friend's Old One Eye breaking (One of the mandibles, I believe) over a decade ago and still feel bad about it.

Pyriel- wrote:If you look in my gallery at my salamanders I spend like 10-15 hours converting and painting per mini, not to mention vehicles.
Had a game with a friend some time ago and while I stacked up my 1850p of salamanders mixed with grey knights (which are even more carefully painted) on one end of the table in order to deploy them my friend managed to turn the whole table upside down so everything fell scattered on the floor everywhere. All broken, banged up and in pieces, some times broken through the plastic instead of glued joints.

I couldnt believe what I saw, I was raging mad at his clumsiness and he was ashen faced on the floor looking for pieces of all those minis. It took us hours and hours again to find, sort and glue everything back together again and repair paint damage. By now it was in the middle of the night and we decided to redo the game and started to deploy our armies....by which he DOES IT ALL OVER AGAIN and puts the table upside down by some super clumsy body move.

By now I am on my way to the kitchen to find a meat axe in order to put a permanent end to is body ever moving again (I figured I can still play against him if he is in a wheel chair and he wont be able to destroy 1850p of my minis that way) while he is on the way to the hall to find his shoes and escape.

LOL

I have to say those models are absolutely beautiful!!! I would have a tough time even playing with them. I'm pretty sure if my "friend" did that to my art work I would have killed him with my bare hands. No time to run to the kitchen. WOW is this friend of yours still around? Do yo play with him?
That was fun, naturally in retrospect, while it happened I was in a state of horror.
Nowdays when we play I keep a constant watch of him and never fail to remind him to keep a watch over his pear shaped super clumsy body.

TBD wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Umm, accidents happen. It's a public place and you've got a lot of delicate things one a table and not in a display case, and lots of events and are crowded or cramped so its very easy to knock something over. Unless the breakage is malicious or an act of clear stupidity (like running around) then I think a lot of the time you just have to suck it up and accept a well meant apology. Not open your wallet and expect a replacement.

For a start there's a lot of people taking Forgeworld stuff to games and that is both very fragile and very expensive. You take on a lot of risk bringing that so having a little bump that breaks it does not mean you are entitled to an exorbitantly priced replacement. A lot of people have the money to slowly to build up an army themselves but not drop money on buying you replacements for your insanely expensive stuff.

So no, unless they smash your stuff by being really stupid like running around the shop like a kid, or deliberately damaging it - simply knocking it over is just an accident. It's easy enough done with all these models being covered in spikes and poles. If you're that worried about having every breakage paid for either leave them at home or get some insurance or something.

I've known things broken and damaged at events and no one ever expected a replacement or cash money even for very expensive models. Accidents happen. When you take your models to an event you carry the burden of covering replacement costs on your models through loss or damage, you don't agree to carry the burden of covering the costs of everyone else's models whatever that might be, which could be hideously expensive if they've brought their DKoK.

Soooo, if for example you happen to have an expensive bicycle (or car), and you ride it on a busy public road, and someone not paying attention runs into you, and it is completely his fault and you are alright but your bike (or car) is broken in half, then "I am sincerely sorry" would suffice, because accidents happen?

Or, suppose you are wearing expensive clothes and you are dining in a crowded restaurant, and the person behind you becomes ill and vomits all over you, or trips and a glass of wine falls on top of you (or both at the same time), which he doesn't do on purpose obviously but your clothes are ruined, then there is no compensation needed because it's an accident?

I am afraid it does not work that way AT ALL.

In both of those examples you are taking your expensive property into the public place and there always is risk. Depending on the severity of damage and certain other factors there definitely are many circumstances where compensation is in order or even required by law (depending on country probably/maybe), despite it only being an accident. This is why people should have insurance, or in case of children their parents should have it.

I really don't think you make a fair comparison. Taking your models down the shop is like going to the pub, not going to a high quality restaurant. If you're in a high quality restaurant and someone spills something then you might expect a dry cleaning cost, not a full replacement. If you get a spill in a pub then you shrug and accept the apology. If you wore your Armani suit to the pub and it got 'ruined' by a spill, you cannot seriously expect someone to buy you a new one. And the same applies to someone taking their expensive miniatures to a shop IMO.

The expensive restaurant example is probably closest to a high quality painting competition, and in that case people shouldn't be handling the figures unless working for the event. If you break something, or spill something, then again you should expect a repair cost, not a full replacement.

As for the car example, that's just stupid. For a start the order of magnitude in costs is a lot higher. And secondly people rarely pay from their own pocket. I'm specifically insured for accidents and determining 'fault' in a car accident is a particularly tricky thing. It's really down the the insurers to decide who is at fault but I think you'll find that unless someone is prepared to accept the blame, like it or not your insurance usually ends up paying for your own damage.

So no I don't change anything I said. Unless the person has been grossly stupid or malicious, you can't really expect anything beyond an apology. If you think you're so far in the right take them to the small claims court. I have had and seen things broken at public events, it just happens sometimes. Demanding financial recompense in most circumstances is a waste of time and also unnecessary. Rarely is anything so badly damaged that a full replacement is needed and I certainly wouldn't want to accept an offer of repair because only I want to paint my own figures.

Well stated Howard.

gunslingerpro wrote:Well stated Howard.

Poorly stated. Selfish and self-serving.

We are not talking about someone who had their stuff broken DEMANDING replacement, we are talking about the person who did the breaking offering the replacement. No one can force you to replace it but responsible adults will make the offer to clean your dry-cleaning or the expenses to repair something. Depending on the level of effort it may mean replacement. Sometimes repair cost is full replacement. Sometimes it is not. You should offer more than words when you break something. If you make a good faith attempt to fix what was done, most people are reasonable.

Howard's position is "Screw you, you are in a public place with poor inconsiderate people. You don't deserve anything but nice cheap words." Saying you deserve to expect to get your models broke is bullcrap.

Saying "Sorry, that's all I can do" Translates into "I could do more, but I am selfish and choose not to. screw off." Even paying for superglue or letting him use yours is more than "All I can do is say I am sorry." If someone at least said "I can't afford to replace or repair it but I will do whatever I can to help fix it" is better than "all I can do is say I am sorry". as that translates directly into "I don't care and don't plan to take responsibility for my actions because you can't make me."

Glad to see many people in this thread are responsible adults and take responsibility for their actions. I also see who I need to be more watchful of my personal property around some people as someone who refuses to accept responsibility for his actions is going to live his life in a more reckless manner and less aware how his actions impact others.

nkelsch wrote: I also see who I need to be more watchful of my personal property around some people as someone who refuses to accept responsibility for his actions is going to live his life in a more reckless manner and less aware how his actions impact others.

Which reminds me, nkelsch. Mind telling us where you game? I'd like to know what stores to avoid, so I won't be sued for damages by standing within a 50' radius of where someone knocked your infantry model onto the floor. *


*Gaaaaaah. Damn. Now I come off as a complete and utter ass. Which isn't far off, but still wasn't what I intended. Added laughing face to put the jovial nature into the post that was intended.

As for the actual topic, my opinion is that if it's a pretty obvious 'Whoo-oops, my bad' knocking my stuff off the table after I just did something to make you mad, I won't be happy. But if it's a friend/totally innocent 'Crap, I just backed up and my backpack bumped into your models and now... it's on the floor' then it's no big deal. Then again, most of the games I play use either 15mm resin/metal or 28mm metal figures, so having something 'shatter' isn't a big possibility.

What kind of crappy glue are you folks using that your models break when people touch them or knock them over on the table? I cant recall the last one that was broken for me.....

Again, nkelsch, nowhere in Howard's statement did I see a 'screw you.' Just because someone says they are sorry, doesn't mean they aren't deeply embarrassed and remorseful.

Again, I ask, how would you handle the situation if a younger player broke your model? One without the means or the ability to fix or replace you model? Is him offering, then you taking him up on it, then him having to say he can't better somehow?

It seems you want lip service rather than actual compassion or remorse. I cannot stand by that standard.

infinite_array wrote:

nkelsch wrote: I also see who I need to be more watchful of my personal property around some people as someone who refuses to accept responsibility for his actions is going to live his life in a more reckless manner and less aware how his actions impact others.

Which reminds me, nkelsch. Mind telling us where you game? I'd like to know what stores to avoid, so I won't be sued for damages by standing within a 50' radius of where someone knocked your infantry model onto the floor.

East coast. I do tourneys up and down the east coast.

And I never once said I would demand you replace my models. I said that I would offer replacement if I was the one who accidentally broke your models. See there is a difference. I don't demand or expect anything from people because I know there are selfish people out there. I would offer because I believe it is the right thing to do.

The OP basically said 'I said I am sorry, why did I get tanked on sportsmanship?' The person probably had the same reaction I did when 'all i can do is say I am sorry' as that is a disingenuous statement as you can do more, you are just not willing to because of rationalizations which have turned responsibility to other parties than themselves, blaming the venue or the person who had his stuff broke.

Some people out there still believe in taking responsibilities for their actions even if they are accidents. But making stuff up about how I will sue you is just as constructive. Good job there.

carmachu wrote:What kind of crappy glue are you folks using that your models break when people touch them or knock them over on the table? I cant recall the last one that was broken for me.....

I think most of the examples were things being knocked to the floor. A landraider hitting the floor from a table-top fall is going to have some damage.

infinite_array wrote:

nkelsch wrote: I also see who I need to be more watchful of my personal property around some people as someone who refuses to accept responsibility for his actions is going to live his life in a more reckless manner and less aware how his actions impact others.

Which reminds me, nkelsch. Mind telling us where you game? I'd like to know what stores to avoid, so I won't be sued for damages by standing within a 50' radius of where someone knocked your infantry model onto the floor.

He said nothing of the sort, man. Bad form on your part.

gunslingerpro wrote:Again, nkelsch, nowhere in Howard's statement did I see a 'screw you.' Just because someone says they are sorry, doesn't mean they aren't deeply embarrassed and remorseful.

Again, I ask, how would you handle the situation if a younger player broke your model? One without the means or the ability to fix or replace you model? Is him offering, then you taking him up on it, then him having to say he can't better somehow?

It seems you want lip service rather than actual compassion or remorse. I cannot stand by that standard.

Being honest saying you literally don't have the means to do it is a lot better than 'you should expect things to get broken in a public venue'. That shows zero compassion or remorse. That is lip service.

Everyone 'knows' what it takes to 'repair' a model. The OP took no responsibility and paid lip service by saying 'I'm Sorry' and doing nothing else, hence why he got tanked on sportsmanship.

Providing glue, providing paint, providing time and skills, providing access to a third party to repair it and sometimes replacement may be needed and should be offered. Telling people they should suck it up and nobody is at fault is lip service, even if you think it is in a heartfelt honest apology (which I think some people don't know the meaning of the word)

Actions speak louder than words, and people know how to do the right thing. Some people simply only care about themselves which is why they cheat at tourneys and immediately jump to 'you should expect to have your models broken if you game in public.'

But making up sad wide-eyed poor children to break models to try to prove while you are not responsible for your actions is a nice touch. If a poor little kid can't pay then a responsible adult shouldn't be expected to pay as all that matters is the bottom line. That sure sounds remorseful.

nkelsch wrote:

Howard's position is "Screw you, you are in a public place with poor inconsiderate people. You don't deserve anything but nice cheap words." Saying you deserve to expect to get your models broke is bullcrap.

Wow. Bitter much? That's not what Howard said. Howard made a reasonable post about his opinion. You're the one adding all the "color".

nkelsch wrote:Saying "Sorry, that's all I can do" Translates into "I could do more, but I am selfish and choose not to. screw off."

I didn't say "Sorry, that's all I can do." I said "All I can say is, 'I'm sorry.'" What I meant by this was, I am not going to try to explain myself or try to comfort you because it would probably cheapen what just happened to you. In fact, you probably don't want to hear much from me at all, so I'm sorry. For some reason, you've got this automatic vendetta as if I was unfeeling, uncaring and completely disrespectful to the guy. You have no idea. It is apparent that whatever you're reading here goes into your mind and comes out warped as you put your own spin on how everything went down.

nkelsch wrote: Even paying for superglue or letting him use yours is more than "All I can do is say I am sorry." If someone at least said "I can't afford to replace or repair it but I will do whatever I can to help fix it" is better than "all I can do is say I am sorry". as that translates directly into "I don't care and don't plan to take responsibility for my actions because you can't make me."

I am seriously beginning to think it is you that needs a bit of help in your social skills. Once again, the tone you're inflecting upon what happened/what I did is unfounded.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

The OP basically said 'I said I am sorry, why did I get tanked on sportsmanship?'

It's obvious you didn't fully read my OP. This thread wasn't about me - it was about what has happened to others and how they dealt with the experience. You made it about what I posted. I understand what happened, I just haven't had a chance to talk to the guy about it. But, leave it to the morally-flawless to let us dastardly scoundrels know how we should act in public.

puma713 wrote:Have you accidentally destroyed your opponent's model? How did you handle it? How did he?

I never have, and hopefully never will.

I have chipped one of my friends models, messing up the paint job. I fixed it myself.

As I only play with my friends, my answer is probably a bit biased. However, if I knocked a friends land raider to the floor and it broke in two, I'd go buy him another one.

It all depends on how much damage occured, honestly. There is no single answer to this question. If I chipped the paint, I'd offer to repaint it. If the my friend said he'd take care of it, I'd still offer a paint pot or something. They'd probably say no, but I'd still offer and be willing to make it right. If I broke an arm off and they said not to worry about it, I'd still offer them (probably just buy it and give it to them rather than ask) some glue as a small reparation.

I can't tell you what you needed to do, Puma713. I wasn't there and I didn't see the damage.

yea, "all I can say is, i'm sorry." while heartfealt, isn't going to fix my model. now that being said, offering to fix it I may not want you touching it, but the gesture is appreciated. maybe pitch in for some bits and glue to repair it.

having not broken anyone elses items as of yet, but having a few people break mine (mostly by dropping them) its just courteous to offer to repair it or supply the materials To repair it.

RE the Jeff story, I also am a former redshirt, and watching the volume of random people walk in and pick things up without asking is incredible.

one guy walks in, middle of a game, picks up a players piece. didn't ask, didn't need to. when he picked it up (I believe it was a Chaos Terminator) he squished off a few of the spiky bits, bent the sword, tried to bend back and snapped it off. the owner was just, speechless. I mean really, what do you?

having personally witnessed this, I actually made the guy purchase a replacement model for his victim. told him it was a store model.

hate me if you want for lying to him, but I wasn't going to let this guys hard work get destroyed and some ahole leave like that without atoning for it.

nkelsch wrote:

gunslingerpro wrote:Again, nkelsch, nowhere in Howard's statement did I see a 'screw you.' Just because someone says they are sorry, doesn't mean they aren't deeply embarrassed and remorseful.

Again, I ask, how would you handle the situation if a younger player broke your model? One without the means or the ability to fix or replace you model? Is him offering, then you taking him up on it, then him having to say he can't better somehow?

It seems you want lip service rather than actual compassion or remorse. I cannot stand by that standard.

Being honest saying you literally don't have the means to do it is a lot better than 'you should expect things to get broken in a public venue'. That shows zero compassion or remorse. That is lip service.

Everyone 'knows' what it takes to 'repair' a model. The OP took no responsibility and paid lip service by saying 'I'm Sorry' and doing nothing else, hence why he got tanked on sportsmanship.

Providing glue, providing paint, providing time and skills, providing access to a third party to repair it and sometimes replacement may be needed and should be offered. Telling people they should suck it up and nobody is at fault is lip service, even if you think it is in a heartfelt honest apology (which I think some people don't know the meaning of the word)

Actions speak louder than words, and people know how to do the right thing. Some people simply only care about themselves which is why they cheat at tourneys and immediately jump to 'you should expect to have your models broken if you game in public.'

But making up sad wide-eyed poor children to break models to try to prove while you are not responsible for your actions is a nice touch. If a poor little kid can't pay then a responsible adult shouldn't be expected to pay as all that matters is the bottom line. That sure sounds remorseful.

We are responsible for our actions. We have apologised which has the effect of accepting blame. And now you are saying that the people who apologise but don't automatically offer replacement/repair are cheaters?

No offence but you seem to constantly accuse people who disagree with your point of view of character faults with absolutely no evidence to back it up. You also come across as a quite unpleasant and deeply cynical person who does not believe that someone can be truly sorry unless they offer money or materials to prove it. I'm glad that none of the people I play with have this mindset. If things get broken we apologise (sincerely) and move on. We don't expect to be immediately offered compensation if it was an accident as we assume that the person who did it is feeling bad enough as it is.

The models which most people would get most upset over is conversions and if I'd spent hours on a conversion which then got broken I would not want another person fixing it. It's my prize piece so I'll fix it and make damn sure it's right. As for replacements, I have a conversion which requires pieces from several kits which would come to a total of £75 for someone to buy. That is, in my opinion, unreasonable to expect.

carmachu wrote:What kind of crappy glue are you folks using that your models break when people touch them or knock them over on the table? I cant recall the last one that was broken for me.....

Some years ago there was a metal (original) Thunderhawk doing the rounds of GW's around the UK. One of them had ended up, I believe in the Gloucester store (may have been Cheltenham).

Now those things, as you can imagine, weighed an absolute ton. So, it perhaps wasn't the best idea of one of the part-timers to put it on the top shelf of a display cabinet.
You can guess what happened, the shelf broke and the model smashed through literally every pane of glass and model on the way down.

I've seen Land Raiders literally explode when they hit the floor, it's amazing how much damage can be caused given the right (or perhaps wrong) set of circumstances, or of something hitting at exactly the wrong angle.

"All I can say is, I'm sorry"

Not true. You could have said "I'm sorry, would you like me to buy you a new one?" Or "I'm very sorry, is there anything I can do?"

nkelsch wrote:You deserved a poor score, breaking someone's model and offering zero restitution is rude and bad behavior.

"all I can say is I'm sorry" is low class. You could have offered to replace it. Most times people will say if it is no big deal, but if you were raised right you would know it is your responsibility to offer restitution and then if the person declines, it is fine.

If you break someone's model, you should offer to replace it in full or whatever it takes to restore it to whatever the person feels is "whole". Anything else shows complete lack of respect and social skills.

I might have phrased it a bit more gently, but I agree.

nkelsch wrote:

gunslingerpro wrote:Well stated Howard.

Poorly stated. Selfish and self-serving.

We are not talking about someone who had their stuff broken DEMANDING replacement, we are talking about the person who did the breaking offering the replacement. No one can force you to replace it but responsible adults will make the offer to clean your dry-cleaning or the expenses to repair something. Depending on the level of effort it may mean replacement. Sometimes repair cost is full replacement. Sometimes it is not. You should offer more than words when you break something. If you make a good faith attempt to fix what was done, most people are reasonable.

Howard's position is "Screw you, you are in a public place with poor inconsiderate people. You don't deserve anything but nice cheap words." Saying you deserve to expect to get your models broke is bullcrap.

Saying "Sorry, that's all I can do" Translates into "I could do more, but I am selfish and choose not to. screw off." Even paying for superglue or letting him use yours is more than "All I can do is say I am sorry." If someone at least said "I can't afford to replace or repair it but I will do whatever I can to help fix it" is better than "all I can do is say I am sorry". as that translates directly into "I don't care and don't plan to take responsibility for my actions because you can't make me."

Glad to see many people in this thread are responsible adults and take responsibility for their actions. I also see who I need to be more watchful of my personal property around some people as someone who refuses to accept responsibility for his actions is going to live his life in a more reckless manner and less aware how his actions impact others.

Did you even pause to wipe the foam from your mouth? This is a rather hyperbolic and emotive distortion of what I've written.

"I don't care and don't plan to take responsibility for my actions because you can't make me."

I absolutely haven't said anything like this so like most of the rest of your little rant I will pass on deigning it with a defence.

Glad to see many people in this thread are responsible adults and take responsibility for their actions. I also see who I need to be more watchful of my personal property around some people as someone who refuses to accept responsibility for his actions is going to live his life in a more reckless manner and less aware how his actions impact others.

Absurd, you don't know me or anything about the way I treat other people's property. Your post is presumptuous and offensive; accusations of irresponsibility and selfishness regarding the property of others are ignorant smears. No one who knows me would draw these conclusions about me and I doubt you would speak to my face like this.

I'm quite surprised at the judgemental vitriol aimed my way in a mild topic, but it's always easier to behave and speak to people in this manner when skulking behind a keyboard. Your internet tough guy act doesn't impress.

I don't understand why people who play a game with 'Tiny fragile extremely well painted miniatures, that require hundreds of hours of work', don't treat the table top like it's covered in 'Tiny fragile extremely well painted miniatures, that require hundreds of hours of work'.

Emerett wrote:I don't understand why people who play a game with 'Tiny fragile extremely well painted miniatures, that require hundreds of hours of work', don't treat the table top like it's covered in 'Tiny fragile extremely well painted miniatures, that require hundreds of hours of work'.

This.

And if the model breaks on a glue line, I'll offer to reassemble it. If there's a break elsewhere, I'll offer to replace the model. Saying "I'm sorry" really just isn't enough for me to feel comfortable with the situation.

Emerett wrote:I don't understand why people who play a game with 'Tiny fragile extremely well painted miniatures, that require hundreds of hours of work', don't treat the table top like it's covered in 'Tiny fragile extremely well painted miniatures, that require hundreds of hours of work'.

most of us do. its a small percentage that don't, and ususlaly its caused by people who don't realize A) the hundreds of hours of work or B) the cost in volved

It would depend on the amount of damage.
Coming apart and fixable by glue I don't think warrants a new kit.
I can't imagine enough damage to a model that isn't fixable unless someone ate it...

I think things have run their course here...