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Polonius wrote:

Joey wrote:[So it's possible to be diagnosed with Asperger's without it being "minor or trivial" and without it affecting "their ability to perform normal day-to-day activities"?

Yes.

A person with AS can take care of hygiene, walk, communicate, have superficial interactions with others, and perform nearly all non-emotionally related functions.

Then what need for a diagnosis is there? Other than a badge saying "I'm special and clever".
Either you're disabled and need help, or you're not and you don't.

Yak9UT wrote:As someone who has Aspergers syndrome I don't think its a diasabilty,

I am still capable of working and I am in no need for special help or care to live normally.

I see it as something that can be improved with pratice and training.

II may have some difficulty socially but it dosen't revolve around my life.

I am still a capable human being.

I think it's really important to remember that diseases and disorder cannot be "disabilities."

Saying "Autism isn't a disability" is like saying "guns aren't bullet holes."

It's true because the first thing can't possibly be the second. The first might cause the second.

Polonius wrote:I think you're missing my point completely.

In my experience, there can be a profound disconnect, in any disorder, between what a doctor diagnoses based on self report (or a parents report) and that person's actual functional state.

I'm not second guessing the diagnosis now, but KC's earlier comment suggested that such a disconnect occured.

Keep mind, 75% of my job is explaining to people why the government doesnt' believe them about their alleged disability. I have a pretty narrow view of the medical establishment.

Let's just say that it's not unheard of for an emotional parent to provide a history that gets a doctor (that specializes in a disorder) to diagnose that disorder. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Well if it is your job to make these assessments then I can see why you could question peoples claims. In all honesty I have sometimes have doubts too, especially with people over the net, as we have all come across at one time or another, people who make false claims (aimed at nobody in particular and not just regarding mental disability) to either troll, appear 'cool' or for some other reason. But on the other hand, there are alot of people with ASD that do not get diagnosed for years as the expressions can all be explained to be something a 'normal' person would do.

Regading the terminology, I believe the term 'disability' is correct and people shouldn't get hung up on the stigma of it, thats why PC has got utterly stupid these days. In the US it may not be used, but in the UK, 'disability' is a valid classification and is only really offensive if you chose it to be.

Just out of interest does anybody know why suffer's of tourettes chose swear words when they have an attack?

Wolfstan wrote:Just out of interest does anybody know why suffer's of tourettes chose swear words when they have an attack?

Isn't it because they can't control the angry/emotional part of the brain that deals with swear words?
Anyway what does that have to do with anything?

Wolfstan wrote:Just out of interest does anybody know why suffer's of tourettes chose swear words when they have an attack?

That is only a very rare subset of Tourettes. Most Tourettes suffers experience physical ticks rather than verbal ticks.

Bloodfever wrote:

Polonius wrote:I think you're missing my point completely.

In my experience, there can be a profound disconnect, in any disorder, between what a doctor diagnoses based on self report (or a parents report) and that person's actual functional state.

I'm not second guessing the diagnosis now, but KC's earlier comment suggested that such a disconnect occured.

Keep mind, 75% of my job is explaining to people why the government doesnt' believe them about their alleged disability. I have a pretty narrow view of the medical establishment.

Let's just say that it's not unheard of for an emotional parent to provide a history that gets a doctor (that specializes in a disorder) to diagnose that disorder. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Well if it is your job to make these assessments then I can see why you could question peoples claims. In all honesty I have sometimes have doubts too, especially with people over the net, as we have all come across at one time or another, people who make false claims (aimed at nobody in particular and not just regarding mental disability) to either troll, appear 'cool' or for some other reason. But on the other hand, there are alot of people with ASD that do not get diagnosed for years as the expressions can all be explained to be something a 'normal' person would do.

Regading the terminology, I believe the term 'disability' is correct and people shouldn't get hung up on the stigma of it, thats why PC has got utterly stupid these days. In the US it may not be used, but in the UK, 'disability' is a valid classification and is only really offensive if you chose it to be.

The whole 'concept' of ASD is that it restricts social awareness. There is no specific way it affects, but generally I would say lack of empathy and understanding body language can be a disability towards communication. Again, it is a very broad term. Oh, and there is no reason to be perdantic about it.

Joey wrote:Then what need for a diagnosis is there? Other than a badge saying "I'm special and clever".
Either you're disabled and need help, or you're not and you don't.

Bloodfever wrote:Regading the terminology, I believe the term 'disability' is correct and people shouldn't get hung up on the stigma of it, thats why PC has got utterly stupid these days. In the US it may not be used, but in the UK, 'disability' is a valid classification and is only really offensive if you chose it to be.

Well, this is where the term "disability" becomes pretty fast and loose. Which isn't shocking, because it's many words have a wide range of meanings, particualry adjectives.

I think that there is a difference between the medical and legal definitions, in which the medical definition is "a disorder that causes a functional limitation." Nearly all legal definitions tack on the words "which prevent normal activities of living (usualluy work)."

So, a person with autism might be disabled in that they are limited socially, which prevents them from reaching a theoretical "normal" level of functioning. However, they can at least make some small talk, not freak out in crowds, etc. so they have reached a more practical "minimal" level of functioning.

So, most governmental agencies focus disability resources on people that can't get through life: can't work, care for themselves, go to school, etc.

A person with AS might not be able to make emotional connections, but if they can get a job, they might be denied resources.

I don't find the term disability offensive, it's just being used far more broadly than I use in my line of work.

Joey wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Joey wrote:[So it's possible to be diagnosed with Asperger's without it being "minor or trivial" and without it affecting "their ability to perform normal day-to-day activities"?

Yes.

A person with AS can take care of hygiene, walk, communicate, have superficial interactions with others, and perform nearly all non-emotionally related functions.

Then what need for a diagnosis is there? Other than a badge saying "I'm special and clever".
Either you're disabled and need help, or you're not and you don't.

Some do, some don't. If you are impared to the point where you really can't deal with people then help may be required like a foreign dignatary needs a translator.

I can deal with people on a fairly normal basis but my ability to read emotion has been learnt in later life. I don't like dealing with people when I don't have a frame of reference for the interaction. I can seem strange and stand offish and my leg constantly twitches which annoys people after a while.

I have a VERY strong sense of fairness and get very wound up by selfishness when I see it in adults. I get overstimulated by odd things and can lose my temper for what seem to others to be nothing.

It is not a disability it is a difficulty for me but I have met some that have a really difficult time relating to the world and have to do things in a set pattern to avoid the unpleasentness that is over stimulation.

You end up avoiding things because it has a very physically unpleasant sensation. When this gets to the point where you can not function then fight or flight often kicks in.

BTW. I need a shower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wolfstan wrote:Just out of interest does anybody know why suffer's of tourettes chose swear words when they have an attack?

Not all of them do.

Tourette's is:

1 or more verbal ticks

and

2 or more physical ticks.

Which I think is where the trouble lies. Terminologies can be technically correc,t in general, or certains sectors but there is usually a problem somewhere, be it legal or the sake of 'PC'. In the UK we have a srvice called 'DLA' (Disability Living Allowance) which helps people with all types of disabilities, be it physical or mental. But as you stated, some people are not hampered by thier disorder so may not struggle to get a job, but others, with the same disorder may do, so need finacial support.
As I stated, alot of the trouble is within the sector. 'Mental Retardation' is still a used term, but only really in contained cercumstances, as it is generally frowned upon by the public. Mental disability is still one of the terms used in mental health care, but again, some people still take offence from this. It's very much a big grey area.

Joey wrote:

Then what need for a diagnosis is there? Other than a badge saying "I'm special and clever".
Either you're disabled and need help, or you're not and you don't.

To me, that is a sign of either very narrow thinking, trolling, or just being offensive.

As many of us have stated, ASD is a SOCIAL disorder. They can live very 'regular' full, self-sufficiant lives but struggle when it comes to interaction and communication with other people so for example, may just need assistance when dealing with such situations.

Sonophos wrote:

Joey wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Joey wrote:[So it's possible to be diagnosed with Asperger's without it being "minor or trivial" and without it affecting "their ability to perform normal day-to-day activities"?

Yes.

A person with AS can take care of hygiene, walk, communicate, have superficial interactions with others, and perform nearly all non-emotionally related functions.

Then what need for a diagnosis is there? Other than a badge saying "I'm special and clever".
Either you're disabled and need help, or you're not and you don't.

Some do, some don't. If you are impared to the point where you really can't deal with people then help may be required like a foreign dignatary needs a translator.

I know there are some people with AS who really struggle in society, and of course they have my sympathies.

Sonophos wrote:
I can deal with people on a fairly normal basis but my ability to read emotion has been learnt in later life. I don't like dealing with people when I don't have a frame of reference for the interaction. I can seem strange and stand offish and my leg constantly twitches which annoys people after a while.

I have a VERY strong sense of fairness and get very wound up by selfishness when I see it in adults. I get overstimulated by odd things and can lose my temper for what seem to others to be nothing.

hah, tell me about. I often find adherence to logical rules is more important than my immediate surroundings, which makes me come across as "stupid", I think things like that are just numbers though. Most people get upset by x, therefore it's socially acceptable to be upset by x.

Sonophos wrote:
It is not a disability it is a difficulty for me but I have met some that have a really difficult time relating to the world and have to do things in a set pattern to avoid the unpleasentness that is over stimulation.

You end up avoiding things because it has a very physically unpleasant sensation. When this gets to the point where you can not function then fight or flight often kicks in.

I sympathise with that, when I'm in public I'm usually listening to music and in my own little world. I can be in the middle of a crowded street and quite forget that there's other people around. I think that's why I get annoyed when I bump into someone I know, even if I like them.

Sonophos wrote:
BTW. I need a shower.

So do I, actually.

For the referrence to the milk snatcher earlier.

I see. Just curious as the post had me thinking about other conditions that people have to struggle with. As per most things, the media concentrate on a certain feature.

Wolfstan wrote:I see. Just curious as the post had me thinking about other conditions that people have to struggle with. As per most things, the media concentrate on a certain feature.

This is a constant problem. OTOH, it makes my job easier when a person fakes schizophrenia by acting like he thinks psychotics act, rather than how they actually do.

Wolfstan wrote:I see. Just curious as the post had me thinking about other conditions that people have to struggle with. As per most things, the media concentrate on a certain feature.

If you are interested in tourettes and Aspergers try http://www.touretteskaraoke.com/

It is not as insensitive as it sounds but I do give a laguage warning.

Joey wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Joey wrote:What?
In the UK, Asperger's is a disability. Why do you find this so hard to grasp? "disabled" is a legal term.

Meaning what?

Disability means at least four different things in American law.

You probably mean the word "disorder."

Hence why I said "the UK". It's a nessesary perquisite for state help/funding. If people are offended by the term "disabled", that's their problem. My mum has Parkinson's and is therefore "disabled", I'm not going to gak my breaches because someone on the internet says "parkinson's is a disability".

KingCracker wrote:Maybe its because your being an donkey-cave about it. Im sorry for misreading your donkey-cave remarks, as non donkey-cave remarks. My apologies. Pro tip though, when your being/coming off as a complete ass, specially talking about someones family, they tend to get all up in arms about it. Im not the first person to tell you something similar on DAKKA either.

Stop looking for things to be offended by. You have chosen to be offended, get over yourself.

Actually Aspergers is unlikely to merit any state help or funding on its own, be it from the DWP (DLA, where it will be disregarded) or the Local Authority (where it does not generally fulfill Fair Access to Care Criteria.) Co-morbid conditions may lead to help, but Aspergers generally gets you titty. This is not up for debate, its a fact. If it were not a fact, I would not be on the committee fighting to get people with Aspergers better support. But no doubt you know more about my own job than I do, with your vast but as yet unexplained experience?


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Joey wrote:
So it's possible to be diagnosed with Asperger's without it being "minor or trivial" and without it affecting "their ability to perform normal day-to-day activities"? Then I can't say I see the point in giving a diagnosis in the first place. Hell, one of the reasons I gave up in trying to get help at university from the NAS was because even if I had jumped through all the hoops there was actually feth all they could do to help me with my studies. .

People are perfectly entitled to seek a diagnosis for just about anything. What they then choose to do with that diagnosis is entirely up to them. If they feel they are capable of living without extra support, they can carry on regardless. Some people prefer to KNOW what they have, rather than be ignorant of it, even if they do not want actual help.

And the NAS are often complete clowns, with incredibly variable knowledge of the condition. I've heard all manner of myth spouted as fact by NAS employees, who are no doubt well-meaning, but generally ill-understanding. Very variable service. Generally Autism support is just as variable no matter who is providing it, NAS or local authority. There is a meeting in March of many Local Authorities to see if services can be brought into line with one another (amongst other things.) so that they are providing what the law states they must provide. Trying to get the NAS to attend is nearly as hard as getting the DWP to attend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Joey wrote:[So it's possible to be diagnosed with Asperger's without it being "minor or trivial" and without it affecting "their ability to perform normal day-to-day activities"?

Yes.

A person with AS can take care of hygiene, walk, communicate, have superficial interactions with others, and perform nearly all non-emotionally related functions.

Then what need for a diagnosis is there? Other than a badge saying "I'm special and clever".
Either you're disabled and need help, or you're not and you don't.

Because being superficially functional is not the same as being fully functional. Its a variable disordre, affecting different things at different times, in different ways in different people. I can tolerate frequencies of sound that send my children bat-gak crazy. They can tolerate different frequencies that make me go bat-gak crazy. We might not encounter those frequencies for months, and be "able". Then bang, up one pops and we're stuffed. And that's just hyper-sensitivity to sound.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Actually Aspergers is unlikely to merit any state help or funding on its own, be it from the DWP (DLA, where it will be disregarded) or the Local Authority (where it does not generally fulfill Fair Access to Care Criteria.) Co-morbid conditions may lead to help, but Aspergers generally gets you titty. This is not up for debate, its a fact. If it were not a fact, I would not be on the committee fighting to get people with Aspergers better support. But no doubt you know more about my own job than I do, with your vast but as yet unexplained experience?

Fact?? It's not a fact, if it was a fact, I wouldn't have been able to help somebody with ASD get a sucessful DLA claim, which I did.

I've processed a successful child's disability claim based on food allergies.

That doesnt' make a later claim any less likely. It's not impossible, just unlilkely, which is all that Arbeits said.

Severity means more than diagnosis.

Bloodfever wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Actually Aspergers is unlikely to merit any state help or funding on its own, be it from the DWP (DLA, where it will be disregarded) or the Local Authority (where it does not generally fulfill Fair Access to Care Criteria.) Co-morbid conditions may lead to help, but Aspergers generally gets you titty. This is not up for debate, its a fact. If it were not a fact, I would not be on the committee fighting to get people with Aspergers better support. But no doubt you know more about my own job than I do, with your vast but as yet unexplained experience?

Fact?? It's not a fact, if it was a fact, I wouldn't have been able to help somebody with ASD get a sucessful DLA claim, which I did.

Generally. As mentioned several times, its a spectrum disorder with variable symptoms. Generally Aspergers in its own will not merit a DLA reward. You can receive DLA without any sort of diagnosis at all of anything, but if you send in a form that says "I have Aspergers", you will get the verbose and officialese version of the response "We don't care." This does not mean that people with Aspergers cannot get DLA for co-morbid disorders, or for particularly strong symptoms of things like hyper-sensitivity, but generally speaking it will not get you DLA. It is even less likely to get someone the DLA replacement PIP when it is introduced.

So yes, its still a fact. Bully for you helping a fellow out, but there are plenty of people with ASD that get feck all, especially if they don't have anyone to help them. It's part of my job to find them support, and argue their case to the authorities. Not easy when all you hear from Social services is "But they don't meet FACCs, so they must be fine."

what I don't get, and cannot stand is why sites like /tg/ boards and such have this thing where they feel the need to bash people with aspergers, as though they themselves are perfect. it's always gotten under my skin.

We'll if we are going to be pedandic about this, you stated "(DLA, where it will be disregarded)" and you stated "or the Local Authority (where it does not generally fulfill Fair Access to Care Criteria.)" therefore you stated it was local authority where it does not generally reward financial aid. You claimed DLA will be disregarded. Also, the DLA was given because he has ADS, nothing else. So no other afflictions, or mental disorders, JUST because he has aspergers, and I don't think me assisting helped achieve DLA in his favour at all, it was him who spoke to the service to set up the aid so for all they knew he was doing it unassisted. But thats a moot point to be honest as you claim to be helping others too but have not had as much sucess. I think you may just be disheartened by this therefore assuming it is not possible.

Bloodfever wrote:There is a reason there is such a high number of people with ASD that are fully self sufficiant in society; because they are very much 'normal', but struggle with socialisation, which many people without ASD do aswell. I can pretty much guarantee you have met many people without ASD and have not even known.

People with AS have a very noticeable, and particular difficulty with socialization once a certain age is reached. I played football with a guy with AS, and have known several other people with AS, they were noticeably distinct from people that were merely awkward. Awkward people can be taught how to socialize, and understand why certain conventions exist but lack enough practice to properly leverage them, people with AS cannot, and do not.

Bloodfever wrote:
KC himself said she had been diagnosed so there was no reason whatsoever to question that, as you said, it is family that should really know the most.

That's not true. There are issues of social pleasantries that arise, but often people that are the closest to an issue are the least qualified to assess it. Its sometimes called the mortician's dilemma. Basically, people that hold an emotional stake in an issue, be it the final resting place of their loved one, or the reality of their child's health, are easily influenced by pleasing language.

In essence, they hear only what they want to.

Of course, none of us have any insight into the situation of KC's niece. I'm merely explaining the general principle.

remilia_scarlet wrote:what I don't get, and cannot stand is why sites like /tg/ boards and such have this thing where they feel the need to bash people with aspergers, as though they themselves are perfect. it's always gotten under my skin.

They bash it because of the high self-diagnosis rate.

remilia_scarlet wrote:what I don't get, and cannot stand is why sites like /tg/ boards and such have this thing where they feel the need to bash people with aspergers, as though they themselves are perfect. it's always gotten under my skin.

I suspect a bit of self-deprecation. I make fun of fat neckbeards, in spite of being a fat neckbeard myself.

dogma wrote:

Sonophos wrote:Autism and asperger's syndrome are thought to be related but are not the same. Aspies are able to operate fairly normally but have some noticeable symptoms of autism.

Even if we're talking about the autism spectrum as a whole (And, admittedly, I didn't know what remilia was referencing.) its like 6-8 per 1000; far less than 1 in 3.

Statistics are funny. My favorite was for some herpes drug saying 1/4 people have herpes........really? I'm not a foil hat wearer but it really seams the medical establishment (mannnn) over diagnosis people just to sell drugs and treatments. (God I sound like one of those hippies, I want to kill myself)

Cold-sores are a manifestation of a type of Herpes, so it's not that unbelievable...

Albatross wrote:Cold-sores are a manifestation of a type of Herpes, so it's not that unbelievable...

The rate is actually more like 60%, though that's only HSV-1.

HSV-2 is the one people generally think of when they think of herpes.

You seem to know a lot about herpes.





Interesting.

I had a buddy that was diagnosed with Aspergers, great guy, really intelligent, but just awkward. It always seamed that social norms were not intuitive to him but given time he figured out how he is supposed to act. Music really helped him a lot and he picked up the Bass guitar and joined a band, that helped him interact with people. His math skills were phenomenal and he got a full ride to Princeton, he even worked with John Nash with Game theory stuff. He is now the head game theory professor at a large university. He is still a little off, but he recognized what was going on and forced himself into social situations. He met a great girl who understood him and also forced him to be social and taught him how to be "Civilized". I still catch him doing weird things every now and then.

He was really quite entertaining in his teens as he had very little understanding of social norms and we would catch him doing the weirdest stuff, not for attention, but just because social conventions really made no sense to him and he really did not know any better. So many great stories. Great guy.

I remember this one time I took him to a gym because he really wanted to go and this hot instructor was showing us all the new equipment, she made this really disgusting face. There was my buddy nonchalantly wiping a bugger on this brand new equipment. When I looked at him, he made his classic "I f'd up didn't I" look. He looked at the machine and said "Probably should not have done that huh?" Needless to say we never joined that Gym.

Andrew1975 wrote:His math skills were phenomenal and he got a full ride to Princeton, he even worked with John Nash with Game theory stuff. He is now the head game theory professor at a large university.

Which university?

If he works with game theory, I probably know him, or know of him.

dogma wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:His math skills were phenomenal and he got a full ride to Princeton, he even worked with John Nash with Game theory stuff. He is now the head game theory professor at a large university.

Which university?

If he works with game theory, I probably know him, or know of him.

I'm not sure I want to out him. He's pretty normal now. His first name is Tim, he's in his mid 30s